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Nebakenezzer posted:Thanks. I've never heard of this but I went to the worst high school in Canada apparently, so it does not surprise me. Because in AP the tests cost only 50 bucks, where as in college you have to get crippling student loan debt.
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Dec 11, 2016 03:44
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Nebakenezzer posted:Thanks. I've never heard of this but I went to the worst high school in Canada apparently, so it does not surprise me. It lets you skip some classes if you do well on the ap test; for instance, I didn't need to take calc 1 or calc 2.
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Dec 11, 2016 03:44
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Nebakenezzer posted:Thanks. I've never heard of this but I went to the worst high school in Canada apparently, so it does not surprise me. Well, AP courses aren't taught to university standards... They aren't even taught to secondary/ high school standards
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Dec 11, 2016 03:52
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Nenonen posted:True story: when Urho Kekkonen was running for Finnish president in 1949 his campaign emphasized that he was still an ordinary hick born in a chimneyless smoke hut, so they spread a photograph of his birth house with the chimney manipulated away from the picture (in reality there was a chimney when he was born). Makes you think of Monty Python's Four Yorkshiremen. This has been making me laugh all day. "People of Finland. I have a terrible confession. I am not the man of the people I pretended to be. I grew up not as a humble peasant farmer, but in a family of snooty chimneyhavers. Our smoke went up to the sky through a hole in our ceiling. Straight into the the sky. I am so very sorry." thatbastardken posted:I want to take this moment to share a story about my grandad that's highly relevant to the thread title. Calvados? Either way, your grandpa was part of a fine tradition in the British military, and you should be very proud.
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Dec 11, 2016 04:09
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AP's represent the worst aspects of education. Teaching to the test instead of trying to teach the subject itself.
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Dec 11, 2016 04:44
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any particularly good ww1 films you guys would recommend? im watching paths of glory right now and enjoying it
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Dec 11, 2016 07:24
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Hunt11 posted:AP's represent the worst aspects of education. Teaching to the test instead of trying to teach the subject itself. This is probably more appropriate to somewhere else, but w/e I actually just finished the student teaching phase of becoming certified to teach HS social studies--Friday was my last day. I'll be licensed and looking for work in January. The pro teacher I worked with does AP US History and AP Government, so I p. much just taught AP the whole time. The best kids in the school, really. He has a union contract and all (at least until Betsy Devos drops a meteor on the planet), but as far as administration is concerned his students' scores on the AP exam pretty much determine whether he has succeeded or failed at his job that year. He's not going to get fired if they do poorly, but the conditions of his job might change. Our kids were pretty much the best students in the school, smartest, most motivated. If he does a bad job, maybe he has to teach freshman history. Or ELL classes. He's qualified to teach AP courses, but if the kids don't perform he might be pushed somewhere he's not qualified, just to run him out of the profession. Who gives a poo poo about the kids? Punish the teacher and do nothing to resolve the underlying condition. This is America, you communist fucker. So he has a really strong personal incentive to teach to the test. This was frustrating to me on several occasions--there's a period of several weeks where supposedly I had sole responsibility for teaching, but my cooperating teacher jumped in and scrubbed some of my lessons to spend more time working on how to beat the exam portion. I had to weigh that. The kids miss out on important and interesting content so they can perform better on a test, but that test gives them the chance for cheap college credit, and it protects his job if they pass. I've also put in some time as an essay scorer in the big pile of poo poo that is the standardized testing industry, so I had some insight into what exactly they needed to get done to score well. I created what I think was probably a pretty interesting and engaging lesson about the Declaration of Independence, appropriate to 10th graders. Did we do that lesson? Nope. Instead I bashed together a pretty strong lesson drawing on my scoring experience. I figure I probably pushed some kids over the line to where they have a chance to earn gen-ed history credits on the cheap. They'll do better on the ACT/SAT written exam to get into college. They'll have a better chance to get that AP credit. So... yay? They'll do better on a piece of poo poo test that doesn't measure anything that actually matters. I also invited the school principal to observe my lessons, so that when I applied to some other school, or to his school, and they asked him, he could say that he'd seen me teach. He came in to my AP Government class, and without going into intensely boring pedagogy for teaching 16-18 year old kids, the lesson was that I put useful information in front of them and gave them time to look at it in groups, and then I had a conversation with them about the content. His comments on the observation consisted pretty much entirely of "where is my data?" and "give me data!" poo poo. When I went over it with him later my response was (briefly), "this is AP Government, these kids self-selected to take a harder version of this