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McCloud posted:Why are you calling him tink? Both him and Kawa Zolfagary used to post on these here forums, mainly in LF. Don't remember Kawa's nick but Malcom's was Tinkzorg originally (like in his blog URL). Later name changed to anime Lenin or something along those lines.
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Dec 8, 2016 15:56
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TheFluff posted:Don't remember Kawa's nick Kauka Beeswax fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 16:04
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Right. They didn't really agree on a lot of points, of course. You can probably find some funny arguments in the archives if you can be bothered to dig up the old scandipol threads in LF. I've tried to find funny posts I have some vague recollection of a few times, but just finding the threads is a pain in in the rear end and then they're hundreds of pages of shitposting so 
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Dec 8, 2016 16:25
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I mean they were both LF leftists and Irony Boys and this was before the rise of identity politics, so iirc they got along just fine. I once went with Tink to watch Kawa perform standup in Uppsala (he died pretty badly but so did most of the acts). These days they're clearly on opposite sides of a bunch of issues but they're still on the left.
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Dec 8, 2016 16:56
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Biomute posted:It is rather impressive how quickly the far-right have managed to disseminate their new talking points, when under a year ago it was still "but what about the law-abiding, upstanding citizens (rich conservative white people)" and now even the lowliest troll will be going on about the poor working class. Say what you will about the far-left, but at least they are consistent. eh lots of contemporary right-wing populism bases itself on a sort of bastardised class counsciousness and has done so for a while, c.f. the constant whining about how the "elites" and journalists or what have you are conspiring against them
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Dec 8, 2016 17:45
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Yeah. the elite discourse that you hear from spokepersons riding the alt-right wave is not actually honest. It's just a rhetorical tool and it quickly reveals itself as such when examined skeptically. http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/kulturdebatt/i-hogerns-tyckarbubbla-gar-sverige-alltid-under/ quote:Det behöver naturligtvis inte vara antiliberalt att uppmärksamma eller problematisera kriminalitet eller invandring. Att kollektivisera är det däremot, att suggerera fram ett hot från den stora massan där alla som ingår i den antas hysa samma föresatser, uppsåt och värderingar. Or for the far more sarcastic take on the same topic that was also published today: http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/kronikor/fredrik-strage-kara-sd-valjare-vad-sags-om-att-flytta-till-jimmieland-i-thailand/ quote:Nu har jag buntats ihop med pk-eliten. Det blir i bästa fall omskolningsläger för min del om SD tar makten. Därför har jag ett anspråkslöst förslag. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 18:00
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Criticism of tink's opinion piece and response.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:03
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Tink's argument is built on the fiction that the rise of the alt-right is something isolated to Sweden when it's really a pan-western phenomenon. While Swedish papers might have been anxious about labeling people frivolously media in many other countries, such as in the UK, Denmark and the US, have never had such reservations and that hasn't exactly impeded political discourse from moving in the same direction. In fact, it's very similar to how countries which receive 10% of the refugees per capita will have the exact same rhetorical arguments going as we hear here in Sweden, despite that the circumstances could not be more different. He's not wrong when he's pointing out the problems in the usage of vocabulary, from a discursive viewpoint his argument is fine and probably empirically sound, but it's not a meaningful observation about the phenomenon as a whole as much as it is an empty got'cha. Yes, Sweden leans heavily towards post-structuralist ways of labeling things (or 'normkritik' as it's referred to outside of Academia) but that's hardly why what we're seeing is happening. There's nothing indicating causation as it is something unique about Sweden while elite resentment itself is decisively not. What I especially found questionable about his argument is this: quote:3) skapa ressentiment och upplevelser i stil med ”dom ljuger!” hos allt fler människor i takt med att deras egen bild av verkligheten och den bild som målades upp av godhetssignalerande opinionsledare gled allt mer isär In a world where Fox News could be labeled as 'too PC' this argument rings hollow. I hate that he's actually making me defend Politism but they are right. Less spouting of empty platitudes and actual practical suggestions would go a long way. There's very little separating Tink's opinion piece from the other 'self-criticizing' pieces of the same kind that have been published this year and they all share this problem. Just asserting that the current climate could be problematic is not good enough. Also, the unironic usage of virtue signaling when critiquing media is making my brain hurt. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 19:33
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Fair points, I think. I should maybe clarify that I usually don't agree with everything I link, but I think the debate is interesting.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:48
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V. Illych L. posted:eh lots of contemporary right-wing populism bases itself on a sort of bastardised class counsciousness and has done so for a while, c.f. the constant whining about how the "elites" and journalists or what have you are conspiring against them Meanwhile center-left people seem too busy defending globalization and free trade to bother with stuff like class issues anymore. Margaret Thatchers greatest success wasn't limited to only Tony Blair I think. Just been reading a few threads in this forum and it really makes you wonder if there's any hope left.
