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Outrail posted:I'm confused as to how an EMT can't be trained to identify a dead person. I mean yeah, doctors have almost a decade of experience, but come on. Nothing to do with training and everything to do with liability.
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Dec 11, 2016 03:12
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Outrail posted:I'm confused as to how an EMT can't be trained to identify a dead person. I mean yeah, doctors have almost a decade of experience, but come on. I mean, death is pretty obvious to identify. Things like dependant lividity, decapitation, rigor mortis, etc. are all perfect signs that someone has passed, but because we work under an MD's license, we're not allowed to pronounce death. Yeah, we know that the patient is dead, that's why we don't start CPR and life-saving measures on a person that we know is dead. We just can't say they're dead.
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Dec 11, 2016 03:14
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doctor gotta get paid
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Dec 11, 2016 03:23
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ninjahedgehog posted:Wait for it. Is that bike super heavy or is she just exceptionally weak?
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Dec 11, 2016 03:41
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mortician: this coffin is perfect for your husband, whose body suggests an incompatibility with life
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Dec 11, 2016 03:42
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Powaqoatse posted:Is that bike super heavy or is she just exceptionally weak? Trash probably heavier than the bike if that means anything
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Dec 11, 2016 04:08
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Powaqoatse posted:Is that bike super heavy or is she just exceptionally weak? She reminds me of Mr. Burns
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Dec 11, 2016 04:10
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Zipperelli. posted:So as paramedics, we're not allowed to call a patient "dead" or establish a time of death. We have to write our reports with terms like, "signs incompatible with life" or something similar because we're not doctors. As of 2013 we can pronounce death as paramedics in Maryland. 
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Dec 11, 2016 05:02
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FirstPlayer posted:As of 2013 we can pronounce death as paramedics in Maryland. I could pronounce “death” when I was like two years old.
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Dec 11, 2016 05:16
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Dec 11, 2016 05:17
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Sloober posted:Because people are stupid and think "Trains are loud, i will not get hit because i'll hear it ahead of time". I went to a school, as a teenager, that had an open campus in a small town with heavily used track (Orr, MN). We often went off campus for lunch at the cafe and such, and we had to cross the tracks. Fear the tracks. The ballast is slippery and you can't hear the train. Trust me, you can't hear the train. You think you can hear the train, but you can't hear the train. Use your eyes and your brain. We had DM&IR people come to the school all the time to teach us to "Stop, Look, and Listen" at every crossing. Never race the train. You will lose and you'll be the "dedicated to" picture in the yearbook. For us, not having a dead kid was a good year. You cannot hear the train. You simply cannot hear the train. It's flying at 50-75 mph. If you can hear it, you're already dead. Doppler effect. Just take it easy and use your eyes, not your ears. By the time you hear the high-pitched tone, you're dead.
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Dec 11, 2016 05:31
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Powaqoatse posted:Is that bike super heavy or is she just exceptionally weak? cheap bikes are surprisingly heavy (i'd guess that one weighs 30-40 pounds) but yeah she's really gotta HTFU if she wants to make a statement
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Dec 11, 2016 05:47
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^^^ Yeah it's the nice expensive bikes that are lighter.mostlygray posted:By the time you hear the high-pitched tone, you're dead. 3 - If They Have Cubs, We're Already Dead (7.23.12) Skip up to about 1:45 for discussion of the Liam Neeson The Grey
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Dec 11, 2016 05:49
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Powaqoatse posted:Is that bike super heavy or is she just exceptionally weak? Bicycles are awkward to lift if you don’t do it often.
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Dec 11, 2016 05:50
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Outrail posted:I'm confused as to how an EMT can't be trained to identify a dead person. I mean yeah, doctors have almost a decade of experience, but come on. Liability. The dumb kind.
