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Fiction posted:Can you explain what exactly gives you the impression that this is the one thing that tipped those some hundred thousand votes the other way? I'm sorry I've been ignoring what you guys were posting about because I thought you were talking to that guy, you know the one. what issue is being discussed, I want to weigh in
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Dec 8, 2016 22:10
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GlyphGryph posted:I'm sorry I've been ignoring what you guys were posting about because I thought you were talking to that guy, you know the one. what issue is being discussed, I want to weigh in He seems to think being too nice to refugees was what lost hil the election and we should just stop talking about it or making any overtures to help them.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:11
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GlyphGryph posted:I'm sorry I've been ignoring what you guys were posting about because I thought you were talking to that guy, you know the one. what issue is being discussed, I want to weigh in Whether or not we should care about what happens to refugees
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Dec 8, 2016 22:11
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Fiction posted:Can you explain what exactly gives you the impression that this is the one thing that tipped those some hundred thousand votes the other way? No, because I never said it was the one thing, I said it was a contributing factor, which it was. When you consider the vote gap in some of these states was razor thin, and that pushing hard for muslim immigrants didn't even win us Michigan, Center of Islamic Life in the United States, it's not hard to see this issue only hurt us.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:12
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glad we have people like Mirthless to prove the IDpol peeps right about people abandoning minorities and those without power at the first sign of difficulty
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Dec 8, 2016 22:12
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Mirthless posted:No, because I never said it was the one thing, I said it was a contributing factor, which it was. So because she didn't win, everything she did must have contributed equally and must be taken at the same face value? Because "maybe we should also be nativist/protectionist" isn't a great lesson to take from this...
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Dec 8, 2016 22:12
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comingafteryouall posted:glad we have people like Mirthless to prove the IDpol peeps right about people abandoning minorities and those without power at the first sign of difficulty That is not even close to what I'm saying but thank you for joining the parade of bitter hillbots who can't look clinically at a loss with any degree of inward focus "the first sign of difficulty" was the paris shootings btw and I was still on board the second sign of difficulty was san bernardino, and even then I was still trying Pulse should have been the final sign that this was not an issue we could do anything with this election. It's not about "giving up because it's hard", it's about spending resources more effectively on things you can actually accomplish. Because if you want to affect political change in America, you still need to be elected to an office first. Mirthless has issued a correction as of 22:19 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 22:13
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comingafteryouall posted:glad we have people like Mirthless to prove the IDpol peeps right about people abandoning minorities and those without power at the first sign of difficulty the only people it is okay to abandon are the global capitalist elite and by "abandon" I mean "stop sucking from their poison teat"
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Dec 8, 2016 22:13
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Hillary lost those white voters in the rust belt because IM WITH HER isn't going to save their lovely small towns and bring jobs back. MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN at least sounds like it may help their horrible lives. bing bong bing so simple.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:17
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Fiction posted:So because she didn't win, everything she did must have contributed equally and must be taken at the same face value? Because "maybe we should also be nativist/protectionist" isn't a great lesson to take from this... It wasn't a popular issue. It was never a popular issue. It cost her points in the polls and didn't even help her significantly with the group of people she was specifically trying to help. It didn't strengthen her support with minorities, it didn't strengthen her support with whites. The only people who really liked the idea were the groups that were already voting for her. I'm not suggesting we should have adopted the same rhetoric that Trump did, nor am I suggesting that we should have given him a free pass, but the way we continued to approach the syrian refugee issue even after the Pulse shooting ended up being self-defeating. In an election where many mistakes were made and the margins were very thin in multiple states, every mistake like this matters. The people of Syria are unfortunate, but they are the people of Syria. If the majority of Americans don't care about them, we can't do anything to help them. A lack of domestic focus is one of the main reasons she lost, and this is part of that lack of domestic focus.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:16
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When was she "pushing" that issue? I didn't see Clinton push much of anything, to be honest...
