|
who cares about the families who have to schedule who doesn't get to eat for the week, ugh, they're probably racsexist bernie bros e: bernie porn
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 05:15 |
|
|
Tatum Girlparts posted:yea gently caress it who cares that the president is a crazy white nationalist surrounded by conspiracy nuts and neo-nazis. Yeah, because that's totally what people ITT have been saying and not "Maybe we should try harder to concern ourselves with the things that white people voted for Trump for" This thread is about what the Democrats need to do long term to succeed, if we can't touch on the fact that we lost because we refused to appeal to the majority of voters in this country then I don't really see the point of the discussion. I can personally think of a liberal way to present every issue that Trump succeeded on this election and it doesn't require me to involve exclusionary behavior, discriminatory practices, etc. Hillary chose not to pursue those voters, they were never lost to her outright. Mirthless has issued a correction as of 18:27 on Dec 8, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:21
|
|
|
Anime Schoolgirl posted:the gop is aiming for that part first, actually AFAIK, they are going hard for HSA's which is pretty much what the Dems wanted as well. But Trump and many other's think the pre-existing conditions component is a good part of Obamacare. But maybe I'm wrong, it's pretty much impossible to be sure of what will happen in Trump's first 100 days.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:27
|
|
|
Mirthless posted:I can personally think of a liberal way to present every issue that Trump succeeded on this election that doesn't involve exclusionary behavior, discriminatory practices, etc. Hillary chose not to pursue those voters, they were never lost to her outright.  Powercrazy posted:AFAIK, they are going hard for HSA's which is pretty much what the Dems wanted as well. But Trump and many other's think the pre-existing conditions component is a good part of Obamacare. But maybe I'm wrong, it's pretty much impossible to be sure of what will happen in Trump's first 100 days. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:27
|
|
|
Trump won in spite of the weird pepe white nationalism poo poo, not because it. Tons of lower class people aren't racist and are turned off by that poo poo, but not to the extent where they won't vote for a guy who gives them some vague hope of healthcare or a reasonable job. The only part of that poo poo that actually helped Trump was the fact that the Clinton campaign spent all their time talking about that instead of anything possibly good about her.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:27
|
|
|
Everyone is racist to some extent but the mere act of voting for Trump is enough to rise above the background noise imo
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:28
|
|
|
Powercrazy posted:AFAIK, they are going hard for HSA's which is pretty much what the Dems wanted as well. But Trump and many other's think the pre-existing conditions component is a good part of Obamacare. But maybe I'm wrong, it's pretty much impossible to be sure of what will happen in Trump's first 100 days. I think the pre-existing conditions component is going to stay. I'd be very surprised if they removed it, it's one of those things they are going to posture about a lot but it would be a total loving disaster for them in 2018 when all of those people with chronic health conditions that developed in the last eight years discover their conditions are no longer covered by their insurers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:29
|
|
|
Modus Pwnens posted:Everyone is racist to some extent but the mere act of voting for Trump is enough to rise above the background noise imo Hey, cool, but you still have to get some of those racists to side with you in four years if you don't want to see Trump run thru 2024.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:31
|
|
|
Anime Schoolgirl posted:"we only lost 5% to the vote abstained abyss each year, we're still good!!!!!!" I don't know what you're trying to say. I'm saying that an analysis that says working class voters of all races abandoned us when it was just white working class voters is pretty wrong. Arizona and Texas didn't move 5% closer to Dems because voters in top hats showed up.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:31
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:I don't know what you're trying to say. I'm saying that an analysis that says working class voters of all races abandoned us when it was just white working class voters is pretty wrong. Arizona and Texas didn't move 5% closer to Dems because voters in top hats showed up.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:33
|
|
|
Mirthless posted:Hey, cool, but you still have to get some of those racists to side with you in four years if you don't want to see Trump run thru 2024. you mainly just need to run a candidate that gets the democrats to vote, though, because the idea of D voters going R was actually a vastly over-stated thing, when really it was just D voters not showing up and the same R voters showing up just fine. We don't actually have to win much of any of those people.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:34
|
|
|
comingafteryouall posted:when you know you've screwed over people and have little actual accomplishments that don't come with huge caveats, it's hard to run a campaign without focusing on attacking your opponent. Bleh, she could have at least lied and then blamed the republicans when she inevitably failed like she was going to do anyway. I just don't understand the constant need for people to "call out" bad opinions or whatever. It seems extremely unproductive especially in campaign since all you are going to do is get people who already agree with you. It doesn't change anyone's mind.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:34
|
|
|
In retrospect, we probably shouldn't have made fun of "Trumped up Trickle Down" At the very least, it was actually saying that Trump's policies would be bad for America economically. As opposed to just "Trump bad man, you like Trump you bad man too"
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:34
|
|
|
Mirthless posted:the medicaid expansion was such a garbage part of that law that it should be printed out and pasted on every garbage can in America medicaid isn't perfect by any means but millions of poor people have access to low cost care instead of nothing because of it!
