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Jeza posted:magic barrier of near invincibility See, this is what I think is way overblown about Dva. Her barrier is really good but it also has major weaknesses. Zarya and Mei can go right through it, rein's ult can drop her during it, if she has enemies on both sides then it doesn't help her at all, and she can't make a hard retreat (ie boosting away) and use it at the same time. She has to choose between boosting (and probably taking damage during) or backing slowly away with the shield up and hoping her teammates have her back and nobody gets behind her.
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Dec 8, 2016 17:46
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Jeza posted:D.va has the best survivability for sure. Don't think that's a debate. Giant health pool, magic barrier of near invincibility, a second life, a blast off escape mechanism. D.va is probably the the key hero right now, a good one is often the difference maker in games right now. Doesn't help that the buffs turned D.Va into an even match up with Reaper to an incredibly lopsided one in her favor. Now we have a Tank Buster that can't Bust the most commonly picked Tank. At this point we are gonna need another tank buster quick (because let's face facts, Sombra didn't quite live up to that) or some changes to Reaper, if not Ana/D.Va as well. I dunno, maybe if Reaper's shotguns ignored armor at close enough ranges?
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Dec 8, 2016 17:48
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Orange Crush Rush posted:Doesn't help that the buffs turned D.Va into an even match up with Reaper to an incredibly lopsided one in her favor. Now we have a Tank Buster that can't Bust the most commonly picked Tank. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because I seriously can't remember the last time I actually lost a 1v1 vs dva as reaper. I mean, I'm not at grandmaster or anything (just getting into diamond) but if a dva is right up to me I just dodge around and unload into her face. It's much easier for me to crit her than the other way around. Plus, even if I am losing the matchup, I can wraith away. Now I am back to my healer (and probably at full health before wraith form is even over) and dva is still left with whatever sliver of health I left her. Even if she can get back to her heals it takes way longer for her to be back in the game than me. PantsBandit fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 17:51
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TheKingofSprings posted:The idea is that her ult is good against large targets with mobility issues and against buckets of HP she's got a better chance of getting it early but sure let's go with your shitpost. This might've been true when Mei could ult every teamfight but I don't think it's going to justify playing Mei now about a double-dip of ult nerf. Plus with D. Va rising in the list of preferred tanks and Roadhog and Zarya dropping the "low mobility" part is less applicable than ever. TheKingofSprings posted:You're clearly ahead of the meta so I would like to pick your brain on this one: what is a good team comp to counter the 3 tank strategy? I don't know but it probably involves Zenyatta.
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Dec 8, 2016 17:51
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tank buster comp Zen Ana Reaper Bastion Reinhardt Tracer??
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Dec 8, 2016 17:53
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PantsBandit posted:See, this is what I think is way overblown about Dva. Her barrier is really good but it also has major weaknesses. Zarya and Mei can go right through it, rein's ult can drop her during it, if she has enemies on both sides then it doesn't help her at all, and she can't make a hard retreat (ie boosting away) and use it at the same time. She has to choose between boosting (and probably taking damage during) or backing slowly away with the shield up and hoping her teammates have her back and nobody gets behind her. I'm not D.va specialist, but her barrier is no joke. Forget Mei as a vulnerability. Zarya? Right now a niche pick, and not that great against D.va anyway. Without a decent amount of charge, she dies straight up in a fight. D.va can just leave at any time too. Don't forget in these games that Ana is just sitting somewhere and spamming heal. Sure it's not that hard to kill an out of position D.va, but it's not hard to kill any hero out of position. But D.va can get out of insanely tight spots, zone out entire ults, has a strong ult of her own and is flat out super hard to kill.
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Dec 8, 2016 17:53
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I played strictly 76/Reaper for Placement in season 2 and ended up around 2200. I played strictly Mercy and Lucio for season 3 and ended up at 1500. Am I that much worse as these two or do you get less credit for playing a healer? This happened for me, I played healer for my S3 placements and wound up at 1850, had to become a Reaper main for a hot minute to drag myself back into gold.
