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Condiv posted:He's a member of the not-at-all shadowy cabal that controls the Democratic Party. We typically refer to this cabal as "the establishment " The loving guy was the Republican mayor of New York, who was super into Stop and Frisk and was at the forefront of trying to push ask the poor people out of New York City. And people thought it was a good idea to run him in a prime time speaking slot at the DNC! And posters defended it as a great idea, defended it a great move abs complaining about all the racist BernieBros, while talking about how giving a billionaire mayor who implemented a bunch of racist policy was a good thing. For all that wing of the party bitches about the left wanting to play purity games, they have no loving problem threatening to take their ball and go home if they don't get their way.
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Dec 8, 2016 19:02
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Shbobdb posted:We shouldn't blame "white people" for Trump. We should blame the Irish and make sure they can't influence future elections by keeping them out of politics. Actually, it was apparently Italian ancestry that was the strongest predictor of Trump support at the county level among white ethnics.
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Dec 8, 2016 19:12
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KomradeX posted:And how many campaign people on the ground there were telling them things aren't good and they need help and Brooklyn loving ignored them because their heads were so far up their rear end they didn't why to hear anything bad. We don't know, because that's exactly the type of thing that's going to be really, REALLY over-reported in the wake of a loss. What information did these "people on the ground" actually have? Like, the whole point of polls is that, under normal conditions, they cut through whatever biases you have to get a real sample - we made fun of Romney in 2012 for not believing the polls, we really shouldn't turn around in 2016 and make fun of Hillary for believing them. And again, we really need to figure out exactly WHY they missed, because they're the only tool we have with significant resistance to bias. theflyingorc fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 19:12
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I think Walker winning three elections in Wisconsin should have been enough information to know that there was at least a potential problem in that area.
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Dec 8, 2016 19:15
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Radish posted:I think Walker winning three elections in Wisconsin should have been enough information to know that there was at least a potential problem in that area. Isn't half the problem that Wisconsin has midterm governor elections?
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Dec 8, 2016 19:18
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Hobologist posted:So, is coal doomed or not? You still haven't told me. I agree that coal is doomed and I support channeling those people into infrastructure projects and other blue collar work instead of the Obama/Clinton idea of "retraining" and the pipe dream that 45 year old miners can do a pivot into computer engineering with an itt tech degree Edit: you could also do the same thing in the rust belt and pivot all of the decaying factories into green energy powerhouses, but I'm comfortable in saying I have no idea what that project would look like I don't understand if this was supposed to be some sort of "gotcha" or not but a racist ran on this in the democratic party and took those states from THE IRON ABUELA, but that isn't gonna stop your kvetching about how unrealistic it is to campaign on that anyways Business Gorillas fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 19:20
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HannibalBarca posted:Actually, it was apparently Italian ancestry that was the strongest predictor of Trump support at the county level among white ethnics. 
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Dec 8, 2016 19:31
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Take the shovels from the coal miners, and them give them shovels to fill potholes
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Dec 8, 2016 19:32
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Calibanibal posted:Take the shovels from the coal miners, and them give them shovels to fill potholes Look at this bozo who has zero idea about the blue collar work mentality lmao
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Dec 8, 2016 19:35
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theflyingorc posted:We don't know, because that's exactly the type of thing that's going to be really, REALLY over-reported in the wake of a loss. How about you had union organizers telling them that et m there was a distinct lack of support for her in places, or that we ask read the article about the guy in charge of Latino Outreach that was given no budget, or that the Michigan party had to raise their own money to go out and canvass for Clinton! What the gently caress is the point of all that money she raised if she's not going to spend it on that poo poo. Or Christ how we were all told that she was great for down ticket races and than she left them high and dry. The signs were all there that this was going to be a disaster. Remember the constant chorus of "show me the map" and "Pennsylvania isn't really a swing state." Or how Nate was giving credence to polls that showed Hiliary losing when he shouldn't have. They're comes a point when you have to admit this wasn't some unforeseeable event, people warned this could happen and cited her unpopularity and perception of being dishonest as huge problems and anyone that brought these up were shouted down. The Democrats fell into confirmation bias this election even when they had other Democrats telling them this isn't looking good
