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Right wing nationalism is a global plague that's going to kill all of us. 
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Dec 8, 2016 09:00
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angel opportunity posted:The PRC thinks that Japan should have to apologize for WWII several times per year. It's not enough to apologize a few times, they have to just continually apologize for the rest of history. They're trying to make US readers think Japan is so evil for not apologizing, but they don't realize that no significant portion of Americans would think or even care if Japan apologized for something that happened so long ago and is so loving irrelevant as of today.
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Dec 8, 2016 09:13
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Well, that's because there's no reason for such sentiment. And not just because the population of Japan would have been decimated through starvation, suicide, sickness and slaughter if the atom bombs hadn't forced a capitulation.
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Dec 8, 2016 09:15
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Dec 8, 2016 09:43
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I'm not sure why Japan would need to apologize for Pearl Harbor specifically, to be honest. For stupid pointless poo poo like the Bataan Death March, sure, but Pearl Harbor is a pretty unambiguous military target. I acknowledge that I have a different perspective than some, though, and I'm willing to respectfully disagree.
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Dec 8, 2016 09:50
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The fact that it happened before the Japanese formally declared hostilities (Which is kind of a war crime, I think, but it's late and it might just be super rude) but to be fair that was mostly because they hosed up the communique unintentionally.
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Dec 8, 2016 10:07
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Attacking without declaring war is pretty lovely from a global political perspective but it's more something you're made to pay extra for in the peace conditions than something you have to apologise for years later.
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Dec 8, 2016 11:05
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WarpedNaba posted:The fact that it happened before the Japanese formally declared hostilities (Which is kind of a war crime, I think, but it's late and it might just be super rude) but to be fair that was mostly because they hosed up the communique unintentionally. It was indeed an administrative gently caress up rather than an intentional war crime. Admittedly it was a risk they ran as they wanted the element of surprise, had war been declared an hour before the attack it probably wouldn't have been materially different and I'm not sure that it would have changed the psychological impact significantly either. The letter of the law wouldn't have been violated but the spirit of the 'law' would have been the same. The Japanese did horrific poo poo but Pearl was pretty standard military action in a war of aggression.
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Dec 8, 2016 11:49
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We should have bombed Japan more.
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Dec 8, 2016 12:02
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Higsian posted:Attacking without declaring war is pretty lovely from a global political perspective but it's more something you're made to pay extra for in the peace conditions than something you have to apologise for years later. It's also a little odd to care this much about Japan doing it in this one instance when you see how many undeclared wars (I'm sorry, "military interventions") have been happening since the end of WW2. I'm not talking about just the USA, just to be clear.
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Dec 8, 2016 12:14
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https://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/china-says-it-has-places-japanese-leaders-should-visit-to-pay-tribute-to-war-victimsquote:China says it has places Japanese leaders should visit to pay tribute to war victims
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Dec 8, 2016 12:33
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Whenever this talk always comes up, everybody seems to love to gloss over that the Japanese people had no agency during WWII, had no idea what went on until the war ended, and lived on the brink of starvation from the 1920's until they lived with real starvation in the 40's. It's not like they could do anything, let alone even vote for someone who wasn't a militarist after most left wing parties were banned after full male enfranchisement and the military started killing or silencing anyone who offered an alternative to the pseudo-fascism that grew in the 30's within Japan. The German people democratically elected the Nazis and allowed them to continue until they were unstoppable. To accuse the Japanese people as a whole of being culpable for what transpired is like holding the German people responsible for WWI because Japan was pretty much under the same governmental system but with a more authoritarian power structure, more limits on democracy, and a food crisis. This isn't to say they were victims or that apologies shouldn't be given by the nation as a whole, they have been multiple times, but people need to stop pretending that Japan was a liberal democracy like it is today and the actions of the Japanese electorate led to the rise of the military there. Japan paid for the war too with the firebombings and the degradations of the occupation. The Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China (http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/china/joint72.html) also absolved Japan of any war reparations and Japan donated very heavily to the Chinese until very recently in the form of a development fund so it's not like Japan is currently dreaming of taking China down a peg like China's propaganda machine shows them doing every day on TV. The Chinese government only cares because it's a distraction from the corruption and economic problems facing the Chinese people today.
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Dec 8, 2016 13:25
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:Whenever this talk always comes up, everybody seems to love to gloss over that the Japanese people had no agency during WWII, had no idea what went on until the war ended, and lived on the brink of starvation from the 1920's until they lived with real starvation in the 40's. It's not like they could do anything, let alone even vote for someone who wasn't a militarist after most left wing parties were banned after full male enfranchisement and the military started killing or silencing anyone who offered an alternative to the pseudo-fascism that grew in the 30's within Japan. Thanks for this. This is what's currently reoccurring in Japan.