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Dec 8, 2016 17:55
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Thing is about D.Va is the fact that Reaper can only crit her is stading in D.Va best kill range as well, which is also directly in her DM. Like as much as everyone bitches about D.Va's mech having a huge critbox, no one ever mentions she and Winston are the only ones that can't be critted from behind or the sides, but unlike Winston she has Shotguns and DM. Her move speed while firing means that the moment things go bad for Reaper she can apply super heavy pressure on him, and Wraith form is a lot slower then boosters so he can't run away either. It's a Super All-In fight for Reaper, but D.Va just has the better numbers now. On the whole, D.Va has kind of become a better Reaper anyways. She can flank just as well (which is odd, a giant flying mech being as stealthy as a Shotgun Ghost but Reaper also has the loudest voice and footsteps in FPS history), now comparable damage in close range, while having more then twice the amount of HP/Armor, and a shield/movement option that tends to cover retreats a lot more reliably then Wraith Form. Even thier ults are kinda similar, and I'll agree that Death Blossom is better then Self-Destruct, it's also a lot riskier as well, as D.Va doesn't take any damage from it and people tend to only have time to get to cover as their only reaction.
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Dec 8, 2016 17:58
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Orange Crush Rush posted:Thing is about D.Va is the fact that Reaper can only crit her is stading in D.Va best kill range as well, which is also directly in her DM. Her move speed while firing means that the moment things go bad for Reaper she can apply super heavy pressure on him, and Wraith form is a lot slower then boosters so he can't run away either. You're flat out wrong dude. Wraith form is slower than boosters, sure, but he's also INVINCIBLE and can pick up heals during it. If you're so out of position that you come out of wraith form and don't have an escape plan or heals available you're playing reaper wrong. And again, my earlier point still applies that, even if Dva can burst out reaper faster than he can her (which, again, I never see and I play a ton of reaper) she still has to escape with her remaining health so she'd better hope none of reapers teammates are in a spot to finish her off. Reaper can go in that matchup and guarantee his escape, again, assuming he has a plan b in mind in case he has to retreat. PantsBandit fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 18:02
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D. Va does like 160 DPS before headshots, Reaper does 280. Even taking the reload into account that's still 1,120 damage every 5.5 seconds for an average of about 204 DPS.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:02
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:D. Va does like 160 DPS before headshots, Reaper does 280. Even taking the reload into account that's still 1,120 damage every 5.5 seconds for an average of about 204 DPS. I don't think you realize how much armor fucks with Reaper's DPS.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:06
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I think the problem is that a lot of these strategies depend almost entirely on teamwork, something that I can't even get friends I play with to understand, so I imagine a common issue is that everyone feels like they need to 1v1 every situation.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:07
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Did they ever fix armor mitigating the individual pellets of Reaper's shotgun or whatever it was?
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Dec 8, 2016 18:08
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Orange Crush Rush posted:I don't think you realize how much armor fucks with Reaper's DPS. If we're just talking about D.Va v Reaper, Reaper has a tiny head and D.Va is all head. I'm a pretty ok D.va and I'm still very wary about Reapers that know how to count.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:09
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Orange Crush Rush posted:I don't think you realize how much armor fucks with Reaper's DPS. Even if I were taking sides in this argument and not just stating facts, I'd be responding to "D.Va has kind of become a better Reaper anyways."
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Dec 8, 2016 18:10
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TheKingofSprings posted:Did they ever fix armor mitigating the individual pellets of Reaper's shotgun or whatever it was? It's been like this since the game came out so I can only assume it's intended. It's the same with Roadhog's gun, but a grip usually puts most tanks in a prime spot to get Crit Shot so it's not as noticeable. edit: Elliotw2 posted:If we're just talking about D.Va v Reaper, Reaper has a tiny head and D.Va is all head. I'm a pretty ok D.va and I'm still very wary about Reapers that know how to count. But again, you can only crit her mech in the spot that makes Reaper the most vulnerable. D.Va is someone you can't really attack well from the back or sides as Reaper and no one ever brings this up as a major strength as D.Va Orange Crush Rush fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 18:10
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Orange Crush Rush posted:But again, you can only crit her mech in the spot that makes Reaper the most vulnerable. D.Va is someone you can't really attack well from the back or sides as Reaper and no one ever brings this up as a major strength as D.Va Looking at straight DPS on Dva from behind isn't seeing the whole picture. If you're reaper, coming at dva from behind, she's probably either 1: shooting at your teammates (which means they're shooting back and can crit her, dropping her armor) or 2: she has her DM facing oncoming fire, in which case she has to choose whether to take consistent damage from the reaper behind her (and trust me, it adds up), drop her DM to engage reaper (won't end well for her) or run away.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:17