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Dec 8, 2016 19:41
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Even if coal miners wanted to retrain to be computer programmers and radiologists there are only so many of those jobs. Moving all blue collar workers into specialized fields like that isn't going to work just like how newly graduated lawyers are living with their parents because everyone though that degree was a ticket to success but there just aren't enough jobs to fill. We need to stop acting like "unskilled" labor is some sort of failure since they are often doing the most important jobs in society. We need janitors a hell of lot more than we need more people with hospital management degrees. The big issue is that a large amount of Americans have no problem working blue collar jobs, they just want to do it for a decent salary with job security. If that's gone for good then were are really hosed since those people aren't just going to disappear and will continue to vote for increasingly bad candidates that promise them what they want. KomradeX posted:How about you had union organizers telling them that et m there was a distinct lack of support for her in places, or that we ask read the article about the guy in charge of Latino Outreach that was given no budget, or that the Michigan party had to raise their own money to go out and canvass for Clinton! What the gently caress is the point of all that money she raised if she's not going to spend it on that poo poo. Or Christ how we were all told that she was great for down ticket races and than she left them high and dry. The signs were all there that this was going to be a disaster. Micheal Moore predicted it months in advance. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 19:44
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KomradeX posted:Remember the constant chorus of "show me the map" and "Pennsylvania isn't really a swing state." Or how Nate was giving credence to polls that showed Hiliary losing when he shouldn't have. They're comes a point when you have to admit this wasn't some unforeseeable event, people warned this could happen and cited her unpopularity and perception of being dishonest as huge problems and anyone that brought these up were shouted down. The Democrats fell into confirmation bias this election even when they had other Democrats telling them this isn't looking good
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Dec 8, 2016 19:48
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KomradeX posted:How about you had union organizers telling them that et m there was a distinct lack of support for her in places, or that we ask read the article about the guy in charge of Latino Outreach that was given no budget, or that the Michigan party had to raise their own money to go out and canvass for Clinton! What the gently caress is the point of all that money she raised if she's not going to spend it on that poo poo. Or Christ how we were all told that she was great for down ticket races and than she left them high and dry. The signs were all there that this was going to be a disaster. I'm also not talking about overstating things on Something Awful, which definitely happened. That doesn't change the fact that the use of the word "hubris" to describe the Clinton campaign is ridiculous on its face. They played the game in a way that appeared to be logical to win, but missed important things and were wrong. We should learn from those things, of course, but the idea that it was just SO SIMPLE is entirely dependent on hindsight. edit: Yes, Michael Moore was correct. If you try to tell me that we all should have had the foresight to assume Michael Moore was the voice of reason in the room I'm going to disagree.
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Dec 8, 2016 19:49
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Radish posted:Even if coal miners wanted to retrain to be computer programmers and radiologists there are only so many of those jobs. Moving all blue collar workers into specialized fields like that isn't going to work just like how newly graduated lawyers are living with their parents because everyone though that degree was a ticket to success but there just aren't enough jobs to fill. We need to stop acting like "unskilled" labor is some sort of failure since they are often doing the most important jobs in society. We need janitors a hell of lot more than we need more people with hospital management degrees. This especially I've never understood, decorum and reasonableness kill good policy before it gets support. Why does no populist run on "Coal is bad for the environment and bad for your bodies; we're not going to burn it anymore and I will loving pay you all to spend the rest of your lives putting the mountains back where we found them"? And I mean literal "fiery stump speech with the occasional punchy swear", the people who work with their hands for a living will RESPOND
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Dec 8, 2016 19:55
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The Groper posted:This especially I've never understood, decorum and reasonableness kill good policy before it gets support. Because nothing is less politically popular than "the thing you used to do was bad". Seriously, people will vote against you immediately if you imply that anything they did in the past wasn't good and correct to do.
