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Phimosissy posted:Half-elves only get low-light vision, sorry Someone hasn't played 5e, I see.
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Dec 9, 2016 21:43
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Cojawfee posted:Where do you draw the line? How far along to we bring their society? Agrarian? Industrial? Warp capable? Once we've decided how far they can go with our help, how do we deal with them constantly asking us for better technology? What do you do when you beam down and start "improving" their world and then they end up resenting you for destroying their world with your evil technology? Especially when we have Insurrection where they think they are studying some primitive race and it turns out they can make any technology they want, they just choose not to.
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Dec 9, 2016 22:12
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There's no way to draw a hard line with the prime directive. Being warp capable doesn't mean a species is ready for the galaxy at large. Humanity was not ready for everything when Cochran made his flight. In some ways they were behind even where we are today. Then you have a civilization like what we have now where we are potentially ready to contact an alien race and are actively searching for other life. We just don't have the technological know how to do interstellar travel. Whereas a completely militarized race that focuses purely on scientific advancement in pursuit of being more powerful at the expense the welfare of its people is not something you would want to interact with.
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Dec 9, 2016 22:23
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The Prime Directive is like the Three Laws of Robotics, its function as a fictional absolute rule shouldn't be mistaken for a creative absolute. It exists precisely to be debated, bent, resisted and otherwise manipulated for the sake of drama and allegory, as it was in TOS. The problems came in the TNG era when the writers often forgot that and treated it like holy scripture in need of apologetic treatises instead of a literary device to explore the human condition.Cojawfee posted:There's no way to draw a hard line with the prime directive. Being warp capable doesn't mean a species is ready for the galaxy at large. Humanity was not ready for everything when Cochran made his flight. In some ways they were behind even where we are today. Then you have a civilization like what we have now where we are potentially ready to contact an alien race and are actively searching for other life. We just don't have the technological know how to do interstellar travel. Whereas a completely militarized race that focuses purely on scientific advancement in pursuit of being more powerful at the expense the welfare of its people is not something you would want to interact with. This is all exactly on point and a series about Starfleet Special Circumstances dealing with these kinds of unique/edge cases would be great.
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Dec 9, 2016 23:13
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Cojawfee posted:There's no way to draw a hard line with the prime directive. Being warp capable doesn't mean a species is ready for the galaxy at large. Humanity was not ready for everything when Cochran made his flight. In some ways they were behind even where we are today. Then you have a civilization like what we have now where we are potentially ready to contact an alien race and are actively searching for other life. We just don't have the technological know how to do interstellar travel. Whereas a completely militarized race that focuses purely on scientific advancement in pursuit of being more powerful at the expense the welfare of its people is not something you would want to interact with. What I wonder is what happens when there's a warp civilization that contacts the Federation and then declines entrance or the like. I mean there clearly are some, but it seems like you'd be sentencing yourself to relative irrelevancy, even if the Federation is willing to cut you a break on some local star systems and so on.
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Dec 9, 2016 23:24
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It's like if you open a restaurant and decline to put root beer on the menu!
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Dec 9, 2016 23:36
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"It's called black licorice" "A warrior's candy!"
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Dec 9, 2016 23:38
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Nessus posted:What I wonder is what happens when there's a warp civilization that contacts the Federation and then declines entrance or the like. I mean there clearly are some, but it seems like you'd be sentencing yourself to relative irrelevancy, even if the Federation is willing to cut you a break on some local star systems and so on. Weren't most of the aliens of the week from TNG non-member species? And of course there's Bajor, with everyone expecting Deep Space Nine to be a random secondhand outpost in the middle of nowhere and Bajor never wanted to join. Would have stayed that way if not for the wormhole. Phimosissy posted:Half-elves only get low-light vision, sorry Is that the disadvantage the Vulcan Science Academy meant?
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Dec 10, 2016 00:58
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I wonder if there's an industry in exporting holo-sims of the Battle of Thermopylae and the like to Klingons who are bored by their own culture
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Dec 10, 2016 01:09
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FuturePastNow posted:I wonder if there's an industry in exporting holo-sims of the Battle of Thermopylae and the like to Klingons who are bored by their own culture Industry in a post-money society? What are you a Ferengi? I'm sure there are enough non-Starfleet history buff people who sit around all day reading and debating ancient Earth history and making holo simulations of every possible event in Earth's history. And because programming in Star Trek seems as easy as giving the computer a few verbal commands, the Federation probably has more holo programs that they will ever need.
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Dec 10, 2016 01:59
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FuturePastNow posted:I wonder if there's an industry in exporting holo-sims of the Battle of Thermopylae and the like to Klingons who are bored by their own culture Personally I'd like to play that simulation from the Persian side. Give the Spartans a right asskicking.