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Dec 9, 2016 07:47
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His Divine Shadow posted:Meanwhile center-left people seem too busy defending globalization and free trade to bother with stuff like class issues anymore. Margaret Thatchers greatest success wasn't limited to only Tony Blair I think. Just been reading a few threads in this forum and it really makes you wonder if there's any hope left. What do you mean by globalization in this context? A lot of the time, when these accusations are leveled upon "the left" (which seemingly includes everyone one disagrees with, regardless of their actual place on the political spectrum) by the far-right and the ill-informed they're referring to everything from free movement of people to any sense of human compassion and unity, not international-scale business. Certainly center-left politicians have a vested interest in propping up free-trade as long as its relatively stable and profitable and in doing so they've arguably helped tear down a lot of the victories their own parties fought for over the years. I'm not convinced that they've done so with the consent of the average centre-left voter. Theoretically, we're supposed to have choice and then whoever we choose will generally do what we want them to do, but that's not how it generally works out. For us Scandinavians, it seems like after the far-right was defeated there was a period of incredible steps forward thanks to a centre-left with actual leftist politics, but then collusion between centrist forces in both the centre-left and conservative parties squeezed the left out and neo-liberalism have ruled ever since. A lot of the groundwork for scapegoating the left had been prepared by the centrists and the resurgent far-right have seized on that. They blame "the left" for threatening the quality of life that they've grown accustomed to, when the reality is that 1. Without the left they would never have had it in the first place. 2. The left lost control a long time ago and aint threatening poo poo. I think centre-left people still care about class issues, but people are not very politically active. The most we can muster is a torchlight procession now and again. If the centre-left parties have been co-opted by people with their own agendas, and the parties left of that have been marginalized to the point of being ineffectual people are just going to keep voting as they've always done in hope of better times or lose hope and either stop voting or buy into the right-wing bs in hope of shaking things up.
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Dec 9, 2016 11:47
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I think it's vital to understand that it's been a gradual process. For instance, what started here in Sweden with Olof Palme de-regulating the finance sector due to international pressure in the 80's ended up with Göran Persson in the late 90's demolishing every tenant that he could get his hands on of social democracy through huge welfare cuts, privatizations, tax reforms and marketization of public goods. Reinfeldt won in 2006 but it was mostly a light-right continuation of the very same policy ideas Persson hade been pushing for over a decade. It's telling that in 2002-2010 SD absorbed unionists and working poor from S while in 2006-2014 militarists and conservatives similarly fled M in droves. The current Löfven government seems to understand that these policies have to some degree been hurtful but they're also either unwilling or incapable of questioning the fundamental economic assumptions they were built upon which is why nothing is changing. Third-way adoption of neoliberalism by the centre-left is not unique to the UK, people just didn't start catching on until recently. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Dec 9, 2016 |
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Dec 9, 2016 12:10
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Biomute posted:What do you mean by globalization in this context? A lot of the time, when these accusations are leveled upon "the left" (which seemingly includes everyone one disagrees with, regardless of their actual place on the political spectrum) by the far-right and the ill-informed they're referring to everything from free movement of people to any sense of human compassion and unity, not international-scale business. Certainly center-left politicians have a vested interest in propping up free-trade as long as its relatively stable and profitable and in doing so they've arguably helped tear down a lot of the victories their own parties fought for over the years. Globalization as in free movement of goods and capital. I agree the parties did not do so with the consent of the working class voters, but I think those voters are now either staying home (politically inactive) or have gone SD. S went for the middle class. Happened everywhere in the west. Now when I look at this forum full of politically active, and I presume self-identified center-left voters, most of them seem pro-global integration. Probably because 1) they benefit personally from it, 2) they live in larger cities which have also benefited and grown (at the expense of other areas), 3) national anything is yucky evil stuff therefore globalization good, even though it leads to a plutocracy and destruction of welfare states and resulting inequality.
