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blaise? sorry to hear that my man, the last time i traveled i got sick and stayed sick for a month. it is definitely winter.
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Dec 12, 2016 01:26
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The Lord is with you, Bel_Canto!Tuxedo Catfish posted:This mindset is so alien to me. I'm perversely motivated by the expectation that selfishness and tyranny have the advantage in nearly every respect and that being a good person is alike to spiting the universe for working the way it does. In nearly every respect except at least in one, and that is the respect of the Kingdom of Heaven. Who wants to be an oppressor when the Lord asks what have you done for the least among my brothers and sisters? But being oppressed is a great trauma that is inflicted on some (possibly many, possibly all) people. This trauma is absolutely non-trivial by the estimations of God, and they have life-and-death consequences. To heal the pain of oppressed peoples requires a response of great love, the kind of love Jesus taught. At least for me, there is a lot to empathize with both the oppressor and the oppressed.
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Dec 12, 2016 01:47
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the oppressor mutilates their own spirit when they do evil. the oppressed can still be a good person.
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Dec 12, 2016 01:55
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Bel_Canto posted:could i ask for everyone's prayers? this is the second weekend in a row that i've been too ill to go to Mass, and it's making me really miserable not to be able to be in the presence of God and partake of the Sacrament. You betcha. Hope you get well soon.
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Dec 12, 2016 02:40
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:They posit further that one "cannot by my own thinking or choosing believe in Jesus Christ" so I guess if anything they veer more towards Calvinism. They would much rather say the Holy Spirit works faith in you after you hear the Word than say you accepted the Holy Spirit in any sense. Ehhhhhh, my understanding of it is similar to this, but also different. I would not say, like is kind of implied in the bolded part here, that the Spirit comes into a person and forces them to do anything, or turns them into a zombie ("graaaaaace"). Rather I would say that the Lutheran idea is more along the lines of: a person chooses to receive God's grace, and it is God and the Spirit which give the human the ability to do this. So it's a bit like God is casting a buff spell on you that gives you a new activated ability  I did find a couple web pages for people interested in how Lutheranism is similar and different to Calvinism and Arminianism: https://allkirk.net/2015/09/22/setting-the-record-straight-on-lutheranism-four-myths/ https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/was-luther-a-calvinist
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Dec 12, 2016 03:00
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HEY GAL posted:the oppressor mutilates their own spirit when they do evil. the oppressed can still be a good person. look up han and minjung theology, oppression doesn't just mutilate oppressors it has lasting spiritual, social, emotional, mental, and sometimes physical damage that transcends the dichotomy of sinner/sin and becomes sinner/sin/sinned against
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Dec 12, 2016 03:00
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That's rather similar to the Methodist concept of prevenient grace - that God is at work in our hearts to prepare us for receiving him before we even know he exists. Ultimately, though, faith is not compelled. It must be chosen by the individual, although freely available to all. We must exercise our free will in a positive decision.
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Dec 12, 2016 03:04
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Thirteen Orphans posted:*Liberation theology intensifying* Tuxedo Catfish posted:One of my favorite things I've encountered in this thread is that story about the old woman who wants to quench Hell and tear down the gates of Heaven. I find these both funny and very much in line with my own thinking. I cannot pray sincerely, but I do hope that you get better soon. Also, make sure to drink as much as you can when you feel able to. Otherwise you might not be able to go. Caufman posted:In nearly every respect except at least in one, and that is the respect of the Kingdom of Heaven. Who wants to be an oppressor when the Lord asks what have you done for the least among my brothers and sisters? Because you can simply decide that God meant this to be something you need to do to further His divine plan. I mean otherwise He'd have stopped you, right? Plus then you bury the people who you've oppressed and don't need to think about them, because you won and have been forgiven. Even if there is a heaven and it's perfect and you don't get to go I doubt that is much good for the oppressed. Especially if they don't even believe in a heaven and would actually just prefer to not be being oppressed thank you. HEY GAL posted:the oppressor mutilates their own spirit when they do evil. the oppressed can still be a good person. Is there anything that all Christian sects, or the larger ones lets say, believe is an evil?
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Dec 12, 2016 12:52
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Josef bugman posted:I cannot pray sincerely, but I do hope that you get better soon. Also, make sure to drink as much as you can when you feel able to. Otherwise you might not be able to go.
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Dec 12, 2016 15:02
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Josef bugman posted:Is there anything that all Christian sects, or the larger ones lets say, believe is an evil? Depends on the definition of evil but the ten commandments are at least a solid basis for what is and isn't wrong. One could assume that deliberately doing things that you know to be wrong and could avoid doing is evil. I strongly dislike the use of the word evil when talking about other people, though. In a world ridden with sin, weakness in the face of moral choices is pretty much the norm so labeling "evil" on people and deeds often assumes more than one can possibly know. And can be kinda evil in itself.
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Dec 12, 2016 15:06
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i get what you're saying, but am ok with calling acts evil, just not people. this is reminding me of a conversation a friend of mine had about a guy he knows who did something really hosed up to his girlfriend--the friend kept calling this guy "scum" and i was voting for "sonofabitch" because "scum" implies he can't change.