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
Tatum Girlparts posted:you mainly just need to run a candidate that gets the democrats to vote, though, because the idea of D voters going R was actually a vastly over-stated thing, when really it was just D voters not showing up and the same R voters showing up just fine. We don't actually have to win much of any of those people. Turnout in 2016 was higher than 2012. We lost because we ran a candidate that Americans wanted to win less, not because Democrats didn't show up. Stop looking for somebody else to blame. "you mainly just need to run a candidate to get The Democrats (that unchanging monolith that it is) to vote" is like the most 2016 thing ever said We literally ran a candidate on the idea that they'd be more likely to get people to vote for them in swing states and then we lost nearly the entire Dem rustbelt firewall in the process. The whole point of Hillary winning the primary was building that enthusiasm in Florida and Ohio, remember? (oh, oh, and Blue Arizona! And Blue Texas! Who needs Michigan to win?)
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:medicaid isn't perfect by any means but millions of poor people have access to low cost care instead of nothing because of it! I have one friend who 100% is probably gonna die if that bit gets hosed with too bad, and a few that are just gonna be in real bad situations like 'constant debilitating pain' and all. They'll be happy to know it was actually total garbo they should be happy to lose in a couple months!
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:36
|
|
|
anyone ever just have that  clinton lost the fkn general election to donald trump in 2k16 random realization that just stops u in ur tracks as the thought pings its way around ur brain like a pinballwhat the h*ck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3JA1nWPFqM
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:37
|
|
|
Mirthless posted:Hey, cool, but you still have to get some of those racists to side with you in four years if you don't want to see Trump run thru 2024. approximately 26% of the voting eligible country voted for trump. even if every single trump voter were a bleached in the wool klan member it would still be possible to win elections without appealing directly to a single racist
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:36
|
|
|
Mirthless posted:Turnout in 2016 was higher than 2012. overall turnout was down, ballots were up
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:37
|
|
|
Venuz Patrol posted:approximately 26% of the voting eligible country voted for trump. even if every single trump voter were a bleached in the wool klan member it would still be possible to win elections without appealing directly to a single racist Tatum Girlparts posted:overall turnout was down, ballots were up These things have both played out and been proven wrong as the totals have been added up. It seemed to be true a couple of weeks ago, it is not true anymore. Turnout was higher in 2016 than it was in 2012. More than half the country voted. You can pretend 62 million people didn't vote for Trump, or that those 62 million people don't matter, but you're not doing yourself or your causes a service in doing so.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:38
|
|
|
Mirthless posted:These things have both played out and been proven wrong as the totals have been added up. It seemed to be true a couple of weeks ago, it is not true anymore. Do you have a source on this?
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:38
|
|
|
Modus Pwnens posted:Everyone is racist to some extent but the mere act of voting for Trump is enough to rise above the background noise imo Not everyone is racist, don't treat racism like some kind of modern-day Original Sin dogma. Additionally voting for Trump doesn't immediately make you "unclean" anymore then voting for Obama "purified" your conscience. Dems need to realize that they aren't entitled to anyone's votes, regardless of how "bad" the other guy or his supporters are.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:39
|
|
|
docbeard posted:Do you have a source on this? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/11/15/1600158/-Surprise-Voter-turnout-in-2016-likely-higher-than-2012 http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-voter-turnout-wasnt-way-down-from-2012/
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:41
|
|
|
Mirthless posted:These things have both played out and been proven wrong as the totals have been added up. It seemed to be true a couple of weeks ago, it is not true anymore. sure, turnout was up. it can still go higher. people who didn't vote are a better target for democratic gotv initiatives than republicans. republicans don't stand for democratic values
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:44
|
|
|
Venuz Patrol posted:sure, turnout was up. it can still go higher. people who didn't vote are a better target for democratic gotv initiatives than republicans. republicans don't stand for democratic values ...You still don't get it It's like you just can't comprehend the idea that somebody who was a Democrat in 2012 might have voted for Trump in 2016 2016 was not about voter turnout! It wasn't even about "who showed up". It was about the difference in messaging between the two candidates. We had an entirely average turnout for an election and while Trump lost the popular vote, he still only lost it by two points. And all the popular vote margins in the world won't change the fact that Trump still beat her in four states that were supposedly as safe as it gets we also almost lost Minnesota, the one state that never voted for Reagan.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:44
|
|
|
Tatum seems sort of like the nerdy type so I'm gonna try a software analogy. RACISM and XENOPHOBIA are the language Trump's message is coded in, but the output of his software is the promise of people being happier with their lives. It is ugly, it is not broadly compatible, the UI is poo poo and it has no accessibility features, but it works, more or less, at it's primary job, when it does work - delivering the promise of a better life. Some people have really strong language preferences, most people care a bit, but are primarily concerned with the output being correct. TOLERANCE and PROGRESS are the languages of choice for the Democrats, and that's some good poo poo. But they are not using it to write good software. They are not using it to write software that delivers a promise of people being happier with their lives. They are often so focused on the language of the software and how elegant the code and design is, that many people are unsure of what they would use it for. It certainly doesn't seem to address their central problem of wanting a better life, or if it does it's not in a manner they can figure out how to use. The Democrats get really confused when their program fails to dominate the obviously hacked