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PantsBandit posted:I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because I seriously can't remember the last time I actually lost a 1v1 vs dva as reaper. I mean, I'm not at grandmaster or anything (just getting into diamond) but if a dva is right up to me I just dodge around and unload into her face. It's much easier for me to crit her than the other way around. e: PantsBandit posted:If you're reaper, coming at dva from behind she's probably either 1: shooting at your teammates (which means they're shooting back and can crit her, dropping her armor) or 2: she has her DM facing oncoming fire, in which case she has to choose whether to take consistent damage from the reaper behind her (and trust me, it adds up), drop her DM to engage reaper (won't end well for her) or run away I don't even strictly disagree that Reaper can take D.Va, it's not cut and dry though which is a bit of a problem. Redundant fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 18:19
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Redundant posted:If you wraith away that is you losing a fight, you don't have to die to lose a match up. Jesus christ, read the whole post. First off I very rarely have to wraith away without breaking her suit. Secondly, reaper is guaranteed 3 full seconds to get back to his team and get healed, during which he is completely safe. Dva is objectively more at risk during her escape than Reaper is, assuming the Reaper can make it to a health pack/his healer.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:24
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Orange Crush Rush posted:I don't think you realize how much armor fucks with Reaper's DPS. PantsBandit posted:Dva is objectively more at risk during her escape than Reaper is, assuming the Reaper can make it to a health pack/his healer. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 18:35
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Reaper only needs 3-5 shots to break D.Va or make her want to run, so it's not a great match up for D.Va unless they're very good at matrix and counting reloads.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:38
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PantsBandit posted:Jesus christ, read the whole post. First off I very rarely have to wraith away without breaking her suit. Secondly, reaper is guaranteed 3 full seconds to get back to his team and get healed, during which he is completely safe. Dva is objectively more at risk during her escape than Reaper is, assuming the Reaper can make it to a health pack/his healer. PantsBandit posted:Plus, even if I am losing the matchup, I can wraith away. Now I am back to my healer (and probably at full health before wraith form is even over) Chill out a bit dude, like I said before I don't disagree that Reaper can win those fights, I just thought it was funny that you contradicted yourself almost immediately. It was like a boxer bragging about not remembering ever being knocked over, then immediately talking about how even when he does end up on the mat he just stands back up again and it's all good.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:40
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This is all just talking past the fact that D.va is just so much more useful than Reaper in a lineup right now. It really doesn't matter that Reaper might win in a direct unhealed 1v1 against D.va. Reaper also dies in many other situations that D.va doesn't. It's basically a flat out fact that D.va has better survivability, and right now seems to do a lot more to help a team than a Reaper does.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:42
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Redundant posted:I read the whole post. You say you can't remember losing a 1v1 then describe a situation that is totally you losing a 1v1 but acting like it was kind of a victory. It was this part, right here: It was a hypothetical situation. I was simply explaining another way I think reaper wins the match up. I'm still saying I think he'll out damage her 9 times out of 10. I'm not lying when I say I don't remember a time when it's been just me and dva going at each other and I've had to wraith away. So I'm not sure what your point is.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:47
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Jeza posted:This is all just talking past the fact that D.va is just so much more useful than Reaper in a lineup right now. It really doesn't matter that Reaper might win in a direct unhealed 1v1 against D.va. Reaper also dies in many other situations that D.va doesn't. It's basically a flat out fact that D.va has better survivability, and right now seems to do a lot more to help a team than a Reaper does. Reaper gets kills in situations dva won't. Dva is a tank, reaper is dps, they both have a place on a comp, directly comparing them is pointless.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:47
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From what I've seen in comp (and what's effective,) Mei is great antitank on any map with chokepoints. Wall off tanks from their team, or freeze flank-tanks and your hopefully competent team will focus them. Mei also plays the same role as Hanjo as midrange projectile spam. So stop hanjoing and Mei it up.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:49
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PantsBandit posted:Reaper gets kills in situations dva won't. Dva is a tank, reaper is dps, they both have a place on a comp, directly comparing them is pointless. I mean sure, but in this case we're making comparisons because in this three tank meta, Reaper isn't being run. Despite being the stock "Anti-Tank" DPS. And D.va is the replacement. So comparisons seem pretty pertinent to me. D.va can perform Reaper's role passably, while having a bunch of other really useful attributes that he doesn't have.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:58
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Jeza posted:I mean sure, but in this case we're making comparisons because in this three tank meta, Reaper isn't being run. Despite being the stock "Anti-Tank" DPS. And D.va is the replacement. So comparisons seem pretty pertinent to me. D.va can perform Reaper's role passably, while having a bunch of other really useful attributes that he doesn't have. Dva isn't a tank buster I'm not sure what you mean.