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Dec 8, 2016 22:18
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GlyphGryph posted:Is this real. Is this fuckin' real. HILLARY CLINTON DOT COM
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Dec 8, 2016 22:18
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Mirthless posted:I wasn't trying to make a statement, just pointing out a thing that happened lolll you're dumb as hell
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Dec 8, 2016 22:18
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Syrian refugees were barely ever discussed beyond trump saying at rallies that Obama was personally inviting millions of them in and that we had no idea who was coming in to the country because we do no vetting and that refugees were dangerous criminals who didn't share our values and lived off welfare Every one of these things were easily demonstrably completely false but the Democratic message to counter all of this was just "wow, what a dangerous racist" so yeah obviously popular perception went against them. This really ties back into how we need to 1) have an actual stance on things and 2) figure out how to actually communicate these stances, because drat I can't think of one single thing hillary said about Syrian refugees beyond "actually, immigration is good, because we have some good immigrants"
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Dec 8, 2016 22:18
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Joementum posted:Funny you should mention that, because Hillary's proposals are not the current DNC platform, which you can find here: https://www.demconvention.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Democratic-Party-Platform-7.21.16-no-lines.pdf Ah thanks. I just assumed that Hillary's general election platform mirrored the DNCs. e: actually it looks like it's extremely similar, but somehow, even less detailed. For example they don't even specify "schedule 2" for marijuana. quote:Because of conflicting federal and state laws concerning marijuana, we encourage the federal government to remove marijuana from the list of “Schedule 1" federal controlled substances and to appropriately regulate it, providing a reasoned pathway for future legalization. We believe that the states should be laboratories of democracy on the issue of marijuana, and those states that want to decriminalize it or provide access to medical marijuana should be able to do so. We support policies that will allow more research on marijuana, as well as reforming our laws to allow legal marijuana businesses to exist without uncertainty. And we recognize our current marijuana laws have had an unacceptable disparate impact in terms of arrest rates for African Americans that far outstrip arrest rates for whites, despite similar usage rates. I wonder if that was written that way because maybe they wanted to deschedule it, or something else. ate shit on live tv has issued a correction as of 22:29 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 22:19
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but also it wasn't an issue that mattered and voters clearly don't actually care that much because it does not and will not ever affect them
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Dec 8, 2016 22:20
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Refugees were not a big issue. A big issue is that half the rust belt is addicted to oxy and working two jobs to keep heat pumping into their bungalow or double wide.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:21
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immigration is good because it literally built this country illegal immigration is super good because without it we wouldn't even have America
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Dec 8, 2016 22:21
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:lolll you're dumb as hell I'll "it's impossible to be racist to a white person" as much as the next guy but you can still commit a hate crime against a person of privilege hate crimes are about prejudicial targeting, not systemic racism. gently caress off.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:22
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Serf posted:immigration is good because it literally built this country I can't really think of immigration ever making America a worse place. 99% of the time the people who immigrate here like America for its "ideals". Too bad they were punked.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:23
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"poo poo, got laid off at the plant 4 years back hadn't had a decent job since. Been work'n the warehouse over on Chester street in the days, and on a few nights I clean the floors over at the wallmart." *pops an oxy and washes it down with coke zero.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:24
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Montasque posted:Refugees were not a big issue.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:24
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Fullhouse posted:Syrian refugees were barely ever discussed beyond trump saying at rallies that Obama was personally inviting millions of them in and that we had no idea who was coming in to the country because we do no vetting and that refugees were dangerous criminals who didn't share our values and lived off welfare Yeah, I think my complaint is mostly with how we handled it more than handling it at all, in the first place. If we'd found a way to deliver our ideas that could actually get them across I wouldn't have anything to complain about, but most of the punditry and commentary from campaign surrogates and high profile dems around the time was more "we need to let MORE immigrants in!" and less "here's why these immigrants we're getting are just fine, and incredibly few and far between" It's basically a time and a place thing for me and I think we picked the wrong time and the wrong place to make what was probably the wrong argument in the first place. Maybe we would have had better results with a more nuanced approach. Serf posted:immigration is good because it literally built this country  i just wish i could convince middle america of that
