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Orange Crush Rush posted:she will win straight up slug fests against the likes of Reaper 
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Dec 8, 2016 21:40
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IronicDongz posted:They do not have an equal place in the current comp though i'm going to have to start banning people everytime someone posts a chart from this source because they're always from like a single day tournaments and have no real statistical merit whatsoever this breakdown by the same guy for the same thing is about a million times more useful but it's still from a 2 day tournament between 12 teams 
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Dec 8, 2016 21:42
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that's right the winning team had approximately no d.va and about 60% more tracer than everyone else
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Dec 8, 2016 21:44
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I really don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp for you. The numbers are just so overall in D.Va's favor. Like, congrats on killing some bad D.Vas as Reaper a bunch of times I guess? Cowcaster posted:that's right the winning team had approximately no d.va and about 60% more tracer than everyone else Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Misfits have literally the best Tracer player in the world? Like, actually the #1 rated Tracer.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:47
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Saying that dva out damages reaper is like someone saying junkrat counters pharah. It makes zero sense to me how someone could genuinely believe that to be true.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:47
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The real best tier list is your own career profile hero usage screen
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Dec 8, 2016 21:47
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PantsBandit posted:Saying that dva out damages reaper is like someone saying junkrat counters pharah. It makes zero sense to me how someone could genuinely believe that to be true. i mean there were people making this claim before d.va even got buffed for the first time, much less after she's been buffed repeatedly. it's bizarre.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:48
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In all seriousness, I hope that some day we get something like the old TF2 stats page for Overwatch. It'd be interesting to see, I think, especially stuff like the death heatmaps and win rates.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:52
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PantsBandit posted:The pro meta does not apply at every level and pulling out a chart like that is a really lazy way to argue a point. It's a good start but you really want like 4-5 of them, especially when like that one it's just results from a single tournament. Better yet would be cross-referencing usage with who actually wins with X characters on Y map and getting matchup charts and poo poo, but that would take some serious digging.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:53
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Because you don't win this game just based on pure best DPS. If that was the case Bastion would be everywhere. How much HP you have, defensive options, mobility, all that poo poo matters in who beats who.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:53
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A good D.Va in her current incarnation will consistently come out on top against Reaper. He has higher damage on paper but that doesn't matter when the shots aren't landing. All it takes is proper defense matrix management and counting to 8. Outside of a 1v1 vacuum with D.Va, Soldier 76, and Roadhog being so prevalent Reaper can't reliably get in to do significant damage before getting shut down. Soldier and Roadhog are much more reliable shield/tank busters right now.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:00
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Zamujasa posted:In all seriousness, I hope that some day we get something like the old TF2 stats page for Overwatch. It'd be interesting to see, I think, especially stuff like the death heatmaps and win rates. So many engineers, not doing anything at all.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:04
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PantsBandit posted:It was a hypothetical situation. I was simply explaining another way I think reaper wins the match up. I'm still saying I think he'll out damage her 9 times out of 10. I'm not lying when I say I don't remember a time when it's been just me and dva going at each other and I've had to wraith away. So I'm not sure what your point is. Pedantic points aside, I agree with you about Reaper winning 1v1s, they don't happen in a vacuum though so it's a moot point. Hopefully Doomfist will be a tankbuster to help Reaper burn through this garbage meta since it can be an uphill battle alone. Obviously he will actually be the tankiest tank and we will see the rise of the new 5-1 power meta.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:06
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Orange Crush Rush posted:Her damage has always been pretty high, especially among other tanks (remember, her and Roadhog are the only tanks that can headshot),
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Dec 8, 2016 22:15
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The changes to 76 are the difference between him being playable for me and not. Although possibly the bad luck of getting "We're All Soldiers Now" over and over again has helped as practice, as much as I really dislike that mode.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:18
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TheRationalRedditor posted:uhhh no it isn't especially when you're comparing her to an actual DPS, that's the tradeoff made for having infinite ammo i mean she might technically out dps reinhardt and an uncharged zarya i guess? i have no explanation for trying to claim she's the second best tank at damage though.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:19
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Rick posted:The changes to 76 are the difference between him being playable for me and not. Although possibly the bad luck of getting "We're All Soldiers Now" over and over again has helped as practice, as much as I really dislike that mode. That brawl doesn't seem like it'd be much use for practice because of the diminished health and increased cooldowns. You don't live long enough to practice aiming since a lot of it is twitch firing and you die so fast that there's no time or reason to make tactical decisions. At least, that's how it is whenever I get it.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:22