course, they know that pop quizzes are bullshit, so I'll find out if they learned it on the test at the end of the chapter." Basically, most of the kids are too smart for me to gently caress them around on a daily basis to produce data for admin. Kids know busy work when you assign it, so I concentrated on getting a qualitative feel for their progress instead of producing quantitative data for you (when, subtext, you won't do anything with it anyway). We're also in a weird position because we're teaching these kids government in late November 2016--get loving serious here, all of this good government bullshit about the electoral college, the function of the media, the "paradox of American democracy" in that it functions effectively even when the public has a low overall knowledge of history, policy, current events, etc. That's obsolete. Does the American political system function well in spite of voters being poorly informed? Does it really? Get serious. I had a student who refused to sit in her assigned seat because the other two people in her table group were Mexicans. You have to thread the gap between the kids' idiot Trump-voting parents and their lived reality, where they have to anticipate going to college, or joining the workforce, or joining the army, in an age of uncertainty. I was talking to a kid the other day, who is a junior in high school but has somehow already committed to enlistment in the US Army as soon as he graduates. I had to explain to him that when Fox News has a headline in the form of a question ("Voter Fraud? In Hillary Clinton Popular Vote Victory") it means the article is made up. This is a kid who will maybe someday have to fight in a place I don't even know where.
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Dec 11, 2016 09:10
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Getting college credit is swell but you have to also ask yourself if you actually gain anything taking, you know, real university level history classes. As someone who teaches those I pretty strongly believe that yeah you do and it's not only getting the reference when I compare Trump to James K Polk. Also the answer to "uni credits are expensive" is to take your gen ed stuff at a community college. They are heads and shoulders above AP level and don't cost anywhere near university prices. You're in high school? Check your state laws because in mine CC courses are free if you're enrolled in HS.
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Dec 11, 2016 14:33
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Oh please, this is modern America, people don't think logically. Hell yeah it makes sense to go to a community college for your gen eds, it lets you stay at home and ease your way into a proper college setting for a few years, make sure it's really for you, etc. before moving out to a university. Speaking as someone who went through the whole dog and pony show that is applying for college just last year, though, nobody thinks like that. Do keep in mind that this is just a personal anecdote with a sample size of one school, but "community college" is almost a dirty word. If you're going to a community college it's because you're too stupid, or to poor, or too immature, or too WHATEVER to get into a "real" college. If you aren't going to a proper university it's because you're a miserable failure who can't handle being an adult and needs to stay at home with mommy, not someone who's making the best choice for themselves after weighing all the options. I don't know if it's the faculty, the program, the parents, or what - but that was the environment that myself and my friends had to make our "choices" in. I'm hoping that's not representative of the experience across the country (and in fact, it probably isn't - I went through an IB program that was 85% middle/upper class white kids - probably not a representative sample of America), but in my case there certainly was incredible societal pressure not to go to community college even if it made sense for one reason or another. As early as 9th grade it's drilled into you that university is the entire reason you're here, and deviating from that course at all gets you ostracized by not only other kids, but by much of the faculty, and even your family. I'm lucky enough that I've never had to deal with that, but I've seen it first hand. Point is, when you're in an environment that aggressively pushes university as the only correct path to your future, getting every scrap of potential credit you can looks rather enticing, not just to save money once you get there, but because (truthfully or not) you're constantly told that you need to take all the higher level courses you can to make your application competitive. Seems like that's a big part of the public education system, really. It's not ABOUT learning. It's about getting a piece of paper that says you passed a standardized test. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Dec 11, 2016 |
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Dec 11, 2016 15:31
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Lobster God posted:AP- Advanced Placement: the American excuse for decent secondary education. Normal US high school diplomas are insufficient for entry to UK universities (well, the decent ones anyway). Lol shut the gently caress up. Crazycryodude posted:Oh please, this is modern America, people don't think logically. The rest of your post is good, and I empathize as an ex-IB kid myself, but people are no more or less illogical than they have ever been. Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Dec 11, 2016 |
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Dec 11, 2016 15:32
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Kanine posted:any particularly good ww1 films you guys would recommend? im watching paths of glory right now and enjoying it It's not a film but the BBC mini-series "Our World War" is really good. It's a weird hyper-modern docudrama (dramamentary?) and is really cool. Just ignore the text before the beginning of each episode because it tends to be incorrect.
