|
btw I think the Prime Directive is maybe the worst bit of Star Trek lore, on account that it doesn't really work as an idea in the context of the show and even the movies, and is usually used as an excuse not to share infinite resources or protect people from humanitarian catastrophes. This is exemplified by Picard taking an arrow instead of bothering to treat less advanced societies like thinking adults. That episode ends with "And maybe one day, eons from now, you will be allowed to be like us. Bye forever!" It boggles my mind that it's considered a classic TNG episode by a lot of people. I'm by no means the first person to take umbrage with the PROBLEMATIC elements of the Prime Directive, of course. It's loving terrible.
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 10:10 |
|
|
I like the Eddington episode where he's showing Sisko all the poor starving women and children at the Maquis base to gain sympathy for their cause. That wasn't one of their original colonies, it's some hideout they built during their little war. It's totally their own fault that they are in this situation, if they would stop murdering Cardassians for five minutes they could probably find somewhere nice to live.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:21
|
|
|
Picard took the arrow so the dude would realize he was mortal and not a god, despite repeated attempts to explain that this was the case. The Prime Directive was definitely interpreted in an increasingly hosed way as the show and the franchise progressed, but I'd point to the one with Worf's half bro as the problematic one what with the crew standing by and watching an entire people die of a natural disaster
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:26
|
|
|
Met posted:Avery Brooks not wanting the absence to last very long because it doesn't look good for a black father to abandon his wife and kids... meant nothing to the STO folks so he's still MIA 40 years later. Seriously, gently caress that game. Maybe this is me being too cynical, but I feel like the DS9 writers never intended for him to come back even after Brooks voiced his concerns.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:28
|
|
|
Tighclops posted:Picard took the arrow so the dude would realize he was mortal and not a god, despite repeated attempts to explain that this was the case. The Prime Directive was definitely interpreted in an increasingly hosed way as the show and the franchise progressed, but I'd point to the one with Worf's half bro as the problematic one what with the crew standing by and watching an entire people die of a natural disaster Riker arguing in Pen Pal that silent and anonymous intervention was wrong because there might be some sort of ~*cosmic plan*~ was also insane. That kind of bizarre absolutism shouldn't be part of Star Trek, but I do think there needs to be a "hey don't go around meddling with societies or announcing yourself as the Archangel Gabriel to the locals" rule involved.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:31
|
|
|
The Prime Directive is a perfectly good idea in theory both in universe and out. Different writers have wildly varying executions of the concept, though, and the best way to handle it is to just pretend the versions of it you don't like didn't happen.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:33
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:The Prime Directive is a perfectly good idea in theory both in universe and out. Different writers have wildly varying executions of the concept, though, and the best way to handle it is to just pretend the versions of it you don't like didn't happen. It's a shame all the Prime Directive episodes are bad, then. Tighclops posted:Picard took the arrow so the dude would realize he was mortal and not a god, despite repeated attempts to explain that this was the case. The Prime Directive was definitely interpreted in an increasingly hosed way as the show and the franchise progressed, but I'd point to the one with Worf's half bro as the problematic one what with the crew standing by and watching an entire people die of a natural disaster The episode is full of Picard being cartoonishly reluctant to explain anything to them and further exacerbating the issue by constantly attempting to use involved subterfuge plots to deceive them. And it begins with "We are secretly monitoring them," which is in itself morally questionable. If you don't want to get involved, don't be involved. Name Change fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Dec 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:50
|
|
|
Using advanced predictive algorithms, calculate which planets will soon be hit by meteorites and sell vacation homes to Starfleet Admirals on those planets. When they discover the incoming asteroids, inform them that it would be a violation of the Prime Directive to stop the meteorites as there is a small colony of bacteria you just discovered on the far side of the planet and its just be their destiny to get wiped out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 00:52
|
|
|
Pwnstar posted:I like the Eddington episode where he's showing Sisko all the poor starving women and children at the Maquis base to gain sympathy for their cause. That wasn't one of their original colonies, it's some hideout they built during their little war. It's totally their own fault that they are in this situation, if they would stop murdering Cardassians for five minutes they could probably find somewhere nice to live. There is nothing good about anything involving Eddington because they scraped the bottom of the goddamned barrel when they cast him and then later he's the leader of the Maquis and has to quote Les Miserables and his line delivery has all the elegance of a high school production of Into the Woods. gently caress Eddington.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:20