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Dec 11, 2016 05:50
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Probably people would freak out if they saw EMTs just milling around and going "Yep, he dead" when their loved one is just passed out on the ground and doesn't look dead to them. And then the surviving relatives who were there complain (and sue) because the EMTs "didn't do enough" to help their relative who clearly wasn't dead yet, he was just near death and they let him die, the monsters. So the EMTs have to keep going through the motions until a doctor gets there or they bring the body somewhere to call time of death, is that the idea behind not letting EMTs pronounce death?
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Dec 11, 2016 06:03
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https://twitter.com/OddsShark/status/807748724080476160/video/1 I'd like to think that it wasn't the kick but his debilitating foot stank that knocked out his opponent.
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Dec 11, 2016 06:08
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BJPaskoff posted:Probably people would freak out if they saw EMTs just milling around and going "Yep, he dead" when their loved one is just passed out on the ground and doesn't look dead to them. And then the surviving relatives who were there complain (and sue) because the EMTs "didn't do enough" to help their relative who clearly wasn't dead yet, he was just near death and they let him die, the monsters. So the EMTs have to keep going through the motions until a doctor gets there or they bring the body somewhere to call time of death, is that the idea behind not letting EMTs pronounce death? You left out violently assaulting the paramedics.
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Dec 11, 2016 06:09
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BJPaskoff posted:Probably people would freak out if they saw EMTs just milling around and going "Yep, he dead" when their loved one is just passed out on the ground and doesn't look dead to them. And then the surviving relatives who were there complain (and sue) because the EMTs "didn't do enough" to help their relative who clearly wasn't dead yet, he was just near death and they let him die, the monsters. So the EMTs have to keep going through the motions until a doctor gets there or they bring the body somewhere to call time of death, is that the idea behind not letting EMTs pronounce death? I'm not sure of the specifics of why we can't call it, but no doctor ever comes out to the scene. We call in, say that we have a patient with signs incompatible with life (depending on the doc, they may want a description of what, exactly, we're looking at), and the doc will give a time of death over the radio for our documentation purposes. After that, we're done. All that's left is for the coroner/medical examiner to come out and take the body to wherever it's going. Edit: And we get assaulted as well, somewhere in that timeline.
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Dec 11, 2016 06:12
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I was under the impression that determining scientific death is actually a really touchy and philosophical subject. Like, someone can be cold on the ground for an hour but there could still be brain stem or cardiovascular activity because the body doesn't have a giant "off" switch, no matter how bad it gets hosed up, and the systems tend to shut down in a slow systematic manner. Like I'm not denying that it's pretty loving obvious when someone won't be coming back, but just that "calling it" because you can't pick up a pulse can in some rare instances medically and legally be a very bad move.
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Dec 11, 2016 07:06
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Local Hero Dishes Sweet Vigilante Justice to YouTube Doofus Who Blocked Traffic With Gold BMW
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Dec 11, 2016 08:46
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GrandpaPants posted:Local Hero Dishes Sweet Vigilante Justice to YouTube Doofus Who Blocked Traffic With Gold BMW The douchebag paid a friend to smash just the windshield and no body panels, and it cost him much less than replacing the windshield, and I'm sure he got 0.5-3 million views and more than made his money back. Please never click on these people's videos.
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Dec 11, 2016 08:55
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CaptBushido posted:I was under the impression that determining scientific death is actually a really touchy and philosophical subject. Like, someone can be cold on the ground for an hour but there could still be brain stem or cardiovascular activity because the body doesn't have a giant "off" switch, no matter how bad it gets hosed up, and the systems tend to shut down in a slow systematic manner. Also there's more than enough cases of people waking up on the morticians slab (or during the funeral, and sometimes possibly *after* it) for the legal responsibility for pronouncing death to be something that you want kicked as far up the chain as possible.
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Dec 11, 2016 10:04
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"Look im not saying hes dead. What I am saying is that I had to pick his brain up with a spatula."