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Dec 8, 2016 19:56
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theflyingorc posted:I'm not sure you have a basic understanding of how much information comes across a campaign's desk. the facts were there, and ignored, and the relevant question is how and why the Democrats, party of sneering at rightwingers for 'unskewing' polls into a narrative they would prefer to reality, spent milions of dollars to ignore those facts and spin their own parallel fictional election that fell apart on November 8. Anyone making this about how they totally called it is a loving moron, but if you're still running down the laundry list of things the Clinton campaign did right like someone's gonna go oh my bad and retroactively award her the Presidency if you repeat the theory enough times you're just wasting everyone's time. Radish posted:Even if coal miners wanted to retrain to be computer programmers and radiologists there are only so many of those jobs. Moving all blue collar workers into specialized fields like that isn't going to work just like how newly graduated lawyers are living with their parents because everyone though that degree was a ticket to success but there just aren't enough jobs to fill. We need to stop acting like "unskilled" labor is some sort of failure since they are often doing the most important jobs in society. We need janitors a hell of lot more than we need more people with hospital management degrees. yyyup. I get the feeling that anything involving computer janitors giving actual janitors any respect (let alone recognizing common class interests and uniting with them in a movement) is sort of a nonstarter for the forseeable future, but it's a perfectly viable economic model were the self-styled left in this country as interested in economic justice and stability as they were in fantasizing about themselves as El Presidente in IRL Tropico Giving everyone computer science degrees or making half the country 100% welfare parasites who contribute nothing to the economy and are voluntarily supported by the oligarch class who isn't going to just shrug them off because ~reasons~ are asinine brushoffs that any highschool dropout can see through, because those dropouts can readily picture themselves being on the receiving end of this 'generosity', but that's all liberals are interested in offering and I'm sure they'll still be insisting that when they are king people will take it and like it dammit when we're all reduced to fighting over Warren Buffett's dumpster leavings A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 19:58
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theflyingorc posted:I'm not sure you have a basic understanding of how much information comes across a campaign's desk. Come on dude. The Campaign didn't know how much their Latino outreach budget was, or that loving Senate candidates were begging for money from her campaign, loving Chuck Schumer didn't have to beg for money, but we with held funds from those states we needed to win. These are all bad loving signs. Bill loving Clinton was telling them not to ignore the Rust Belt and he was told he was an out touch old man looking to relive the glory days. gently caress dude, stop defending these idiots, cause they hosed us. The hosed us hard, and we're going to all suffer, and they get to go back to their trust fund lives. Stop making excuses for these brainless idiots.
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Dec 8, 2016 19:59
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The Groper posted:This especially I've never understood, decorum and reasonableness kill good policy before it gets support. The emphasis on politeness and decorum is based on the fact that for the past 40 years both parties believed in the same thing. We simply haven't had any angry left leaning populists since we've had the technology to phase coal out. Who was the last left leaning populist on the national stage before Sanders? MLK?
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Dec 8, 2016 20:05
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Something else really interesting about the whole retraining thing is when you think about the jobs the oligarchs want people to go into (engineering, computer sciences) and what happens to the labor market when labor supply increases
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Dec 8, 2016 20:07
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Also the Democrats have been losing elections, both nationally and regionally, for the last sixteen years with the outlier of Obama and his initial wave. You can't say they were doing the less flashy but pragmatic election winning strategy when they haven't been able to show real results outside of a single popular person. Their plans in places like Florida where there was an incredibly unpopular Republican governor was to run an unpopular ex-Republican. The DNC is really bad at their job and while I don't think most people thought it was going to be so bad, it's not the least bit surprising that their bad election strategies continue to fail. Leftists are frustrated with "the establishment" because they are supposed to be sacrificing ideology for the bargain of getting elected and they can't even do that. What's the point of them?Business Gorillas posted:Something else really interesting about the whole retraining thing is when you think about the jobs the oligarchs want people to go into (engineering, computer sciences) and what happens to the labor market when labor supply increases  The STEMlords smugly saying "well you should get an engineering degree  " always seemed really stupid to me.
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 20:09
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you mean we cant all be IT computer janitors???
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Dec 8, 2016 20:09
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Isn't there like a significant shortage of truckers? That's gotta be at least as terrible for your body as coal mining.
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Dec 8, 2016 20:13
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deadly_pudding posted:Isn't there like a significant shortage of truckers? That's gotta be at least as terrible for your body as coal mining. My stepfather is a trucker, no chance is it as bad as mining anything.
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Dec 8, 2016 20:15
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Radish posted:
FYGM works for how they view themselves too. Just like the people voting to slash Medicaid even if they're on it, the refrain is "those moochers will be screwed but I won't be because"
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Dec 8, 2016 20:15
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Business Gorillas posted:FYGM works for how they view themselves too. Just like the people voting to slash Medicaid even if they're on it, the refrain is "those moochers will be screwed but I won't be because" Yeah I'm sure there's a lot of arrogance that they won't be affected because THEY certainly wouldn't be replaced by a recent grad that does their job for a large pay cut (as they are so smart and talented) their general salary is going to be affected the more people are competing for the same jobs.