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Dec 10, 2016 02:16
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Brick Card posted:Industry in a post-money society? What are you a Ferengi? I'm sure there are enough non-Starfleet history buff people who sit around all day reading and debating ancient Earth history and making holo simulations of every possible event in Earth's history. And because programming in Star Trek seems as easy as giving the computer a few verbal commands, the Federation probably has more holo programs that they will ever need. There was that one fellow, Quark's cousin's associate, who seemed to be human but completely and utterly Ferengi in outlook and desire.
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Dec 10, 2016 02:37
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Rhyno posted:I think I screwed up somewhere Man those cities from The 37's really were something.
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Dec 10, 2016 02:38
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VanSandman posted:There was that one fellow, Quark's cousin's associate, who seemed to be human but completely and utterly Ferengi in outlook and desire. And programming holosuite programs, especially of the more... intimate kind, is an excellent route to profit.
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Dec 10, 2016 02:42
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There are definitely going to be fringe humans who love capitalism.
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Dec 10, 2016 02:48
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I've been rewatching DS9 and when they're on earth visiting Sisko's Resturant, and I realized that on Earth you must be able to open any business you want as long as you're willing to run it. That's gotta be nice. Earth probably has a pretty low population density though so people have way more freedom to do what they want. I think that's why DS9 is probably one of the best Trek series made, as it really gives you the idea of what life is like in the Federation.
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Dec 10, 2016 04:04
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"We've moved past capitalism" *Walks down to a bar that costs money, run by an alien from a race obsessed with money, despite that money doesn't exist or something*
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Dec 10, 2016 04:24
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Deep Space 9 is ran by the Federation but it's not in the Federation and there's very little expected Federation traffic.
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Dec 10, 2016 04:26
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WickedHate posted:Deep Space 9 is ran by the Federation but it's not in the Federation and there's very little expected Federation traffic. *Is a member of the federation* *Gambles at the bar with... Something, I guess*
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Dec 10, 2016 04:30
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See, that's the question you should have been asking to begin with.
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Dec 10, 2016 04:30
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*Tries to pay a smuggler (what could need smuggling in our collective free of want and hunger?) to go to the Genesis planet* Pretend I mentioned the other 500 times money comes up in the Federation here The Federation is very post-capitalism until the need arises to write a plot.
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Dec 10, 2016 04:35
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dont even fink about it posted:*Is a member of the federation* Like it seems clear the Federation knows what money *is* and engages in trade with groups that still use currency-based economics as a macro-entity.
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Dec 10, 2016 04:47
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It's not like they forgot how money works or don't need to use it with other civilizations. Humans don't kill each other anymore but the ship still has phasers.
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Dec 10, 2016 04:49
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Star Trek was never really made for exploring the logistics of a utopian society. It's like calling the language in Darmok unrealistic. That's not the point!
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Dec 10, 2016 05:01
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CharlieWhiskey posted:The bug-folk had to be awkward enough for the dumbass tv audiences of 1988 to not get confused. I'm pretty sure that the most clever thing done on tv at that point was color. I get your joke, but I think the more striking example would be stereo sound. Isn't it weird to think that there were television stations where shows like Star Trek TNG and Babylon 5 were only available in mono?
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Dec 10, 2016 06:44
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Cojawfee posted:There's no way to draw a hard line with the prime directive. Being warp capable doesn't mean a species is ready for the galaxy at large. Humanity was not ready for everything when Cochran made his flight. In some ways they were behind even where we are today. Then you have a civilization like what we have now where we are potentially ready to contact an alien race and are actively searching for other life. We just don't have the technological know how to do interstellar travel. Whereas a completely militarized race that focuses purely on scientific advancement in pursuit of being more powerful at the expense the welfare of its people is not something you would want to interact with. Remember that being warp-capable doesn't mean the Prime Directive no longer applies at all, it just means that contact and interaction is now permitted, presumably because at that point contact is inevitable. The PD still requires the Federation to not interfere in the societal development or internal affairs of another civilization. If anything, I think an aggressively hostile society achieving warp drive would be a priority candidate for contact, if only to warn them off of trying piracy against nearby freighters or something.
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Dec 10, 2016 06:54
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Nessus posted:They were ready and willing to accept VULCAN AID to UNDERMINE OUR VALUES and EXPORT ALL OUR PRECIOUS COD, is what. In TNG there were at least two episodes where planets were being evaluated for admission to the Federation, and were rejected.
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Dec 10, 2016 06:56
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I'm not usually this emotional so maybe it's just because I'm sick with a bad bug today, but I watched Duet on a whim and broke down bawling.  What good loving acting.