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Dec 8, 2016 13:34
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:Whenever this talk always comes up, everybody seems to love to gloss over that the Japanese people had no agency during WWII, had no idea what went on until the war ended, and lived on the brink of starvation from the 1920's until they lived with real starvation in the 40's. It's not like they could do anything, let alone even vote for someone who wasn't a militarist after most left wing parties were banned after full male enfranchisement and the military started killing or silencing anyone who offered an alternative to the pseudo-fascism that grew in the 30's within Japan. This doesn't really support Japan being totally different to Germany and therefore being less responsible. Especially when the Germans also used the "we ordinary people had no idea what was going on, honest" to dodge responsibility for a few decades.
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Dec 8, 2016 14:00
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WarpedNaba posted:The fact that it happened before the Japanese formally declared hostilities (Which is kind of a war crime, I think, but it's late and it might just be super rude) but to be fair that was mostly because they hosed up the communique unintentionally. I think the only thing to potentially apologize for is a sneak attack, but that's pretty much standard in warfare, so probably not. Some points: Americans may have a different perspective vs China because eventually America exacted a measure of satisfaction by beating the Japanese Army/Navy to a pulp, conventionally bombing the Japanese homeland and then nuclear bombing the Japanese homeland. Then it had unconditional surrender and could basically dictate what it wanted. China and Korea never had this opportunity. Accusations about the current populace not understanding Japan's role are kind of pointless. The real measure is whether this generation of leadership is likely to incite an aggressive war again like what happened in WWII. I think everyone can unequivocally agree that Japan passes this measure. At the end of the day this is what really counts. Everything else boils down to "oh but do you feel guilty enough". Which is kind of pointless and counterproductive.
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Dec 8, 2016 14:01
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How about apologizing for starting a war in the first place ? I actually like the Chinese demand to come visit the memorial places in china and other countries; German presidents/chancelors have done so a lot and this has helped with reconciliation a lot. I do think we Germans overdo the whole thing a bit. Sometimes I feel like were proud of having been the best at being evil, and this is why nothing can be compared to the holocaust.
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Dec 8, 2016 14:20
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Abe would never do it but a Japanese PM coming to pay respects at Nanjing would certainly be a good thing for them to do. I am sure China would find something to nitpick to claim it wasn't a real apology but who knows, maybe it'd help.
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Dec 8, 2016 14:41
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Stringent posted:Thanks for this. This is what's currently reoccurring in Japan. Well, Abe has governed in a remarkably centrist manner considering his first term back in 06 and how hard people pulled the fascist alarm in 2012 when he came back to power. Like when Fillon wins the French presidency next year Abe will very probably be the most liberal G8/G7 leader behind Merkel, he's really not any different than May or Fillon. He's been committed to free trade, has actually carried out a fair amount of reforms on increasing women's' participation in corporations and government, and hasn't actually done anything major to roll back reconciliation with Korea or China or promote revisionism. Really the only criticism you can make of his administration is a bill that cracked down hard on whistleblowers and leakers of classified information, but even on the freedom of the press front the guy he put in charge of the NHK who caused everyone to freak out because he said essentially "as public broadcaster we do what the government tells us" on record, was voted out of his chair by the other members. He's still a Nazi shithead in terms of his personal beliefs, but when the rest of the developed world is electing people like Trump, May, Fillon, etc, Abe starts to look a whole lot less turd-like http://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20161202/p2a/00m/0na/017000c quote:Before becoming NHK president in January 2014, Momii was a vice president at trading firm Mitsui & Co., then president of Nihon Unisys Ltd., and then a special adviser to that company. Momii set off alarm bells almost immediately when, at his inaugural news conference as NHK chief, he stated that the public broadcaster "cannot very well say 'left' when the government says 'right'" regarding international broadcasts. Later comments also stirred controversy, as did Momii's use of NHK funds to hire a car to go golfing, for which he later reimbursed the broadcaster, earning him a total of three warnings from the board of governors over his conduct as president. shrike82 posted:Given that the Japanese have wiped out any mention of the wartime atrocities that they committed in WW2 and most Japanese youth don't know the poo poo that the country pulled, it's rich to say that the Japanese have done what they needed to. That's not actually true http://news.stanford.edu/pr/2014/pr-memory-war-asia-040414.html quote:Japan You can criticize the public narrative of the war, for being a left wing pacifist narrative that blames the military bureaucracy and not a liberal one that blames the Japanese public as a whole, but no, the textbooks are not revisionist and are factually accurate. Like I don't know why people keep insisting on this idea that the Japanese schools teach children to lust for the blood of Chinese and Koreans, it's demonstrably untrue and it seems more that the facts are accurately presented and people don't really give a poo poo for other