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Dec 8, 2016 19:05
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PantsBandit posted:Reaper gets kills in situations dva won't. Dva is a tank, reaper is dps, they both have a place on a comp, directly comparing them is pointless. 
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Dec 8, 2016 20:42
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Cowcaster posted:it's all tinfoil hats and hearsay but people who've played placement matches as healers have been reporting placing low since they first implemented comp mode. general theory is that whatever metric they're using to weight per-game performance during placements (regardless of win/loss) doesn't appreciate healing done much. Just like last season and season one apparently. Played almost exclusively Lucio in season 2, I placed at 2000 and change, spent most of it in mid-gold playing with friends in matches that averaged out all over platinum and never reached platinum myself (peaked at 2400, while one of them hit diamond and the other got to over 2900). I was regularly getting less than half as many points as them for wins and losing more for losses with no difference in streaks since we were playing together. Ended at 2300 something and this season I placed at 1942 with 4/6 w/l. I guess they want to discourage people from playing healers.
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Dec 8, 2016 20:44
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IronicDongz posted:They do not have an equal place in the current comp though It's been really amusing watching players in bronze tier ape this usage for the past week.
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Dec 8, 2016 20:52
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IronicDongz posted:They do not have an equal place in the current comp though Remember when people said the S76 changes weren't that big and McCree would still be the top DPS pick for pros?
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Dec 8, 2016 20:53
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PantsBandit posted:Dva isn't a tank buster I'm not sure what you mean. She's the best close ranged DPS in the game, which is a problem when we have people like Tracer, Reaper and Genji who are DPS that can really only engage in close range. edit: Papercut posted:Remember when people said the S76 changes weren't that big and McCree would still be the top DPS pick for pros? That was before people thought the game would turn into Ana and the 3 Tanks. McCree is still better at bursting down Squishies at range, but now half the team has like 1500 HP that constantly gets healed by Ana/Lucio, and so strong sustained damage from range is the only thing that can really counter that. Orange Crush Rush fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 20:52
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I don't know how people play McCree. I can't hit people for poo poo with him. Like he's a character on the roster that's just straight up unplayable for me because I can't hit a goddamned thing with him
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Dec 8, 2016 21:06
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Macaluso posted:I don't know how people play McCree. I can't hit people for poo poo with him. Like he's a character on the roster that's just straight up unplayable for me because I can't hit a goddamned thing with him Do you have a 144Hz monitor? It makes an absolutely enormous difference, I was like you before I got one (I'm still bad with him but not like completely confused about how to land shots).
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Dec 8, 2016 21:10
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IronicDongz posted:They do not have an equal place in the current comp though The pro meta does not apply at every level and pulling out a chart like that is a really lazy way to argue a point.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:18
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PantsBandit posted:The pro meta does not apply at every level and pulling out a chart like that is a really lazy way to argue a point. The top characters being picked are also among the easiest to play/most forgiving. Why play a high risk/reward character like Tracer or Reaper, when you can pick low risk D.Va/76 and still get the same rewards?
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Dec 8, 2016 21:19
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Orange Crush Rush posted:She's the best close ranged DPS in the game, which is a problem when we have people like Tracer, Reaper and Genji who are DPS that can really only engage... Based on what metric though? She doesn't have the literal best close range dps. Whatever, this argument is stupid because what characters are and are not the most effective is going to vary wildly based on personal preference and experience. Not to mention team comp.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:21
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PantsBandit posted:The pro meta does not apply at every level and pulling out a chart like that is a really lazy way to argue a point. PantsBandit posted:Whatever, this argument is stupid because what characters are and are not the most effective is going to vary wildly based on personal preference and experience. Not to mention team comp. This is completely correct and why I got tired of talking about Overwatch characters and which are good after the first pro tourney.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:25
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PantsBandit posted:Based on what metric though? She doesn't have the literal best close range dps. Her damage has always been pretty high, especially among other tanks (remember, her and Roadhog are the only tanks that can headshot), but people could just dance out of it easily before. Now her movespeed, when combined with her HP/Armor and the fact that she uses Auto Shotguns that never need to be reloaded, means she will win straight up slug fests against the likes of Genji/Tracer/Reaper/Sombra etc. This means she is not one of the best flankers, because anyone you run into you can probably just mow down, she is one of the best anti-flankers as well because her shield is amazing at protecting Lucio/Ana against the likes of those I mentioned above. It's not just a matter of DPS in this game, especially in a game where if you aren't dead you have an Ana that puts you back to 100% HP in a second and a half.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:35
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