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Dec 10, 2016 07:25
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:In TNG there were at least two episodes where planets were being evaluated for admission to the Federation, and were rejected. They also probably have weird stuff we barely or hardly ever see, like hydrogen-breathing gas bag civilizations. The closest we got was the Tholians and I guess the Breen.
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Dec 10, 2016 07:49
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There are various novels and such that show Horta integrating successfully with Federation society but well nobody cares about the novels
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Dec 10, 2016 07:56
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sunday at work posted:It's not like they forgot how money works or don't need to use it with other civilizations. *Is a utopian post-scarcity society* *Engages in trade, which would not be necessary in said society*
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Dec 10, 2016 08:05
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Nessus posted:They also probably have weird stuff we barely or hardly ever see, like hydrogen-breathing gas bag civilizations. The closest we got was the Tholians and I guess the Breen. Medusans, the goons of the federation.
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Dec 10, 2016 08:24
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dont even fink about it posted:*Is a utopian post-scarcity society* Society can be post-scarcity on an individual consumer level and not a state level, though. Like there's actually nothing weird at all about the Federation being absurdly rich enough to provide a lavish life of luxury for all of its citizens while still needing to engage in international trade for other things.
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Dec 10, 2016 08:37
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"Hey, it looks like we have some money." "M-money? Money doesn't even make sense in our post-scarcity society." "We can use it to trade for goods with these other people that still use money." "Why do they still use money? Once they see that we are post-scarcity, they will either want or be forced to adopt our system, because of its obvious social, economic, and tactical advantages. Capitalist systems are now embarrassing dinosaurs." "Due to long-entrenched belief systems, they are unable to conceptualize why this is an advantage, and continue to place societal value on money. For instance, the Ferengi intensely value money and profit." "That actually doesn't matter. Money is literally no object. We can transform ambient atoms into food and create virtual reality systems so powerful that they can turn real, obviating money. Once the Ferengi realize this, it will inevitably revolutionize their society the way it has ours, whether they resist it or not, because post-scarcity economics crosses a threshold and will necessarily affect everything that interacts with it. Imagine the Industrial Revolution, times a million." "Well, we've received a stipend from the Federation to spend in interactions with these people. What will we do with it?" "Gamble it, in order to make more money! How exciting to us!" "Or, we could pay Quark to make us replicated food, a thing that exists everywhere, even here on Bumfuck Nowhere Station." "Oops, I poo poo my pants again!" "Did I mention we also have a holodeck here? Life in and around DS9 is so much more difficult than in the rest of the Federation, for some reason." "We haven't told the Bajorans about any of this, as a joke."
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Dec 10, 2016 08:55
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Actually, I'm pretty sure replicators use some kind of goo, and I think latinum can't be produced artificially for some sciency reason.
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Dec 10, 2016 09:07
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WickedHate posted:Actually, I'm pretty sure replicators use some kind of goo, and I think latinum can't be produced artificially for some sciency reason. Before I go off again, let me just say that it's pretty obvious that the Federation still uses money and recognizable economics. If they did what they claim (frequently espoused in monologues by Picard in particular), which is to say, evolved past the need for money or personal differences, they would be unrecognizable to us.
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Dec 10, 2016 09:17
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They are not unrecognisable largely because the writers aren't that good.
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Dec 10, 2016 09:42
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dont even fink about it posted:Before I go off again, let me just say that it's pretty obvious that the Federation still uses money and recognizable economics. If they did what they claim (frequently espoused in monologues by Picard in particular), which is to say, evolved past the need for money or personal differences, they would be unrecognizable to us. If you mean "past the need for money," they seem to be post-scarcity on an individual level. The closest thing to a genuinely oppressed class are people settling shithole colonies, and these were either done deliberately or, in the case of the Maquis, done deliberately and then protested by military action after border adjustments. I don't think a desire for money is somehow an axiomatic psychological principle in human beings. It obviously isn't for Ferengi, whose entire religion is built around it. Personal differences I'll give you, but I always thought the idea was meant to be more 'general higher level of psychological health' than 'transhuman calmdrones,' Gene's early remarks notwithstanding.
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Dec 10, 2016 10:39
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Pakled posted:There are various novels and such that show Horta integrating successfully with Federation society but well nobody cares about the novels They appear in the Diane Duane novels, which are good Star Trek.
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Dec 10, 2016 10:40
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I'm not sure why Star Trek is on BBC America constantly now, but I was watching The Ultimate Computer and I didn't remember that in this instance of Kirk talking a computer to death he convinces the M5 to turn itself off because "the punishment for murder is death". drat, not even modern America sentences all murders to death. Also murder is wrong because "it's against man and God". Some pretty non-Star Trek ideas in this episode.
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Dec 10, 2016 12:09
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