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Dec 9, 2016 14:23
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All of the political parties available are loving awful in their own unique way. I'm going to drop a protest vote for V because they're the most radical alternative available and they sure aint getting nowhere close to governing.
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Dec 10, 2016 16:02
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so that means I can be a cheapskate and post about posting instead of having some wit or spending any more on comedy avs for people. Which I'm also incapable of. Comedy.
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feels bad man
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Dec 10, 2016 18:16
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His Divine Shadow posted:Globalization as in free movement of goods and capital. I don't feel like most people here would be considered "politically active" by the standards of the 60s, 70s and even 80s. I'm sure there's plenty of exceptions to that and I guess I'm mostly projecting, but it feels like most people here are very well informed, but not necessarily "active" outside of voting. Maybe I'm wrong and what I'm really feeling is that we're ineffectual. I think there's certainly pro's to global integration. Nationalism is a dangerous beast, even if Norway has benefited from it in the past, and international cooperation is clearly a boon in many areas such as research and education. As a consumer I want access to goods that would not be available if Norway was an isolationist state, and I think free movement of people has the potential of reducing inequality. As a democratic socialist I realize that there's also the danger of exploitation when these options become available and I've voted for a government that theoretically should have overseen and regulated all of this quite carefully. Now, a communist might say that the nature of the beast (capitalism) is that this is impossible, but previous successes gave us every reason to believe it could be done, but I feel like we've been let down/betrayed along the way. As for being city-centric, well, maybe. I don't feel particularly bad for hypothetical farmers who want to grow lovely Norwegian tomatoes and charge a fortune, when clearly there are places in the world where better tomatoes might be grown more effectively. Norwegian farmers should grow things that either grow well in Norway, or have a particular advantage when it comes to flavor etc. I also find it strange how much of the criticism from areas outside of the cities is racial in nature. If immigrants really were such a horrible thing than surely the cities should be grumbling the loudest as we've got the most of them. It sounds like the hicks might benefit from some exposure to different cultures and peoples. thotsky fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Dec 10, 2016 |
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Dec 10, 2016 19:33
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Biomute posted:Norwegian farmers should grow things that either grow well in Norway Like nettles? It's not like we're a country well suited for farming.
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Dec 11, 2016 11:49
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Alhazred posted:Like nettles? It's not like we're a country well suited for farming. The south east and much of Trøndelag is perfectly good for farming. With climate change and poo poo, there are even farmers who are trying their hand at wine.
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Dec 11, 2016 12:49
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Greenhouse farming works well in these latitudes during april-october when heating requirements are minimal and makes some really great produce thanks to the long sun hours.
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Dec 11, 2016 13:06
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Lets not pretend that the biggest problems concerning Scandinavian's agriculture's ability to compete is the environment. There are plenty of crops and animals that thrive in our climate and the reason they're in decline are spelled labour laws, animal rights and enviromental policy. The competitive edge that most of Europe has on us is that they simply don't care. It's not that they're magically more efficient.
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Dec 11, 2016 13:11
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Oh yeah they had a swedish professor about that and antibiotics in the radio recently that said a lot of the same things. He said things probably won't change until a celebrity dies from a multiresistant strain of something.
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Dec 11, 2016 13:15
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His Divine Shadow posted:Oh yeah they had a swedish professor about that and antibiotics in the radio recently that said a lot of the same things. He said things probably won't change until a celebrity dies from a multiresistant strain of something.
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Dec 11, 2016 13:35
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MiddleOne posted:Lets not pretend that the biggest problems concerning Scandinavian's agriculture's ability to compete is the environment. There are plenty of crops and animals that thrive in our climate and the reason they're in decline are spelled labour laws, animal rights and enviromental policy. The competitive edge that most of Europe has on us is that they simply don't care. It's not that they're magically more efficient. It's kinda funny (in a dark, depressing way) that you complain about us caring to much about animal rights when our politicians recently allowed the fur farming industry to continue to torture animals in order to produce a completely unnecessary product.