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Dec 8, 2016 22:28
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Montasque posted:Refugees were not a big issue. if they want help maybe they should be better people. like me, the person with a rainbow filtered facebook photo currently campaigning against my kids having to breathe the same air as some poor kids that happen to be black
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Dec 8, 2016 22:30
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Democrats need to run on the same things that everyone who has ever won an election in America has ran on. Jobs. Healthcare. Education. Hammer those issues home every single chance you get. You can talk about other things when asked, but making a major speech about anything that isn't one of those three topics is useless and wastes time and energy.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:32
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Illegal Immigration is actually a big problem because it allows most small businesses to avoid taxes and pay less then the minimum wage, while the laborers are too afraid of being deported to complain about anything. Immigration is good as long as it is through the proper channels and those channels get streamlined.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:32
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Montasque posted:Hillary lost those white voters in the rust belt because IM WITH HER isn't going to save their lovely small towns and bring jobs back. So simple. Also how the gently caress did dems go from "hope and change" to "I'm with her" and "love trumps hate" in an election season defined by people wanting extreme changes to the status quo.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:33
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Mirthless posted:
I think the best approach is to convince middle america that we care about them and their problems. we can care about a lot of people, but we have to be sincere and earnest about it. Democrats seem untrustworthy because, well poo poo we are, and one thing we can do to fix that is to promise that will help these people and then follow through on it Huey Long won big on big promises and then delivered on them big time, and we need people who do more of that and less milquetoast neoliberal bipartisan bullshit we need to purge the class traitors who focus only on social issues while secretly holding hands with the neoconservatives behind their backs show people we give a drat
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Dec 8, 2016 22:34
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Powercrazy posted:the laborers are too afraid of being deported to complain about anything. this is the actual issue if illegal workers could make labor complaints without being fired or deported that would get rid of nearly all the problems around them, but that would be anti-business or something
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Dec 8, 2016 22:34
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Dr_0ctag0n posted:So simple. because hillary hitched her wagon to a bad president and thus couldn't even acknowledge how lovely things are for a lot of people
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Dec 8, 2016 22:36
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Fiction posted:He seems to think being too nice to refugees was what lost hil the election and we should just stop talking about it or making any overtures to help them. Serf posted:Whether or not we should care about what happens to refugees Is this legal refugees or illegal ones? Whatever, I guess I'll respond to both. On illegal immigation: I would like to see the party come out strongly against illegal immigration, both in terms of what it does to American industry to have to compete with a widely acceptable dedicated underclass of labour without rights or protections and in terms of what it does to immigrants to BE a dedicated underclass without rights and protections. I also don't think ignoring the issue is going to help them - it's too important to a lot of other issues, even if the importance is largely fabricated. I would like to see the Democrats stop justifying the abusive employment of illegal immigrants and allowing a class of legal subhumans to exist in this country is "actually good". I know there are plenty of Democrats who approach things in a better way, but every time I see someone respond to a complaint about unfair competition from illegals by saying illegal immigration is actually good because "real" Americans wouldn't be willing to work for the illegally low wages and in the horrid conditions that is required for our food and hotel rooms to be so cheap I want to strangle them. Undermining labour rights isn't good for anyone, and people are stupid but they aren't going to be stupid enough to buy that. I feel like a lot of people involved with sanctuary cities are really just looking for an easy to abuse workforce they can use as leverage against normal labour in the city, but I also feel like there are others working on real moral concerns, and it is a complex situation that will require the Dems to provide bold leadership of one sort or the other, and that their current strategy of adopting a holding pattern and maintaining the status quo is absolutely the worst possible way they could go about it. On legal refugees: I would also like to see them take the bold stance of offering immediate access and expedited citizenship to refugees, insuring they cannot be abused and calming concerns about people having their jobs stolen by illegally cheap