|
|
|
On the other hand, Avery Brooks as Javert is something that really needs to happen by now.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:24
|
|
|
nerdman42 posted:On the other hand, Avery Brooks as Javert is something that really needs to happen by now. You're not even a little bit wrong.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:25
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Riker arguing in Pen Pal that silent and anonymous intervention was wrong because there might be some sort of ~*cosmic plan*~ was also insane. Gah, I forgot about that, at least they decided to go against the rule and do something to save Data's friend. You're right that weird moral absolutism shouldn't be a part of Star Trek. Life itself is an exercise in exceptions. dont even fink about it posted:It's a shame all the Prime Directive episodes are bad, then. I don't understand how you missed the part of that episode where he beams one of the aliens up to his ship and literally explains that he comes from a more technologically advanced society? I mean yeah sure I'm not saying you can't question the logic or the ethics of the duckblind mission or the subsequent rescue of of the Federation scientist but dude come on. Rhyno posted:There is nothing good about anything involving Eddington because they scraped the bottom of the goddamned barrel when they cast him and then later he's the leader of the Maquis and has to quote Les Miserables and his line delivery has all the elegance of a high school production of Into the Woods. Eddington was awesome and I love it when Trek bad guys start quoting literary poo poo, it classes up the joint. I sentence you to watch "Krull" on repeat for 47 viewings.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:25
|
|
|
I always excused Eddington's sort of odd/bad acting because the character him self was acting. He was a bored starfleet officer playing the role of the freedom fighting rebel hero, his whole life was a ridiculous act.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:26
|
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:Woah woah woah. Star Trek from TNG onwards had some of the highest budgets on TV But it wasn't UNLIMITED, therefore...
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 02:16
|
|
|
Pwnstar posted:I like the Eddington episode where he's showing Sisko all the poor starving women and children at the Maquis base to gain sympathy for their cause. That wasn't one of their original colonies, it's some hideout they built during their little war. It's totally their own fault that they are in this situation, if they would stop murdering Cardassians for five minutes they could probably find somewhere nice to live. The Federation was literally just going to relocate them to wherever they wanted and provide as much or as little assistance as they wanted. The Maquis make no sense at all because the Federation is always written to be way too utopian and perfect.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 03:51
|
|
|
Lowen SoDium posted:Kira was always devout with her religious beliefs but having her leave her military career and eventually become Kai is so out of character for her it's ridiculous. Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Maybe this is me being too cynical, but I feel like the DS9 writers never intended for him to come back even after Brooks voiced his concerns.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 04:36
|
|
|
quote:I don't understand how you missed the part of that episode where he beams one of the aliens up to his ship and literally explains that he comes from a more technologically advanced society? I mean yeah sure I'm not saying you can't question the logic or the ethics of the duckblind mission or the subsequent rescue of of the Federation scientist but dude come on. Taking one person aboard the ship and elocuting at them like they are a child while running dangerous covert ops on the ground was definitely the mature play there. Really it's a story that points out how dumb the Prime Directive is and takes shots at Picard's personality, both deliberately and not so deliberately. I struggle to visualize Kirk loving everything up that badly, for example. Rather than justify or even explain the Prime Directive, the episode just brings to the forefront how ridiculous it is, and it only gets worse as Star Trek goes on. The Prime Directive isn't moral, it's an absolutist directive codifying that the Federation only cooperates with and assists civilizations when there's something there worth co-opting (space age+ technology). It's the most colonialist element in a series with a lot of that going on under the hood. It puts the lie to the idea that the Federation is a wondrous space collective where everyone works in harmony, and in its own way in TNG begins the transition to DS9 dystopian-lite storytelling. Historically in the show the Directive is enforced very loosely, especially by people who are not Picard, and in general it doesn't make any sense. Name Change fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Dec 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 06:04
|
|
|
Wait! First Contact! The episode, not the movie. That one was real good.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 06:09
|
|
|