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Redundant posted:"Wraithing away is definitely not Reaper winning a match up" was literally my only point because twice now your wording makes it sound like you think it is. Wraithing away as reaper is like hitting body shots with widow. This isn't the tryhard thread though so whatever. Reaper is brought to 10 hp and has to run, having brought dva to 50. He wraiths back to his team, is healed in 2-3 seconds by any healer in the game, and is back in the fight (or just picks up souls on the battlefield and doesn't even have to return to a healer/medpack). That same dva, with 50 health, has to get back to her own healers without taking 50 hp of damage and, even if she makes it back, has to wait significantly longer than reaper to be back to optimal health. That's assuming there is a mercy on the other team. Lucio or ana take even longer to get dva back to fighting form. Please explain to me how the reaper doesn't come out on top in this particular situation, ESPECIALLY if one of your teammates can do enough damage to dva while she's retreating to break her suit. MY point was I think that, even in situation where reaper does end up running (which is rare), he's still in a better situation immediately afterwards than the damaged dva.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:29
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i think that with the d.va health buffs the reaper matchup is a lot more down to each player's individual skill than it would ever be otherwise. now if we were talking d.va minus +100 HP even with the (now not so) new and improved defense matrix the reaper would be guaranteed cracking her open like a delicious peanut every single time.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:33
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I also want to mention again that I think having a competent zen on your team greatly improves reaper's viability. A discorded tank is the tastiest thing ever for reaper because suddenly that massive hp pool is completely decimated in 2-3 good shots. Which brings us way back to the original question of how to bust up teams heavy on tanks. My personal preference every time is to break out the zen + reaper combo. Zen + roadhog can work as well but I don't think it has the same shock and awe that reaper can dish out. PantsBandit fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 22:39
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Talking in 1v1 terms makes very little sense when one of the characters involved is a tank. D.Va ruins Reaper's day by being on the ball with her matrix when he tries to ambush her teammates, not by flying around after him on a solo vendetta.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:43
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Supercar Gautier posted:Talking in 1v1 terms makes very little sense when one of the characters involved is a tank. D.Va ruins Reaper's day by being on the ball with her matrix when he tries to ambush her teammates, not by flying around after him on a solo vendetta. the point of the 1v1 chat is that people were discussing how to crack open a troublesome d.va and reaper is an ok enough choice to do so, not so much how to neuter a troublesome reaper
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Dec 8, 2016 22:45
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PantsBandit posted:Reaper is brought to 10 hp and has to run, having brought dva to 50. He wraiths back to his team, is healed in 2-3 seconds by any healer in the game, and is back in the fight (or just picks up souls on the battlefield and doesn't even have to return to a healer/medpack). That same dva, with 50 health, has to get back to her own healers without taking 50 hp of damage and, even if she makes it back, has to wait significantly longer than reaper to be back to optimal health. That's assuming there is a mercy on the other team. Lucio or ana take even longer to get dva back to fighting form. A good D.Va doesn't need to make some great journey to get back to the healers because she maintained line of sight with her Ana and didn't go on some weird solo push to deal with a Reaper that wasn't harassing her backline. Also Ana has higher healing throughput than Mercy so I don't know why you think she'd be slower to get D.Va topped off.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:53
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Neuter a Reapertm
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Dec 8, 2016 22:53
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zenthursdays posted:A good D.Va doesn't need to make some great journey to get back to the healers because she maintained line of sight with her Ana and didn't go on some weird solo push to deal with a Reaper that wasn't harassing her backline. So basically what you're saying is...a dva shouldn't try to 1v1 a reaper? Because yes, I agree.
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Dec 8, 2016 23:08
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PantsBandit posted:So basically what you're saying is...a dva shouldn't try to 1v1 a reaper? Because yes, I agree. Your arbitrary scenario had both players running back to healers and D.Va avoiding damage on her way back so it wasn't a 1v1 in the first place. If it was, Reaper wouldn't have a healer to run to or any souls to collect. He'd be reliant on a health pack that D.Va could certainly beat him to.
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Dec 8, 2016 23:24
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PantsBandit posted:Reaper is brought to 10 hp and has to run, having brought dva to 50. He wraiths back to his team, is healed in 2-3 seconds by any healer in the game, and is back in the fight (or just picks up souls on the battlefield and doesn't even have to return to a healer/medpack). That same dva, with 50 health, has to get back to her own healers without taking 50 hp of damage and, even if she makes it back, has to wait significantly longer than reaper to be back to optimal health. That's assuming there is a mercy on the other team. Lucio or ana take even longer to get dva back to fighting form. Redundant posted:I agree with you about Reaper winning 1v1s, they don't happen in a vacuum though so it's a moot point A far more likely hypothetical is Reaper and D.Va exchange damage in a mess of a team fight, Reaper wraiths away and does nothing useful for a few seconds, in that same time D.Va can defence matrix herself and her team safely whilst getting healed, since Ana has crazy HPS output she can be safely firing again before Reaper so dealing free damage, Reaper now also has a pretty notable cool down that he has to wait for that leaves him kind of vulnerable, whilst D.Va can carry on like nothing ever happened. On top of that D.Va provides her supports with an ult that is far more useful than the deathblossom you got in exchange, doubly so since D.Va can totally wreck your ult. You're working super hard to find a weird angle though, so have at it. E: the "optimal health" thing is a particular highlight since D.Va will be more survivable that Reaper much earlier due to Armour and starting with more health, the fact she can heal past that doesn't mean she has to stand still doing nothing whilst she get's healed to full. e2:Also, I missed the talk of Mercy outhealing Ana on the easiest to hit target in the game. Hve I been gotcha'd? Redundant fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 23:28