together, ugly TrumpSoft program. Enter the socialists. They say they understand why customers are frustrated with the Democrats, and that they want to deliver the same end message as Trump, and the current Democratic coders flip the gently caress out and say they want nothing to do with RACISM and XENOPHOBIA, because those are horrible languages! The leftists try to explain that they do not want to use RACISM and XENOPHOBIA, that they believe we can achieve the same results coding in TOLERANCE and PROGRESS and point to a previous, prominent Democratic winner who wrote a piece of software that did very well by delivering many of the same features TrumpSoft did, but the old guard democrats can't seem to grasp that, focused on the idea that any attempt to build feature parity must intrinsically involve using the worst language. Worse, they seem to believe that anyone who preferred TrumpSoft must themselves have a preference for RACISM and XENOPHOBIA, and they condemn those customers as uncultured plebians that aren't worth appealing to if they don't understand the glory of the superior tech stack, rather than realizing that these people are simply using the software as a means to an end and many would actually prefer (or at least could be convinced to use) a similar piece of software written in TOLERANCE and PROGRESS if it was available. Also, when the socialists complain about the quality of the Democratic software and how it doesn't do what people want it to, they are met with responses talking about how elegant the data structures are and how extensible the program is and it's got 100% test coverage as if any of that actually matters in a piece of software that is failing to accomplish what should be it's primary goal. Some of these socialists begin to suspect that maybe the software the Dems have been building isn't actually for the customer at all... maybe it's actually for the advertisers, and a lot of the "mistakes" in the design that make the program so much less than it could be aren't actually mistakes after all... Anyway thank you for reading my programming analogy, I don't know enough about cars to make a car analogy but hopefully that makes everything perfectly clear and we can all gasp in unison at what it has revealed unto us.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:45
|
|
|
Tatum Girlparts posted:why did almost none of these hope starved voters for change support outsiders like Stein? I thought 3rd party votes were up significantly, to the point where Hillary people wanted to blame Stein/Johnson for costing her the election?
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:46
|
|
|
For a better explanation see the orwell quote where he explains how if you don't give people a convicning socialist answer to their problems they're going to go looking until they find a fascist one. Non-fascist answers exist so it might be a good idea to push that poo poo instead of pretending the problems are unsolvable simply because they aren't your problems so you don't actually want to solve them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:49
|
|
|
Fidel Cuckstro posted:I thought 3rd party votes were up significantly, to the point where Hillary people wanted to blame Stein/Johnson for costing her the election? If they're up, then the reason they are up was because Hillary was a bad candidate.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:49
|
|
|
Fidel Cuckstro posted:I thought 3rd party votes were up significantly, to the point where Hillary people wanted to blame Stein/Johnson for costing her the election? They were, and Tatum has
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:49
|
|
|
3rd party votes were up but it overwhelmingly damaged trump more than clinton, not that it mattered
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:50
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:3rd party votes were up but it overwhelmingly damaged trump more than clinton, not that it mattered yep, lol If it wasn't for Gary Johnson HIllary would have lost loving Minneosta Reagan took 49 states. He didn't take Minnesota.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:51
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:Tatum seems sort of like the nerdy type so I'm gonna try a software analogy. I don't know poo poo about programming my dude
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:51
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:3rd party votes were up but it overwhelmingly damaged trump more than clinton, not that it mattered the bernie diehards and workers groups just stayed home
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:51
|
|
|
Tatum Girlparts posted:You don't have a goddamn clue what you're talking about because your platform seems to shift every few months depending on what gives you the best chance to smugly yell at others. gently caress at least guys like mr pink space marine are consistent, I don't know what the gently caress you believe because your main value seems to be 'I'm actually smarter and more aware than all of you troglodytes'. But yes, please rub my face more in the poo poo that's literally killing my family, I had no idea poverty was an issue until a woke liberal on the internet told me so. btw I'm late to address this but I thought I should Rigidity and inflexibility is kind of your thing Tatum but I guess you could call me a "flip flopper", as in, a person who adjusts their world view based on the available information around them and changing circumstances When my bad world views don't work out or when somebody suitably shows me they are bad views I don't hold on to them! That's why I'm not trying to sit here and say "I was right, Whites Really Are Racists  " when we just lost an election to orange clown hitler on the "we don't need whites to win thanks to shifting demographics" strategy
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:53
|
|
|
Tatum Girlparts posted:I don't know poo poo about programming my dude you can have good things without doing bad things
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
Anime Schoolgirl posted:pretty much. the psychotically antivax people (of which there are suprisingly many) who would have voted for trump went to stein and neoconservatives/moderates who hated hillary went for johnson purely because he wasn't openly racist I was a bernie diehard abd I voted for Clinton cause i was loving terrified of trump idk man 
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:55
|
|
|
Mirthless posted:btw I'm late to address this but I thought I should yea all those times I called people flip floppers, ya got me
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:56
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:you can have good things without doing bad things What the gently caress?
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 05:15 |
|
|
Pollyanna posted:you can have good things without doing bad things
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 18:57
|
|