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Dec 11, 2016 15:03
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MiddleOne posted:Lets not pretend that the biggest problems concerning Scandinavian's agriculture's ability to compete is the environment. There are plenty of crops and animals that thrive in our climate and the reason they're in decline are spelled labour laws, animal rights and enviromental policy. The competitive edge that most of Europe has on us is that they simply don't care. It's not that they're magically more efficient. Nah, quality is an issue. Made in Norway is such a bullshit argument. Norwegian produce is poo poo. Go into any Italian supermarket and be blown away in comparison. We can grow some decent cabbage, potatoes and carrots maybe, but really we should be trading for better quality produce. I'd not be surprised if trying to grow watermelon or whatever in Norway is more harmful to the environment. For sure southern europe is more efficient, nothing magic about it. Their labor laws might be worse than ours (although I'd not be surprised if we're all using EU laws by now), but clearly their environment is just more suited to it (and their farmer are probably better at it too). It's one of those cases where international trade is clearly a good thing, and if we wanted to we could try to ensure that whatever produce we buy is produced in a manner that suits our ethics. thotsky fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Dec 11, 2016 |
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Dec 11, 2016 15:15
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Biomute posted:Nah, quality is an issue. Made in Norway is such a bullshit argument. Norwegian produce is poo poo. Go into any Italian supermarket and be blown away in comparison. Norwegian apples and strawberries can be pretty drat good. Though there is a great deal of regional variation, and you won't get the local goods in all supermarkets. People who do farm labor at the bigger farms are mostly foreign workers anyway, Poles, Lithuanians, Romanians, Bulgarians. There has been some controversy regarding their working conditions, which varies alot, and their pay which is very low compared to what you would pay a Norwegian or Swede but pretty good for Poles and such who are looking to work for a season and send the money home. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Dec 11, 2016 |
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Dec 11, 2016 15:23
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Randarkman posted:Norwegian apples and strawberries can be pretty drat good. Though there is a great deal of regional variation, and you won't get the local goods in all supermarkets. Norwegian apples have "character" which is another lovely excuse. Granny Smith or whatever is clearly better for eating and cooking, while English cider apples blow ours out of the water for that purpose. Norwegian stawberries never impress me and are probably propped up in some way. Our cloudberries are good and unique, focus on that.
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Dec 11, 2016 15:35
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Biomute posted:Norwegian apples have "character" which is another lovely excuse. Granny Smith or whatever is clearly better for eating and cooking, while English cider apples blow ours out of the water for that purpose. Norwegian stawberries never impress me and are probably propped up in some way. Our cloudberries are good and unique, focus on that. "Character"? They're just apples. There's a bunch of different types that I can't name, but really don't care there are good ones and not so good ones, in the end it comes down to taste. Where in the country might you be from? Are you talking about stuff you just buy from the supermarket, because Norway is pretty bad at having actual local produce in supermarkets. It will have gone on a round-about kind of trip to actually get to you while there's like a farm growing apples or strawberries right down the road. I'm mostly familair with the South East and Lier in particular and during the strawberry harvesting season the berries you can buy from people selling them by the side of road are amazing, super sweet. I also know a few people from the farms and such and as far I know there's no "propping up", don't know what you are talking about.
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Dec 11, 2016 15:41
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I've been in italian supermarkets when I was in italy, I wasn't blown away the least by the quality of the produce.
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Dec 11, 2016 15:46
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Stuff generally tastes the same everywhere but local is often better tasting since it tends to be fresher.