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Dec 11, 2016 11:17
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The definition of death has also changed a lot over the years, and will probably continue to do so as medical technology advances Used to be that if you weren't breathing, you were dead. Easy to determine. But then we discovered that you can keep a non-breathing person alive indefinitely with artificial respiration, and we found that people can be in states where they breathe so slowly and faintly that the average person can't detect it, but they're still alive and can regain their health. So the definition changed to be that you're dead when you don't have a pulse. But whoops, some years later we discovered methods of cardiopulmonary resuscitation and invented defibrillators to jump-start a heart that's losing control and heart-lung machines that can keep your brain alive even if your heart and lungs have stopped working, so now "heart is stopped" is not enough to verify death either. Today we define death by brain activity but it's still a sketchy line -- there are cases of people returning from vegetative states, in which their brains were effectively shut down, that they'd been stuck in for years. And maybe tomorrow we'll invent a new technique that lets us resuscitate a brain that is considered dead today, and the definition of death will have to change again. Sagebrush has a new favorite as of 12:02 on Dec 11, 2016 |
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Dec 11, 2016 11:58
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Sagebrush posted:The definition of death has also changed a lot over the years, and will probably continue to do so as medical technology advances And, really, what is 'brain activity' but electrical signals? I can boot up a PC after being with out power no problem, what stops us going all Frankenstein and resuscitating people by introducing a tiny electrical pulse to the correct part of the brain to boot them up again? As for heartbeats, I heard it's nothing like the movies, you can't just put 2 fingers on their neck and go "welp, no pulse" to the point they've got actual Doctors to check 10 corpses on tables but some of the Doctors failed to find a pulse in the 2 or 3 alive volunteers pretending to be dead.
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Dec 11, 2016 12:53
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There's circuits not firing and there's the brain tissue dying which also causes permanent (and crushing) swelling. That probably isn't getting cured ever.
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Dec 11, 2016 13:03
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Ak Gara posted:And, really, what is 'brain activity' but electrical signals? I can boot up a PC after being with out power no problem, what stops us going all Frankenstein and resuscitating people by introducing a tiny electrical pulse to the correct part of the brain to boot them up again? Volatile memory. You don’t need a tiny pulse. You need the complete firmware, and brains don’t have JTAG ports. Also, you have to halt decomposition before the circuits are destroyed entirely (read: the blue smoke escapes).
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Dec 11, 2016 13:03
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Zipperelli. posted:I'm not sure of the specifics of why we can't call it, but no doctor ever comes out to the scene. We call in, say that we have a patient with signs incompatible with life (depending on the doc, they may want a description of what, exactly, we're looking at), and the doc will give a time of death over the radio for our documentation purposes. After that, we're done. All that's left is for the coroner/medical examiner to come out and take the body to wherever it's going. This absolutely must be a US thing; when my wife died the EMTs worked for maybe 60-120 seconds before one of them stood up, apologized, and said she was gone. Well I think he said something about her not responding to resuscitation etc. But yea it was pretty clear.
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Dec 11, 2016 13:53
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That cat ain't got no rhythm.
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Dec 11, 2016 14:05
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Serephina posted:This absolutely must be a US thing; when my wife died the EMTs worked for maybe 60-120 seconds before one of them stood up, apologized, and said she was gone. Well I think he said something about her not responding to resuscitation etc. But yea it was pretty clear. 60-120 seconds? Oh hell we'd be so fired over here for that. Where I'm at, if we were to find someone in cardiac arrest, specifically asystole (or, flat-lined basically), we have to work them for 15 minutes. If after 15 minutes the patient hasn't responded to any of the treatments we've done, we can radio medical control, explain the situation, and then we can cease efforts. Even in this instance, we need to make sure the doc is ok with it. There are more than a few docs who get on my nerves with this, because if they're working and this happens, you're bringing that patient in, no matter how dead they are. Also, condolences about your wife 
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Dec 11, 2016 14:06
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Solice Kirsk posted:That cat ain't got no rhythm. 