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Cool my "working really hard to find a weird angle" is just discussing situations I see a lot playing the game. If we were "in a mess of a teamfight" I would be destroying the dva easily so I guess you're right, wraith form wouldn't apply there. Redundant posted:e2:Also, I missed the talk of Mercy outhealing Ana on the easiest to hit target in the game. Hve I been gotcha'd? Omg someone isn't obsessive enough to have every stat in the game memorized? I thought mercy had higher heal output, so loving sue me. PantsBandit fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 23:41
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PantsBandit posted:Cool my "working really hard to find a weird angle" is just discussing situations I see a lot playing the game. If we were "in a mess of a teamfight" I would be destroying the dva easily so I guess you're right, wraith form wouldn't apply there.  OK. I would enjoy seeing the videos of these isolated 1v1s that you apparently get into all the time where the D.Va stays and fights rather than boosting back to their team and forcing you to run the 76 gauntlet. As for the Ana thing, it was a part of the original discussion about why the triple tank meta works and in a post on this page it shows Ana as the 3rd most used hero in a recent comp where Mercy wasn't used once by any team so  Basic reading comprehension more than stat memorising?The funniest part is that I agree with you about the 1v1, I just never see it happen. If you see it all the time then good for you, keep on keeping on. That still doesn't make Reaper the 1 (or 2 man with Zen) answer to triple tank. He can do work but it's not exactly a cake walk. Redundant fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Dec 9, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 23:58
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Redundant posted:
Ana having a higher pick rate should automatically tell me she has higher heals per second than mercy? wtf? You're being an insulting prick over this for no reason.
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Dec 9, 2016 00:02
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PantsBandit posted:Ana having a higher pick rate should automatically tell me she has higher heals per second than mercy? wtf? I mean playing them both is a good way to pick up on it considering Ana's HPS is like 150% of Mercy's without even considering biotic grenade.
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Dec 9, 2016 00:34
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I like the way this thread thinks and the characters they suggest buffing.
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Dec 9, 2016 00:41
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PantsBandit posted:Ana having a higher pick rate should automatically tell me she has higher heals per second than mercy? wtf? I mean, if you're gonna create hypothetical scenarios then don't be surprised when someone points out how they're wrong and why. Ana and the three tanks exists because her HPS is berserk. You didn't bother examining this. Instead you're off imagining a creating deathmatches with Reaper in Flankerland. D. Va's fat rear end and Defense Matrix buy her plenty of time to not die to a 1v1, thus her superiority to Reaper.
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Dec 9, 2016 01:04
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Ana's ridiculous healing is half the reason the tank meta exists The other half is Roadhog As for Reaper, the newly buffed D.Va and Soldier do a passable immitation of his tankbusting while also providing way more utility and also making GBS threads on him, personally, in various ways. He still theoretically deals a hell of a lot of damage but it's hard for him to leverage that when he's getting melted at range while MEKA literally deletes all of his bullets. Dunno about 1 v 1, but yes, if you wraith out, you lost the fight unless you desuited her first. Ana's healing puts her from 50 up to 600 in 1 grenade + 3 shots; just 2 shots more than it would take her to heal Reaper to full from anywhere. That's like, a second more, that'll get eaten up by her faster speed and the time he spends literally useless in Wraith Form.
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Dec 9, 2016 01:08
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I play a lot of D.Va and Reaper is not exactly my favorite person to see. I do end up 1v1 with Reaper from time-to-time because D.Va is mobile and one of her roles is confronting flankers, however because D.Va has two safety abilities (Matrix and Booster) and Reaper has Wraith Form, most of the fights end with someone running away. So far in Season 3, I have not seen many teams running a Reaper, even with the tank heavy meta. Part of that is probably Soldier76 being a slam pick, leaving only one slot for Reaper out of 12 other Offense/Defense characters.
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Dec 9, 2016 01:14
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Ana could get a nerf by making her darts take longer to fully heal with no stacking. If it was long enough, it would allow her to switch between targets at the cost of not being able to heal a Roadhog face-tanking the entire enemy team.
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Dec 9, 2016 01:27
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Am I gonna get a lot of flak if i just sit down and master hanzo? Really like his toolkit and Ive played a fuckton of tribes and tf2 as a sniper with a bow.
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Dec 9, 2016 01:43
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w00tmonger posted:Am I gonna get a lot of flak if i just sit down and master hanzo? Really like his toolkit and Ive played a fuckton of tribes and tf2 as a sniper with a bow. Probably. But don't let that stop you.
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Dec 9, 2016 01:48
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w00tmonger posted:Am I gonna get a lot of flak if i just sit down and master hanzo? Really like his toolkit and Ive played a fuckton of tribes and tf2 as a sniper with a bow.
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Dec 9, 2016 01:58
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Most Hanzos get enough picks these days that it's hard to complain about them. Just stay near enough to the point that you can play it if the opportunity arises (like if the team wanders away from the point, or maybe they just leave a one on one you can win or to contest when the rest of your team is close to returning or it's OT) and people won't have much to say.
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Dec 9, 2016 02:14
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