Andrast fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Dec 11, 2016 |
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Dec 11, 2016 15:48
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Alhazred posted:It's kinda funny (in a dark, depressing way) that you complain about us caring to much about animal rights when our politicians recently allowed the fur farming industry to continue to torture animals in order to produce a completely unnecessary product. I'm not complaining though? It's a fact that we are doing more than the rest of Europe. The problem is not that we are overambitious, it's that other countries have no ambition at all and I'm saying that is bad.  Biomute posted:For sure southern europe is more efficient, nothing magic about it. Their labor laws might be worse than ours (although I'd not be surprised if we're all using EU laws by now), There's no might about it, this is literally how it works. And no, EU laws have not created an equilibrium on this, it's straight up a race to the bottom. Germany and Poland are not export giants in meat and produce because of their efficiency, they are because they depress wages aggressively and treat their animals extremely poorly which drives prices down. Scandinavian countries have both more capital and technological know-how, but as we actually price in negative externalities and ethical concerns ours will always be more expensive in a free market. You can drive the geographic argument about specific crops like water melons (or Paprika, Olives and Grapes which would be my first argument) however much you want but matter is that both Norway and Sweden have territory that is being underutilized due to unfair competition that is enabled by the free-trade zone. This is by design, agricultural interests in the EU are driven by France, Spain, Germany, Poland and Italy and they'll never concede to anything that would hurt their dominance. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Dec 11, 2016 |
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Dec 11, 2016 15:50
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MiddleOne posted:I'm not complaining though? It's a fact that we are doing more than the rest of Europe. The problem is not that we are overambitious, it's that other countries have no ambition at all and I'm saying that is bad.
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Dec 11, 2016 15:54
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Alhazred posted:The fact that we let farmers torture animals in order to make a luxury product isn't exactly overly ambitious when it comes to animal rights. My god I'm not disagreeing with you. Fur farming is bad, I know.
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Dec 11, 2016 15:56
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His Divine Shadow posted:I've been in italian supermarkets when I was in italy, I wasn't blown away the least by the quality of the produce. where in italy did ya go? You need to catch the locally made stuff
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Dec 11, 2016 17:49
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Alhazred posted:The fact that we let farmers torture animals in order to make a luxury product isn't exactly overly ambitious when it comes to animal rights. The animals would torture you, given the chance. Don't be fooled.
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Dec 11, 2016 18:38
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eightpole posted:The animals would torture you, given the chance. Don't be fooled. No that's just cats.
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Dec 11, 2016 18:39
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eightpole posted:The animals would torture you, given the chance. Don't be fooled. It's why I'm for dolphin slaughter.
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Dec 11, 2016 18:41
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MiddleOne posted:No that's just cats. and chimps, and orcas.
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Dec 11, 2016 19:14
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Wild Horses posted:where in italy did ya go? You need to catch the locally made stuff We where in Rome, we did a lot of grocery shopping and cooking our own food to save money. I can't remember the produce being better, nor worse, it was the same as everywhere else I've been.
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Dec 11, 2016 20:02
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The fur industry employs people and generates tax income in a era when the Norwegian economy is struggling. We have to keep it even if it is barbaric.
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Dec 12, 2016 00:18
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MiddleOne posted:There's no might about it, this is literally how it works. And no, EU laws have not created an equilibrium on this, it's straight up a race to the bottom. Germany and Poland are not export giants in meat and produce because of their efficiency, they are because they depress wages aggressively and treat their animals extremely poorly which drives prices down. Scandinavian countries have both more capital and technological know-how, but as we actually price in negative externalities and ethical concerns ours will always be more expensive in a free market. I'm not pro-EU by any means, clearly it's a rigged system. Ostensibly we're supposed to have full access to the one-market and have additional opportunities to trade outside of it thanks to our sorta-in status, but you only have to go to Sweden to see that for some reason or another we're left with a much slimmer selection and somewhat worse quality on our imports if you ask me. I'll take your word for labor laws being slack over there, but clearly they have the advantage of soil and sun. Norway might be underutilized, but it's not just down to their farmers getting more leeway. Their produce grows faster, bigger and better. I can conceed that it's possible our produce might come out on top in a few rare occasions if we're comparing specific local goods that are somewhat suited to our environment to the shoddiest of spanish imports, but the fact remains that most of what I've seen (Oslo/Akershus) is pretty sad and stunted stuff. I'd be all for Norwegian farmers blowing me away with their technological know-how. I'm not worried by GMO's or whatever if they can produce a superior product, but I don't want to pay a premum without anything in return, and while our milk farmers talk a good game about how they treat their cows and stuff I'm not that convinced considering other things our farmers will do, nor do I care enough to make it my primary concern. I guess I can look foward to sipping some white wines from the south of Sweden in my old age if we're not all dead by then, but as someone who's into food and stuff international imports are a must. thotsky fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 04:26
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