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Dec 11, 2016 14:21
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Zipperelli. posted:60-120 seconds? Oh hell we'd be so fired over here for that. Where I'm at, if we were to find someone in cardiac arrest, specifically asystole (or, flat-lined basically), we have to work them for 15 minutes. If after 15 minutes the patient hasn't responded to any of the treatments we've done, we can radio medical control, explain the situation, and then we can cease efforts. Even in this instance, we need to make sure the doc is ok with it. It's a lot easier when they're trying to resuscitate a Real Doll. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 11, 2016 14:23
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CaptBushido posted:I was under the impression that determining scientific death is actually a really touchy and philosophical subject. Like, someone can be cold on the ground for an hour but there could still be brain stem or cardiovascular activity because the body doesn't have a giant "off" switch, no matter how bad it gets hosed up, and the systems tend to shut down in a slow systematic manner.
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Dec 11, 2016 14:51
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Ak Gara posted:And, really, what is 'brain activity' but electrical signals? I can boot up a PC after being with out power no problem, what stops us going all Frankenstein and resuscitating people by introducing a tiny electrical pulse to the correct part of the brain to boot them up again? There's a reason that the part of your that's you floats inside a fish tank built of bone. Brains are comically fragile. The way neurons work, they need a constant supply of oxygen to keep the machinery of the cell from breaking down. Deprive them of oxygen, and they begin dying in about a minute. In the span of about five, the brain is irretrievably dead.
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Dec 11, 2016 14:55
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Skippy McPants posted:There's a reason that the part of your that's you floats inside a fish tank built of bone. Brains are comically fragile. The way neurons work, they need a constant supply of oxygen to keep the machinery of the cell from breaking down. Deprive them of oxygen, and they begin dying in about a minute. In the span of about five, the brain is irretrievably dead. Right, but that's not the same as the body being deprived of external oxygen for five minutes. That's five minutes after the blood is depleted of oxygen, correct?
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Dec 11, 2016 14:58
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The brain needs more oxygen more quickly than that, else everyone would be able to hold their breath for 5 minutes. Not to mention carbon dioxide buildup, ect
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Dec 11, 2016 15:00
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Subjunctive posted:Right, but that's not the same as the body being deprived of external oxygen for five minutes. That's five minutes after the blood is depleted of oxygen, correct? Yeah, that's 5 minutes of the cells themselves not receiving oxygen. Usually due to a lack of blood, or the blood becoming sufficiently deoxygenated. When you hold your breath there's still plenty of oxygen kicking around in your system. How long between when you stop breathing and when your brain stops getting enough to keep going depends on a lot of different stuff. Hold your breath while running, and you'll pass out a lot faster than if you were sitting still. Fun tidbit, this is why competition divers stop swimming once they reach negative buoyancy, it conserves a ton of oxygen just to stop moving and let gravity pull them down. Edit: It's also why people with severe arterial bleeds can die so much quicker than someone who has had, say, a heart attack. Their blood pressure drops to the point that there's nothing going to their brain, so you hit the terminal point almost immediately. Whereas someone who's heart has stopped can limp along for a little bit thanks to stuff like CPR. Skippy McPants has a new favorite as of 15:43 on Dec 11, 2016 |
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Dec 11, 2016 15:05
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Malachite_Dragon posted:The brain needs more oxygen more quickly than that, else everyone would be able to hold their breath for 5 minutes. Not to mention carbon dioxide buildup, ect People stop holding their breath because of the CO2 levels, not because of lack of oxygen. It's a reaction in the lungs that happens well before blood oxygen is depleted.
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Dec 11, 2016 15:51
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Subjunctive posted:People stop holding their breath because of the CO2 levels, not because of lack of oxygen. It's a reaction in the lungs that happens well before blood oxygen is depleted. The pain is CO2 buildup, but if you make it all the way to fainting, that part is your brain freaking out and shutting down everything non-essential to try and maintain homeostasis.
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Dec 11, 2016 16:02
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