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Dec 11, 2016 15:52
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:The rest of your post is good, and I empathize as an ex-IB kid myself, but people are no more or less illogical than they have ever been. Fair enough. Just had to slip the edgy comments in there somewhere.
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Dec 11, 2016 15:57
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INinja132 posted:It's not a film but the BBC mini-series "Our World War" is really good. It's a weird hyper-modern docudrama (dramamentary?) and is really cool. Just ignore the text before the beginning of each episode because it tends to be incorrect. It was okay, I wished they brought in some German english speaking actors or just nutted up and used subtitles for the episode covering the young men in both countries at the same time at the start of the war. Also, the runner sections didn't need to use the GoPro shakey cam the tension was already there. The one about the tank crew was the best one.
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Dec 11, 2016 16:01
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Fuligin posted:This is from a few days ago, but I'm catching up on the thread and thought I'd chime in. Basically I'm deeply skeptical of this claim, especially when it comes from Carlin, who favors shock and narrative over the particulars of historical detail or examining his sources. There's a legacy of stereotyping eurasian peoples as savages eking out an existence in the inhospitable hellscape of the steppe that doesn't really stand up to reality. The various khanates were often rich as sin and had a lot more to gain from trade with settled peoples in China and Persia than from war. The Silk Road is often imagined as a long ribbon of civilization passing through the darkness of the inner steppe, but the Tarim Basin was actually the beating heart of the whole thing, a kind of switching station that made whichever tribes controlled it wealthy as hell. The Chinese especially were reliant on steppe horses and often engaged in bulk transactions of silk for ponies. The waters have been muddied on this by classical Chinese historiography, which tends to frame these (and most other interactions with its periphery) as tributary payments. Conflict often occurred, but it was more about the constant struggle of the Chinese imperial center's attempts to shut down a border that was innately porous; they were understandably displeased by the tendency of ostensibly "Chinese" subjects to go nomad and gently caress off for a while when the tax man came around, and they weren't super happy about unsanctioned trade (ie, trade they aren't getting a cut of) with nomads or their dependency on nomad horse herds. There was a definite distinction between Mongols, non-Mongols, and Chinese people in Mongol law but it was more of a "pay a 15 goat fine instead of 5" sort of deal than a "hold my kumis, I'm gonna put an arrow through that foreigner's eye".
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Dec 11, 2016 16:19
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Crazycryodude posted:"community college" is almost a dirty word. If you're going to a community college it's because you're too stupid, or to poor, or too immature, or too WHATEVER to get into a "real" college. If you aren't going to a proper university it's because you're a miserable failure who can't handle being an adult and needs to stay at home with mommy, not someone who's making the best choice for themselves after weighing all the options. I don't know if it's the faculty, the program, the parents, or what - but that was the environment that myself and my friends had to make our "choices" in. I. Yeah there is a lot of middle class angst tied up in that. Anecdotally one of the best historians I know got her AA on the way to a BA and eventual PhD. If you have to find someplace to knock CCs it's that a decent number of their instructors only have MAs. That said they are teaching the same intro courses frequently taught by grad students at universities, grad students that also only have MAs, if that. Increasingly you are also seeing more and more PhDs at CCs as the job market tanks. I did a stint at one to pick up a few bucks after I finished my PhD, and the courses I taught were the exact same "intro western civ" syllabus I used in an adjunct gig the semester before. Another thing on CCs and the poor opinion people have of them: that stigma doesn't apply nearly as much if you're the ~bright middle class WASP prodigy~ taking advanced CC classes while still in HS. gently caress AP just ask your school if there are any programs for taking CC classes in subjects you're advanced enough to swing AP in. As a bonus a CC class is more likely to be accepted for credit.