dont even fink about it posted:Taking one person aboard the ship and elocuting at them like they are a child while running dangerous covert ops on the ground was definitely the mature play there. Really it's a story that points out how dumb the Prime Directive is and takes shots at Picard's personality, both deliberately and not so deliberately. I struggle to visualize Kirk loving everything up that badly, for example. Kirk supplied archaic weapons to one side of a conflict in a never ending proxy war against a Klingon backed equivalent. He was literally the shithead from that first season Next Gen ep who was taking anti aging drugs.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 06:25
|
|
|
dont even fink about it posted:The Prime Directive isn't moral, it's an absolutist directive codifying that the Federation only cooperates with and assists civilizations when there's something there worth co-opting (space age+ technology). It's the most colonialist element in a series with a lot of that going on under the hood. It puts the lie to the idea that the Federation is a wondrous space collective where everyone works in harmony, and in its own way in TNG begins the transition to DS9 dystopian-lite storytelling. Historically in the show the Directive is enforced very loosely, especially by people who are not Picard, and in general it doesn't make any sense. Of course I get a lot of this from the novel 'Prime Directive,' which was TOS-era. And also explicitly said 'federation starships are allowed, indeed required, to redirect comets and so forth on the Down Low if they detect imminent extinction events not caused by local action.'
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 06:46
|
|
|
I wish there were even more episodes explicitly about the issues with the Prime Directive. Some sort of rule like that is necessary and so beholden to situational discretion that it's a veritable well of Moral Monologue Fodder.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 06:55
|
|
|
Knormal posted:They didn't, Avery Brooks had them add the "but I'll be back" line over the previously mentioned concerns about being an absentee black father. I know that, but what I meant was that even after Avery Brooks voiced his concerns and the writers agreed to insert the line, I bet the writers were thinking to themselves "yeah okay, Sisko might *say* it, but he's not actually going to come back."
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 06:57
|
|
|
I get that the absent black fathers thing is a stereotype, but wasn't Jake nearly eighteen anyway? I think their past the potential Cats in the Cradle stages.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 06:59
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:I get that the absent black fathers thing is a stereotype, but wasn't Jake nearly eighteen anyway? I think their past the potential Cats in the Cradle stages.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 07:10
|
|
|
Nessus posted:I feel like the core idea of the Prime Directive is an attempt to compromise between the obvious moral impetus to try and help the people who are suffering, and the historical problems, challenges and abuses which have come from that. The cultural diversity argument is understandable if weird but could be taken as the Vulcan contribution to the concept. (I imagine there is also the emergent narrative fantasy of 'perhaps that's why *we* in real life haven't been contacted yet - yet...') Hell, the TOS episode The Paradise Syndrome has the Enterprise burning out her engines trying to divert an asteroid that's about to smash a non-industrial civilization, and not one person raised the Prime Directive there. That's part of why I single out TNG when it comes to the Prime Directive, because their "oh no we mustn't save these people even though they'd have no idea it was us and they never had any chance to address this catastrophe themselves" is not only completely insane but also directly contradicted by TOS. The 1960s had a better take on the Prime Directive than the 80s/90s. remusclaw posted:Kirk supplied archaic weapons to one side of a conflict in a never ending proxy war against a Klingon backed equivalent. He was literally the shithead from that first season Next Gen ep who was taking anti aging drugs. It's not quite equivalent because in Kirk's scenario, absent his intervention, the Klingon-backed side would have quickly overrun and enslaved or annihilated their opponents. The interference has already happened, the war is already on, and absent Federation action an entire culture and society will be destroyed. There were no Klingons or other outsiders interfering on the planet that Jameson supplied arms to. Carnas demanded weapons in exchange for the hostages, and Jameson interpreted the Prime Directive to mean that as long as his actions didn't disrupt the balance of power, he could accede to Carnas's demands and buy him out with the weapons... while also providing the same weapons to his opponents. Jameson could have said "gently caress off, we don't negotiate with terrorists" and while he probably wouldn't have gotten the hostages released, he also probably wouldn't have triggered a forty year civil war which left the planet under a single military dictatorship.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 07:12
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:I get that the absent black fathers thing is a stereotype, but wasn't Jake nearly eighteen anyway? I think their past the potential Cats in the Cradle stages. Kasidy was pregnant with Sisko's unborn child.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 07:13