reasons? MonikaTSarn posted:How about apologizing for starting a war in the first place ? Grand Fromage posted:Abe would never do it but a Japanese PM coming to pay respects at Nanjing would certainly be a good thing for them to do. I am sure China would find something to nitpick to claim it wasn't a real apology but who knows, maybe it'd help. Three Japanese PMs have gone to Nanjing. Not while in office, but still. The last one did it right after Abe got elected as a gently caress you to him basically http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/18/world/asia/japan-hatoyama-china/ quote:He is the third former Japanese prime minister to visit the memorial, following predecessors Toshiki Kaifu and Tomiichi Murayama. The tribute for Chinese victims stands in contrast to visits by Japanese officials, including Prime Minister Shinzo Abe and predecessor Junichiro Koizumi, to the controversial Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo, which is dedicated to Japan's war dead, including war criminals. icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 14:43
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It's a nice gesture on a personal level but the fact that they couldn't do it in an official capacity says all you need to know about Japanese politics vis-a-vis WW2 war crimes or comfort women. And textbooks only listing events and dates and not explaining stuff like Unit 731 is an absolute travesty.
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Dec 8, 2016 14:50
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I think it's less useful to genuflect oneself about things other people did decades ago than to grapple with how the same authoritarian forces are currently rising worldwide. What good is yet another apology from Japan if they continue down the course of re-militarization? Actions speak louder than words.
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Dec 8, 2016 14:57
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^^ It would obviously have to be more than a one-time event to really mean anything, yes.icantfindaname posted:Three Japanese PMs have gone to Nanjing. Not while in office, but still. The last one did it right after Abe got elected as a gently caress you to him basically That still seems like it's a far-cry from, say, Willy Brandt kneeling in front of the Warsaw Ghatto Uprising memorial.
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Dec 8, 2016 15:01
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:This doesn't really support Japan being totally different to Germany and therefore being less responsible. There's actually plenty of evidence that the German people knew that mass killings were going on in the East and that Jews were being deported to their deaths. You can't really make that argument for people on an archipelago separated from the conflict zone. The crimes committed by the Japanese were more small scale and localized but happened on such a scale that people assume it was a mass campaign. The average Japanese army soldier was a few steps away from a child soldier in terms of conditioning and the violence is a result of that conditioning and a system that disregarded human rights for their own people, not an industrialized campaign of mass murder. I would also question the narrative that Germans dodged responsibility for decades. Former Wehrmacht generals attempted to dodge blame for decades but that doesn't speak for German society as a whole. These men were held up by the conservative, anti-communist establishment in the West because they were fighting communists but this doesn't speak for the German people as a whole, who had a good idea of what went down. EDIT: Unit 731 is a special case because the US and USSR gave them immunity for their data and the information known for years was very limited. Most of what we know about them comes from their testimony, purposely limited, and what has recently been found in archives in China. The Japanese government allegedly doesn't even have access to the information because it's in US, Russian, and Chinese archives but has acknowledged that it's a big deal. RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 15:05
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shrike82 posted:It's a nice gesture on a personal level but the fact that they couldn't do it in an official capacity says all you need to know about Japanese politics vis-a-vis WW2 war crimes or comfort women. Well, your initial claim was that all mention of wartime events was wiped from textbooks, soooo. And that doesn't say they don't explain Unit 731? Definitely still criticize the Japanese public's attitude in general, but if the textbooks are factually accurate I don't see that big a problem with that aspect in particular? Like the tone and narrative should be better, but insufficiently strident tone is a lot different from "book full of revisionist lies"
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Dec 8, 2016 15:15
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I find the entire thing to be tiresome. China will never move on as they don't want to. They care more about the propaganda value above all else. Screaming kill all Japanese isn't going away no matter what happens short of revolution in China and even then the movies aren't going away over night. One day they will be viewed as quaint, that day is not today.shrike82 posted:It's a nice gesture on a personal level but the fact that they couldn't do it in an official capacity says all you need to know about Japanese politics vis-a-vis WW2 war crimes or comfort women. Nothing will satisfy you as you don't care about that. You just want to bash that piñata. If you really cared about injustice, look no further than the Trump administration where you have the chance of punching real fascists just like the olden days. The increased defence spending by Japan is a direct result of Chinese actions. Wouldn't you spend more if your neighbour is getting increasingly aggressive? The whole SCS situation pretty much screams Chinese aggression. Even Vietnam is getting weapons from the US to boaster their defence against China. Again, China is not interested in dealing in good faith and I can't blame anybody in the area who wants to increase spending to counter an obvious threat.