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Dec 11, 2016 17:31
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Community college stigma also diminishes as a function of age. Taking CC classes in your 20s or 30s to finish a degree (or start one) isn't a big deal at all, it's practical and economical, whether you finish it there or transfer to a larger university. Coming out of high school, I could see it being used as a status thing, especially if most of your peers are going to Big Fancy U and the implication is that you weren't good enough to get accepted there.
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Dec 11, 2016 17:45
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CEGEP, the equivalent of community college, is mandatory in Quebec (two years between high school and university, or three years for a technical degree.) Tuition is about $200 a semester. It's probably one of the smartest thing we've done as a society.
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Dec 11, 2016 17:47
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Crazycryodude posted:Oh please, this is modern America, people don't think logically. Hell yeah it makes sense to go to a community college for your gen eds, it lets you stay at home and ease your way into a proper college setting for a few years, make sure it's really for you, etc. before moving out to a university. Speaking as someone who went through the whole dog and pony show that is applying for college just last year, though, nobody thinks like that. Do keep in mind that this is just a personal anecdote with a sample size of one school, but "community college" is almost a dirty word. If you're going to a community college it's because you're too stupid, or to poor, or too immature, or too WHATEVER to get into a "real" college. If you aren't going to a proper university it's because you're a miserable failure who can't handle being an adult and needs to stay at home with mommy, not someone who's making the best choice for themselves after weighing all the options. I don't know if it's the faculty, the program, the parents, or what - but that was the environment that myself and my friends had to make our "choices" in. I'm hoping that's not representative of the experience across the country (and in fact, it probably isn't - I went through an IB program that was 85% middle/upper class white kids - probably not a representative sample of America), but in my case there certainly was incredible societal pressure not to go to community college even if it made sense for one reason or another. As early as 9th grade it's drilled into you that university is the entire reason you're here, and deviating from that course at all gets you ostracized by not only other kids, but by much of the faculty, and even your family. I'm lucky enough that I've never had to deal with that, but I've seen it first hand. That's basically my experience of education in the UK too. Going to university is just what you do if you're "smart".
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Dec 11, 2016 18:00
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Cyrano4747 posted:Getting college credit is swell but you have to also ask yourself if you actually gain anything taking, you know, real university level history classes. As someone who teaches those I pretty strongly believe that yeah you do and it's not only getting the reference when I compare Trump to James K Polk. I agree and I always recommend CC to college-bound kids, and kids who aren't sure about college. Also, the possibility of college credit from passing the exam is always offered to kids as the main reason to take AP, but the incentives for the schools are a little different. For one, a lot of schools are being pushed to improve "rigor" and offer better, more challenging courses, taught by more qualified teachers. The local school board or state board of education might set "more rigor" as an official yearly objective for administrators and faculty at your school. Offering more AP classes and getting more kids enrolled is a way to demonstrate you're doing that, and it's cheaper and easier than, say, hiring teachers with graduate degrees. All you have to do is train a teacher to be familiar with the cookie-cutter AP curriculum, and tell the smart kids to enroll. Principal can tell his boss, "Since last year we added two new AP Courses and increased enrollment in AP sections by 50 seats." If you have a choice between a move that produces quantitative data that will fit on a powerpoint slide, and qualitative improvements that probably better represent actual rigor, go with the numbers every time. For two, the AP exam is another source of student achievement data, and it is one where the school can grease the numbers a little bit. You select the smartest kids. The admin sets it up so that a student has to get a referral from a teacher or counselor to enroll in the AP course. It's mostly smart, ambitious kids who even bother asking, but you can weed out the ones who simply have no chance before they even walk into the classroom. Once they're in, the teacher is keeping track of their grades. The ones who fail out the first semester go down the hall to the regular version of the same course for the second semester. They don't take the AP exam. You also have the kids who are keeping it together to pass the classroom portion of the course, but aren't developing the skills or knowledge to pass the exam. Their parents are probably paying out of pocket for their kid to take the exam, why not save them the money and the effort by quietly discouraging those kids from taking it? Really, you're doing them a favor. Right? After all this you get to May, and some proportion of the kids take the AP exam, and some percentage of them pass, and eventually College Board spits those numbers back to you. After this process of winnowing down the population to just the kids you think have the best chance of passing, you get data. Your principal can go to the school board and say, "we have drug dealers in the halls, half the students are failing, one in five of them drops out before graduation, but 40 of the 50 kids we allowed to take the AP US History exam scored a three or better. That's 80%, against a nationwide average of under 75%!" Accentuate the positive.