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Hell, the TOS episode The Paradise Syndrome has the Enterprise burning out her engines trying to divert an asteroid that's about to smash a non-industrial civilization, and not one person raised the Prime Directive there. That's part of why I single out TNG when it comes to the Prime Directive, because their "oh no we mustn't save these people even though they'd have no idea it was us and they never had any chance to address this catastrophe themselves" is not only completely insane but also directly contradicted by TOS. But the entire point of Kirk's actions in A Private little War is the preservation of both sides, which is why he provided flintlocks instead of phasers. Kirk specifically decided that the best solution was endless war rather than either side being victorious. I do admit some bafflement as to why the Klingons are playing it so softly in the first place. There are no real reasons for them to limit the firepower they provide their side, and further the fact that they have a side at all is weird as it seems more in character for them to just take the whole place by force, it's not like the people there have any way to fight them off. I chock that up more to the Klingons being stand ins for the Soviets in that story than anything else. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Dec 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 07:20
|
|
|
remusclaw posted:But the entire point of Kirk's actions in A Private little War is the preservation of both sides, which is why he provided flintlocks instead of phasers. Kirk specifically decided that the best solution was endless war rather than either side being victorious. Maybe he was hoping that the two sides could eventually come to some sort of peace agreement down the line if they both had somewhat clunky weapons as opposed to giving one side super-tech and just having them straight up genocide their opponents?
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 07:30
|
|
|
remusclaw posted:But the entire point of Kirk's actions in A Private little War is the preservation of both sides, which is why he provided flintlocks instead of phasers. Kirk specifically decided that the best solution was endless war rather than either side being victorious. The biggest reason to not simply hand out disruptors is so that when the Klingons eventually move in and take over after the locals have done the dirty work, they always have a massive technology and firepower advantage themselves.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 07:33
|
|
|
Bob Quixote posted:Maybe he was hoping that the two sides could eventually come to some sort of peace agreement down the line if they both had somewhat clunky weapons as opposed to giving one side super-tech and just having them straight up genocide their opponents? Nah, he does explain it in the episode. Power surpassing wisdom already nearly destroyed humanity, and the Federation has made it a point not to bring that about on other worlds. The Klingon's have no such compunctions however. Either way, the episode is all about justifying proxy wars. Farmer Crack-rear end posted:The biggest reason to not simply hand out disruptors is so that when the Klingons eventually move in and take over after the locals have done the dirty work, they always have a massive technology and firepower advantage themselves. True enough I guess. The Klingons are a good deal more capable of being sneaky bastards in TOS as compared to later, but again, I honestly don't see why they bother in this case. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Dec 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 07:33
|
|
|
remusclaw posted:But the entire point of Kirk's actions in A Private little War is the preservation of both sides, which is why he provided flintlocks instead of phasers. Kirk specifically decided that the best solution was endless war rather than either side being victorious.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 07:37
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Kasidy was pregnant with Sisko's unborn child. Oh yeah, I always forget about that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 07:39
|
|
|
One of the main problems with the Prime Directive basically comes to fore in that episode. Sure, we would like to avoid imperialism, and no justifying it on the basis of being a civilizing force either, but no other power is compelled to abide by the directive. Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, and the rest, all of them are free to float around as they please, scooping up pre warp civilizations as the see fit. The Fed can only do so much, and with the other side not playing by their rules, the Fed either has to break the rules themselves or live with the fact that non interference means the other side gets to interfere in their stead. The Klingons in that episode have no reason not to keep escalating. I mean yeah, they dont what it to be a tough fight when they decide to move in, but it's not like they have to jump straight to giving them disruptors, there is a whole couple centuries worth of arms to give them that will still be brushed aside easily by them when they want to move in. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Dec 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 07:46
|
|
|