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Dec 8, 2016 20:18
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KomradeX posted:Bill loving Clinton was telling them not to ignore the Rust Belt and he was told he was an out touch old man looking to relive the glory days. gently caress dude, stop defending these idiots, cause they hosed us. The hosed us hard, and we're going to all suffer, and they get to go back to their trust fund lives. Stop making excuses for these brainless idiots. edit: Found a bit of stuff about that, so I guess it existed theflyingorc fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 20:19
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deadly_pudding posted:Isn't there like a significant shortage of truckers? That's gotta be at least as terrible for your body as coal mining. Sitting in a tiny cab not moving all day, pounding every orifice full of uppers so you can pull 36-hour shifts, eating three squares of garbage a day... well at least it'll be a valid alternative career path for the guys who get CS degrees and find there's no deece six figgies defragging hard drives waiting for them at the end of it
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Dec 8, 2016 20:20
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Radish posted:Yeah I'm sure there's a lot of arrogance that they won't be affected because THEY certainly wouldn't be replaced by a recent grad that does their job for a large pay cut (as they are so smart and talented) their general salary is going to be affected the more people are competing for the same jobs. The E in STEM isn't for economics
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Dec 8, 2016 20:19
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Business Gorillas posted:Something else really interesting about the whole retraining thing is when you think about the jobs the oligarchs want people to go into (engineering, computer sciences) and what happens to the labor market when labor supply increases There are plenty of call center jobs in the tech world too. The petty bourgeois software engineers will be fine.
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Dec 8, 2016 20:21
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deadly_pudding posted:Isn't there like a significant shortage of truckers? That's gotta be at least as terrible for your body as coal mining. Tesla and Google are going to have that problem fixed by the next presidential election, and not in a good way.
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Dec 8, 2016 20:21
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Tesla and Google are going to have that problem fixed by the next presidential election, and not in a good way. Nnnnnnnnnnnnope. We're not anywhere close to driverless autonomous trucking. There's still going to be a dude sitting in the cab for a good number of years, he just won't be actually driving.
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Dec 8, 2016 20:23
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Business Gorillas posted:Who was the last left leaning populist on the national stage before Sanders? MLK? Ironically probably McGovern. Also hey an article that's exactly what this thread has been talking about from before the election: https://newrepublic.com/article/130737/democrats-still-dont-get-george-mcgovern
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Dec 8, 2016 20:24
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theflyingorc posted:Nnnnnnnnnnnnope. We're not anywhere close to driverless autonomous trucking. There's still going to be a dude sitting in the cab for a good number of years, he just won't be actually driving. Won't be paid the same either.
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Dec 8, 2016 20:25
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theflyingorc posted:Nnnnnnnnnnnnope. We're not anywhere close to driverless autonomous trucking. There's still going to be a dude sitting in the cab for a good number of years, he just won't be actually driving. Yeah, you're exactly right. What makes you think that person is gonna get anything more than minimum wage?
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Dec 8, 2016 20:26
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Business Gorillas posted:The emphasis on politeness and decorum is based on the fact that for the past 40 years both parties believed in the same thing. Does Huey Long count?
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Dec 8, 2016 20:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Won't be paid the same either. That's decently likely. There's too many rough edges on truck transportation to have them be truly autonomous right now, though. It's not like a machine at a factory that removed the need for 3 jobs - at the factory, you still have a human being in the building that can observe it. That's a big problem when you're sending something 1,500 miles away from anyone who works for your company. Business Gorillas posted:Yeah, you're exactly right.
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Dec 8, 2016 20:29
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Does Huey Long count? I figured MLK was more recent. I googled huey long to double check the date to make sure and I didn't know that he got assassinated. Funny how everyone that's leaned left in this country ends up shot
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Dec 8, 2016 20:33
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Business Gorillas posted:I figured MLK was more recent. Both Kennedy s too
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Dec 8, 2016 20:36
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Sanders is still alive.
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Dec 8, 2016 20:38
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At least Debs got to die of old age
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Dec 8, 2016 20:39
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