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Dec 11, 2016 18:09
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FrozenVent posted:CEGEP, the equivalent of community college, is mandatory in Quebec (two years between high school and university, or three years for a technical degree.) Tuition is about $200 a semester. $200? How am I supposed to pay for.....Oh, Quebec, you say? CAD? Done and done  But for real, that's a good way to approach this. Free is better, but almost anything is better than the US system.
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Dec 11, 2016 18:16
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Heh, look at you suckers and having to pay for education 
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Dec 11, 2016 18:48
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MANime in the sheets posted:$200? How am I supposed to pay for.....Oh, Quebec, you say? CAD? Done and done University is probably the cheapest in North America too, about 100$ per credit.
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Dec 11, 2016 18:56
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I took AP when I was in high school. The AP and Honors (the step above normal but below AP) courses tend to have the exact same group of kids in your graduating class from beginning to end, so you end up with a lot of familiar faces for a year or two. They varied wildly in quality: * AP American History was great. The teacher (the husband of my guidance counselor) was a witty, intelligent guy who had an engaging way of speaking and got along with everyone from day one. Despite suffering from teaching to the test like everyone else, he actually made a serious effort to try and get information across in a way that teenagers would be able to listen to. We also got to watch Saving Private Ryan for the World War II chapter. Everyone in class loved the guy and we ended up making "We Didn't Start the Fire" class shirts after our AP exam suddenly got canceled midway through because a kid set a restroom on fire. * AP Macroeconomics was boring as hell, taught in a droning tone with 100% emphasis on being able to pass the exams (especially the multiple choice sections). Being a morning class in a school that started classes at 7:30 AM probably didn't help, but I learned practically nothing of use. * AP Government was hilariously awful at passing on any information because the teacher was a Southern woman who could be distracted into talking about virtually any subject, which the students gleefully took advantage of. It passed on less knowledge than browsing Wikipedia. * AP Psychology could have been good, as it was an interesting class with a knowledgeable teacher who held a doctorate. Unfortunately he was a complete rear end in a top hat to students because he thought it was funny and tried to dominate everyone's homework by mandating home reading of each subsequent chapter with a massive (graded) packet of questions to answer for each chapter, which would take an hour or two to complete depending on your reading speed. This meant that you'd end up with a low grade in the class even if you did well on the exams because of the lack of time to complete the attached packet. In my experience, the definition of "college-level classes" is that the knowledge covered in the class is similar in content and scope to what's covered by a college class. However, it totally lacks any of the emphasis college has on independent critical thinking; not only is the AP exam the forefront of the teaching, it's based entirely around being able to regurgitate information even in the essay questions. Anyone who can memorize the book can pass the class, even though they'd bomb trying it in college. In general, I saw a lot of excellent high school students gently caress up when they went to college. A friend of mine had high grades since kindergarten and went into microbiology at UCF, only to abandon the major after a year because she was only so good for her ability to memorize. She totally lacked the appropriate creative thinking skills and ability to understand information to succeed in such a complex subject.
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Dec 11, 2016 19:09
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spectralent posted:That's basically my experience of education in the UK too. Going to university is just what you do if you're "smart". Whats the CC equivalent in the UK?
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Dec 11, 2016 19:18
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University or College. We have "higher education" and "further education", which is a split between universities and colleges - where college means usually doing a specific course, technical qualifications alongside more traditionally academic ones and they're also for night schools and mature students. You're usually only at college 16-18, after which you might go to a university. The closest we have to community colleges are probably some of the smaller universities that became unis in the 60s or 1992 - though some of them are actually great, the post 92 unis are usually not so great. The uk has a couple of very hazy tiers of university, but they are very variable and an old "ex-poly" or technical college can actually be a pretty drat good university.