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Dec 8, 2016 15:30
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What are some instances of China apologizing for stuff it did as the PRC, to other nations or to their own people? Just curious if there is any significant apologies from them.
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Dec 8, 2016 15:38
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Higsian posted:Attacking without declaring war is pretty lovely from a global political perspective but it's more something you're made to pay extra for in the peace conditions than something you have to apologise for years later. It's been a long time since I've read up on the pacific war, but I believe that it's always been the Japanese's navy's intention to deliver the war declaration minutes before the bomb drops, thus satisfying international protocol of war on one hand, leaving American too little time to defend themselves on the other. Whether the declaration arrive before or after would make no difference on the amount of damage. The idea that you have to declare war before attacking is how wars are traditionally fought in the west, but not in the far east. During the sengoku period, all the daimyos are constantly watching their neighbours for suspicious movements. You were sneak attacked? It's your fault for not watching. I think Japan also did the last minute declaration strategy against the Russian in the Russo-Japanese war. Back to the issues of apologies. I would say all three countries are complicit in prolonging all the WW2 grievances. It's absolutely true that both China and Korea annually demands the same apology from Japan as a political leverage, always playing the poor suffering victims and diverting attentions from their domestic problems. So no matter how many times they apologize, the same demand pops up every year. Sometimes from the government, sometime from civilian group who cries that they never received any apology or reparation. Nor does Japan help their own case whenever the prime ministers do their annual visits to Yasukuni shrine, known for interring war criminals that were tried and executed in the Tokyo war trial. The closest analogy would be a graveyard in Germany where all the nazi war criminals were buried, and Merkel makes annual pilgrimage there to pay her respect to the dead, accompanied by the press and all her cabinet, because that's what she has to do to gain support from the conservative parties. Media jumps on that and the whole cycle repeats.
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Dec 8, 2016 15:42
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symphoniccacophony posted:The closest analogy would be a graveyard in Germany where all the nazi war criminals were buried, and Merkel makes annual pilgrimage there to pay her respect to the dead, accompanied by the press and all her cabinet, because that's what she has to do to gain support from the conservative parties. Media jumps on that and the whole cycle repeats. Funny story, Helmut Kohl literally tricked Reagan into visiting a cemetery with SS officers buried in it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitburg_controversy
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Dec 8, 2016 15:47
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apologists like ohhboy wringing their hands saying nothing will ever satisfy the victims when the bar has been set so low there're a bunch of complete steps that the japanese government can take to atone for WW2 war crimes - 1) monkasho to set a mandatory curriculum detailing the war time atrocities that the japanese committed 2) official declaration by abe or some future PM that Yasukuni is a cemetary for war criminals and he/she will cease visiting it 3) an official tour of a couple war crime sites such as Nanjing by the PM with an apology i can't wait to hear why these things are bad
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Dec 8, 2016 15:57
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I feel like those things would be good for Japan. The Japanese government doing as much Vergangenheitsbewältigung as Germany does is good. I don't think most of us are really focusing on whether that would be good or bad. The point is that even if Japan did all of those things, China would simply frame it back as something like: "Look at weak little Japan begging to us on their knees! What is their true intention behind this facade of weakness? Are they trying to put us off guard so we will slow our rise? Is this a prelude to a Pearl Harbor style sneak attack on China?" I think educating the populace about past atrocities so they never happen again is a good thing, and maybe a future Japanese government will take that more seriously. The key thing for me is that I think most modern Japanese people would be receptive to something like this and feel bad about it. With China, you'd have to do like comprehensive de-brainwashing for probably a few generations to get them to actually feel bad about anything or to see Japan as something other than evil rapist dogs.
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Dec 8, 2016 16:32
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Fake edit: AO pretty much covered what I wanted to say far better.
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Dec 8, 2016 16:38
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angel opportunity posted:What are some instances of China apologizing for stuff it did as the PRC, to other nations or to their own people? Just curious if there is any significant apologies from them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RQwR7F_EPw This video is the closest any Chinese leader has ever come to publicly acknowledging, let alone apologizing for, the Tiananmen Square massacre. The relevant bit is right at the end, when Deng says, approximately: "On those matters where we have not done enough, we can try a little harder."