remusclaw posted:One of the main problems with the Prime Directive basically comes to fore in that episode. Sure, we would like to avoid imperialism, and no justifying it on the basis of being a civilizing force either, but no other power is compelled to abide by the directive. Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, and the rest, all of them are free to float around as they please, scooping up pre warp civilizations as the see fit. The Fed can only do so much, and with the other side not playing by their rules, the Fed either has to break the rules themselves or live with the fact that non interference means the other side gets to interfere in their stead. You know, it might literally be spheres, when you think about it. All these 2D maps of the Federation and so on are probably useful for illustration purposes, but there's no reason you couldn't have a space-nation that claims a big U-bend chunk in one spiral arm and thus appears, from a certain angle, to be two completely separated and fully-engulfed sectors.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 07:51
|
|
|
Nessus posted:Well, with civilizations in their spheres of influence. I imagine the Federation has fought at least one war to prevent some clever-dick interstellar power from trying to create a client state among some hapless globboids in their claimed space-territory. Oh I don't doubt they fight it, but you cant easily put the cat back in the bag. Non interference has to be a constant thing, its way easier to interfere than it is to stop people from interfering. You basically have to watch such civilizations constantly just to make sure some Ferengi don't stop by and strip mine the planet or whatever. It's a losing battle unless you convince everyone else to play by your rules. Space is curiously 2 dimensional in Trek. How many ships would you need to protect something like the neutral zone? How many would you need just to watch it? Borders in space really make little sense at all, as the best you could ever really hope to secure is the area around planets and stations. It would be more like massive allied collections of city states. The scale inherent to protecting whole areas of space is insane. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Dec 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 07:55
|
|
|
remusclaw posted:Oh I don't doubt they fight it, but you cant easily put the cat back in the bag. Non interference has to be a constant thing, its way easier to interfere than it is to stop people from interfering. You basically have to watch such civilizations constantly just to make sure some Ferengi don't stop by and strip mine the planet or whatever. It's a losing battle unless you convince everyone else to play by your rules. You also run into the problem of how to stop outside communication with such civilizations because it really doesn't need physical interference to do huge damage. That's why in my opinion in a universe like Star Trek's there wouldn't be anything between pre-industrial and warp civilizations (or just for a very short time). Once a civilization reaches the industrial age it would notice what's going on out there, one way or another.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 09:40
|
|
|
I keep laughing every time they do a panning shot of Voyager flying around because it looks like its got a big happy face on it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 10:41
|
|
|
Pwnstar posted:I keep laughing every time they do a panning shot of Voyager flying around because it looks like its got a big happy face on it. Space Trowel
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 10:49
|
|
|
dont even fink about it posted:Taking one person aboard the ship and elocuting at them like they are a child while running dangerous covert ops on the ground was definitely the mature play there. Really it's a story that points out how dumb the Prime Directive is and takes shots at Picard's personality, both deliberately and not so deliberately. I struggle to visualize Kirk loving everything up that badly, for example. She was tripping balls at the doors and even after the obvious hut allegory she still didn't quite understand that Picard didn't have power over life and death until she watched one of them die in sickbay. The one where Riker has to bang Frasier's alien wife to escape actually shows what I think you wanted to see, with a more "level" meeting between the Federation people and the alien species. Not the part where Riker bangs his way to freedom, I mean when Picard and the aliens meet formally and yadda yadda Who Watches the Watchers is not one of the bad Prime Directive episodes. Star Trek is a lot of the Age of Sail in space so of course there are going to be obvious colonialist overtones, hopefully newer versions are less lovely about that? Curious, if DS9 is "dystopia-lite" than where are we living right now? I'm not saying the portrayal of the Federation is 100% consistent or positive (like anything else on these shows) or that there's no room to examine the roots and principals of the thing, but I'm baffled and mildly alarmed by this need a lot of people seem to have to see the Federation as this quasi dystopian nightmare regime. remusclaw posted:Kirk supplied archaic weapons to one side of a conflict in a never ending proxy war against a Klingon backed equivalent. He was literally the shithead from that first season Next Gen ep who was taking anti aging drugs. The original idea for this episode involved that admiral literally being Kirk
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 12:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 10:10 |
|
|
remusclaw posted:
It's pretty funny when Voyager has to go through some hazardous nebula or something because it would add years to their journey to go around and then they show a 2D representation of the nebula to illustrate their point.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 14:05
|
|