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Dec 11, 2016 19:32
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Can anyone tell me more about how forts in the Netherlands used flooding as a defense? Learned a bit about it today that supposedly they planned to use cannons to blow up dams but not rly and it sounds crazy. Rodrigo Diaz posted:Lol shut the gently caress up. Also seriously that was the most ridiculous explanation of APs vs A levels.
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Dec 11, 2016 19:39
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chitoryu12 posted:
Things are no doubt shittier today, but the AP classes I took generally placed way more emphasis on critical thinking than most 100-level college courses. Especially English Lit and European History, I had to get up to 300-level courses before my college history professors cared a thin dime for independent critical thinking.
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Dec 11, 2016 20:01
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You'll get universities that provide more part-time or extension degree courses as opposed to focusing on getting undergraduates enrolled in academic subjects at 18, but it's variable. And while there are "tiers" of universities, (usually the original university as the better one, and the local polytechnic which got turned into a university for the worse one), many less respected universities will have fields of study they are very competitive in. League table rankings (both general and subject-specific) are very important in terms of perception in the UK though.
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Dec 11, 2016 20:47
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It just occurred to me that it's quite possible that a war in the near future might result in people who played World of Tanks/War Thunder commanding real tanks against each other. I hope that if it happens, someone records it.
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Dec 11, 2016 20:50
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wdarkk posted:It just occurred to me that it's quite possible that a war in the near future might result in people who played World of Tanks/War Thunder commanding real tanks against each other. Russian bias
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Dec 11, 2016 20:54
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wdarkk posted:It just occurred to me that it's quite possible that a war in the near future might result in people who played World of Tanks/War Thunder commanding real tanks against each other. Let's be real here, they're going to be loaders.
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Dec 11, 2016 21:10
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Phanatic posted:Things are no doubt shittier today, but the AP classes I took generally placed way more emphasis on critical thinking than most 100-level college courses. Especially English Lit and European History, I had to get up to 300-level courses before my college history professors cared a thin dime for independent critical thinking. You had some terrible intro history profs. You have to start hammering critical thinking and analysis there so students are actually capable of it for a upper level seminar.
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Dec 11, 2016 21:11
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Cyrano4747 posted:You had some terrible intro history profs. You have to start hammering critical thinking and analysis there so students are actually capable of it for a upper level seminar. Well any history teacher should be doing this. For those who aren't at the end of high school the critical thinking does not need to be as deep, but for history to have any worth as a subject it is important to treat it as more then just a list of dates.
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Dec 11, 2016 22:32
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Let's be real here, they're going to be loaders. You need physical strength to be a loader. wdarkk posted:It just occurred to me that it's quite possible that a war in the near future might result in people who played World of Tanks/War Thunder commanding real tanks against each other. Based on my experience, half the company will camp base and the other half will drive into the lake.
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Dec 11, 2016 22:37
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Ensign Expendable posted:You need physical strength to be a loader. Well they'll have pretty beastly forearms. TerminalSaint fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Dec 11, 2016 |
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Dec 11, 2016 22:39
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wdarkk posted:It just occurred to me that it's quite possible that a war in the near future might result in people who played World of Tanks/War Thunder commanding real tanks against each other. There were goons on the opposing sides of the war in Ukraine. I say "were" because I'm pretty sure the Russian one is dead now.
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Dec 11, 2016 22:41
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TerminalSaint posted:We'll they'll have pretty beastly forearms. You need both though, just your right arm isn't enough.
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Dec 11, 2016 22:46
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my dad posted:There were goons on the opposing sides of the war in Ukraine. I say "were" because I'm pretty sure the Russian one is dead now.
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Dec 11, 2016 22:47
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my dad posted:There were goons on the opposing sides of the war in Ukraine. I say "were" because I'm pretty sure the Russian one is dead now. The Something Awful forums: meet interesting new people and possibly kill them. On a more serious note (and to try and steer the MilHist thread back towards MilHist), this got me thinking. Has there ever been a war where people on opposite sides were even as remotely connected as they are in some wars today?
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Dec 11, 2016 23:02
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American Civil War?
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Dec 11, 2016 23:04
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