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Dec 8, 2016 18:01
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Japan should apologise to the Chinese people for all deaths and suffering inflicted as a result of their policies and actions as soon as the Chinese Communist Party apologise for the fall out of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution and Tianmen . Also when they apologise to the people of Hong Kong for sponsoring state terrorism against them during the Cultural Revolution. I should add that Japan did majorly horrible poo poo, they have dealt with it in a manner that shows more a sense that others have a legitimate grievance than what I would see as contrition. They made reparations to Korea (although the dictator just hushed the whole thing up) and have apologised for selective elements of their crimes against China. They could do more but the problem with something, such as a Japanese PM visiting Nanjing, is that China is so poised to exploit the issue for maximum propaganda value that I would expect the whole event to be stage managed with crowds of protestors and probably something like a tearful old lady 'managing' to break through the security cordon and get tackled by the Japanese security guards showing that the Japanese are really still out to attack the Chinese people. Yes that's literally pulling scenarios out of my rear end but China has shifted the goalposts on Japanese apologies and raised it as points in response to unconnected issues. It is a propaganda tool for the CCP and any Japanese leader would have to be wary of playing into it. I think they could be doing more and sometimes they're dumbheaded about honouring traditions that have terrible, terrible optics but the idea that they don't give a gently caress and have never apologised or acknowledged their crimes is pure CCP propaganda.
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Dec 8, 2016 19:03
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MrNemo posted:Japan should apologise to the Chinese people for all deaths and suffering inflicted as a result of their policies and actions as soon as the Chinese Communist Party apologise for the fall out of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution and Tianmen . Also when they apologise to the people of Hong Kong for sponsoring state terrorism against them during the Cultural Revolution. I think governments apologizing to their own people is a different ball game than one country apologizing to another.
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Dec 8, 2016 19:12
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This is the most luridly racist thread in D&D. White nerds are too afraid to bash black people but apparently aren't afraid enough of Asian people to refrain from the outright hatred and contempt
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Dec 8, 2016 19:46
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Peven Stan posted:This is the most luridly racist thread in D&D. White nerds are too afraid to bash black people but apparently aren't afraid enough of Asian people to refrain from the outright hatred and contempt
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Dec 8, 2016 20:44
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Change 'opium' to 'e-cigs' and you're not far off.
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Dec 8, 2016 20:44
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Mozi posted:Change 'opium' to 'e-cigs' and you're not far off. Though I guess the picture of the outlander with the "missus" is more of a SE-Asia thang, it might fly here. Then we could all talk together about our mutual loathing and hatred of China and possible make vile plans to hurt the glorious CCP, possibly via internet rumourmongering
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Dec 8, 2016 20:49
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:There's actually plenty of evidence that the German people knew that mass killings were going on in the East and that Jews were being deported to their deaths. You can't really make that argument for people on an archipelago separated from the conflict zone. The crimes committed by the Japanese were more small scale and localized but happened on such a scale that people assume it was a mass campaign. The average Japanese army soldier was a few steps away from a child soldier in terms of conditioning and the violence is a result of that conditioning and a system that disregarded human rights for their own people, not an industrialized campaign of mass murder. I know there is plenty of evidence the Germans knew about atrocities and exactly why I brought it up: the 'we didn't see nothing' defence was apologist garbage when applied to Germany and it is the same when applied to Japan. There is absolutely no way a population which has been indoctrinated into its own racial superiority in this manner did not on some level have an awareness endorse its leadership's violence. It also makes no sense you are attempting to absolve ordinary Japanese of responsibility by arguing that they were indoctrinated (poor victims of their own government!) who committed localized atrocities of their own volition, and that this is less bad than the more top down direction of the Nazis. I don't think it is useful to get in a pissing match over whether Nazis or ww2 Japanese were worse but trying to defend one by reference to the other is always pretty disgusting.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:06
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Peven Stan posted:This is the most luridly racist thread in D&D. White nerds are too afraid to bash black people but apparently aren't afraid enough of Asian people to refrain from the outright hatred and contempt I too believe that the Communist Party of China is representative of "Asian people" generally, ask me about my hard-on for autocratic rule and about the orientalism that I'm too stupid to realize is influencing my opinions.
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Dec 8, 2016 23:33
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I'm not sure why but he's been posting anti-whitey messages in every Asia related thread recently.
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Dec 8, 2016 23:35
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