labour. I don't think this should be campaigned on, because most people just don't want to be scared, there's not exactly any major voter group that is going to suddenly be activated by this issue, and all campaigning on it is going to do is scare them. Win big on issues that matter more to those people than fear, make sure your candidates support aggressive refugee acceptance, and then do it quickly and efficiently once you get into office. I don't think Hillary talked much about it, which I don't have a problem with, but I also don't think she was actually going to do jack poo poo about it either. I don't think refugees were a major issue for pretty much anyone, I think kit would largely be a mistake to campaign on it as a major issue, and if you care about it you're much better off convincing people you'll also do good things for them than trying to convince them they should be happy you're doing good things for others. There are probably some local places where you could campaign on it as a positive, and in those places you should, but most of the country will not care. GlyphGryph has issued a correction as of 22:41 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 22:36
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Powercrazy posted:Illegal Immigration is actually a big problem because it allows most small businesses to avoid taxes and pay less then the minimum wage, while the laborers are too afraid of being deported to complain about anything. Immigration is good as long as it is through the proper channels and those channels get streamlined. that's true. being super aggressive about getting immigrants naturalized would most likely help, but unfortunately it's an area where the republican starve the beast is very effective. people get mad about obama's immigration/deportation numbers a lot, which is completely fair, but a big part of that was the immigration bureaus being Xtremely understaffed and underfunded
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Dec 8, 2016 22:36
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Dr_0ctag0n posted:So simple. We were arrogant, smug, and filled with hubris.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:38
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Serf posted:I think the best approach is to convince middle america that we care about them and their problems. we can care about a lot of people, but we have to be sincere and earnest about it. Democrats seem untrustworthy because, well poo poo we are, and one thing we can do to fix that is to promise that will help these people and then follow through on it loving this. History has showed time and time again that people will go along with whatever is going on as long as the people in charge are actually looking out for them. Hell, it sometimes even helps if you have to get your hands dirty and make some serious enemies to make peoples lives better.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:38
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Who the gently caress is middle america? People that don't rent?
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Dec 8, 2016 22:39
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Refugees can actually be super helpful to small rural areas, by putting some population in a place where people have just slowly drained away. You gotta be careful with it, but places with low population growth dig refugees. In Buffalo, we fuckin' love 'em and we're activley courting to get them because a combination of just... awful choices and globalization meant a lot of the population got taken out of the city. You can do the same as part of a rural re-investment project. I mean there's a whole goddamn country trying to escape itself right now, why not use them to rejuvenate areas that have had everyone leave? Put some goddamn factories out there makin' cool poo poo like wind turbines and solar panels and put some people in the town making kebabs and shawarma part of the american cuisine scene.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:39
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comingafteryouall posted:I can't really think of immigration ever making America a worse place. 99% of the time the people who immigrate here like America for its "ideals". Too bad they were punked. Immigration is definitely a long term good for the country, but in the short term (where we live) it has definitely hurt people and 100% been used to drive wages down/keep wages low and break unions both now and in the past. However those issues are amenable to other policy solutions and the general discussion surrounding immigration isn't generally focused on the proper areas- i.e. the ongoing abuse of H1B visa system is a real issue, while Syrian refugees are not.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:40
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Serf posted:we need to purge the class traitors who focus only on social issues while secretly holding hands with the neoconservatives behind their backs Welcome to the Republican party.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:41
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Fullhouse posted:this is the actual issue Well also the idea of controlling a nations borders should exist. You can't have legal immigration mean anything, if you can get all the same benefits by just showing up. Controlling immigration will only get more important as more social policies are passed.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:42
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immigration plan: welcome to America! Here's a driver's license and a handgun, oh and you will be paid full wages because you're a goddamn human being realtalk: re-open Ellis Island or some poo poo and start accepting people in if you want to do it the legal way
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Dec 8, 2016 22:44
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