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Dec 12, 2016 15:14
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Seems kinda nitpicky? We're all capable of being scum, we're also all capable of stop being scum again.Valiantman posted:Depends on the definition of evil but the ten commandments are at least a solid basis for what is and isn't wrong. One could assume that deliberately doing things that you know to be wrong and could avoid doing is evil. I strongly dislike the use of the word evil when talking about other people, though. In a world ridden with sin, weakness in the face of moral choices is pretty much the norm so labeling "evil" on people and deeds often assumes more than one can possibly know. And can be kinda evil in itself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do all denominations elevate TTC to 'law'? I thought that went out with the new covenant. I mean, I identify as christian to some extent, and I play that stuff loose. I don't consider it wrong to desire other people's wives and husbands, as long as we're talking consenting adults, for instance - On the other hand, I really detest lying and rarely do so myself, even under duress. Tias fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 16:06
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Nice av, Tias. Pipeline?
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Dec 12, 2016 16:08
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Tias posted:Seems kinda nitpicky? We're all capable of being scum, we're also all capable of stop being scum again.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:10
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HEY GAL posted:i get what you're saying, but am ok with calling acts evil, just not people. this is reminding me of a conversation a friend of mine had about a guy he knows who did something really hosed up to his girlfriend--the friend kept calling this guy "scum" and i was voting for "sonofabitch" because "scum" implies he can't change. Has he changed? Because I would put money down that he won't, even if he could. Valiantman posted:Depends on the definition of evil but the ten commandments are at least a solid basis for what is and isn't wrong. One could assume that deliberately doing things that you know to be wrong and could avoid doing is evil. I strongly dislike the use of the word evil when talking about other people, though. In a world ridden with sin, weakness in the face of moral choices is pretty much the norm so labeling "evil" on people and deeds often assumes more than one can possibly know. And can be kinda evil in itself. I'd partially argue that point Considering that you could conceivably, and correctly, argue that the 10 commandments do not provide a guide to evil. They miss out things that we would, rightfully, consider to be evils in this day and age, they are easily argued against in simple terms of "what if your father abuses you" or "How/ Is murder distinct from 'killing'". I agree with you on people often should not be distinctly blamed for their weakness in teh face of moral choice, but there must be some blame given out for people who commit monstrosity.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:12
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Josef bugman posted:Has he changed? Because I would put money down that he won't, even if he could.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:25
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my dad posted:Nice av, Tias. Pipeline? Oh yes. Legalistic cop-worshipping goons are bound to get their own circle in hell  HEY GAL posted:it was super nitpicky--"scum" implies a permanent state to me, and i don't know where that came from Oh ok, I getcha! Josef bugman posted:I agree with you on people often should not be distinctly blamed for their weakness in teh face of moral choice, but there must be some blame given out for people who commit monstrosity. True, but keep in mind that we leave the judgment up to God. We have to stop transgressions against other people on the basis that harming others is bad, though.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:29
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HEY GAL posted:not yet, but he may change in the future. I admire your optimism. To my mind the only thing that changes someones mind after a certain point is either a stroke or death.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:29
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Josef bugman posted:I admire your optimism. To my mind the only thing that changes someones mind after a certain point is either a stroke or death. I change my mind all the time Samurai Shodown 2 is good now
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Dec 12, 2016 16:35
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Josef bugman posted:I admire your optimism. To my mind the only thing that changes someones mind after a certain point is either a stroke or death.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:38
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HEY GAL posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/the-white-flight-of-derek-black/2016/10/15/ed5f906a-8f3b-11e6-a6a3-d50061aa9fae_story.html The difference is between one who believes something, and then is proven wrong, and someone who does bad things. The former can always change their mind. The latter I am not so sure.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:46
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Josef bugman posted:The difference is between one who believes something, and then is proven wrong, and someone who does bad things. The former can always change their mind. The latter I am not so sure. I used to do bad things
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Dec 12, 2016 16:48
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so did moses the black or the dog-headed people who followed Saint Mercurius around
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Dec 12, 2016 16:54
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Josef bugman posted:I admire your optimism. To my mind the only thing that changes someones mind after a certain point is either a stroke or death. I think you're thinking about yourself. I had a spiritual experience at the age of 29, that led me to give up lying, addiction and despair, and gave me hope for the future. A lot of incredibly destructive viewpoints and behaviours started disappearing after that. Not saying I'm particularly good or anything, but I had never in my wildest dreams imagined I would change, and I did.
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Dec 12, 2016 16:55
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Josef bugman posted:The difference is between one who believes something, and then is proven wrong, and someone who does bad things. The former can always change their mind. The latter I am not so sure. Yeah, I don't like Saul either.
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Dec 12, 2016 17:01
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Tias posted:I think you're thinking about yourself. I had a spiritual experience at the age of 29, that led me to give up lying, addiction and despair, and gave me hope for the future. A lot of incredibly destructive viewpoints and behaviours started disappearing after that. If you have given up lying then I am more impressed. I'd personally call it a falsehood unless you've done as a lot of people do and go "but thats only what I know" after most statements. From purely personal perspective find precious few things to hope for. Would be interested to here what you feel is worth hoping for. HEY GAL posted:so did moses the black More info on these would be appreciated. Although "Moses the Black" does sound like one hell of a metal band. Smoking Crow posted:I used to do bad things Sure, and so did other people and we continue to do bad things. The difference is between bad things and Monstrosity, which again is one of those irritating things we can't agree on. Samuel Clemens posted:Yeah, I don't like Saul either. Also needing info on this. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 17:04
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Josef bugman posted:More info on these would be appreciated. Although "Moses the Black" does sound like one hell of a metal band. this is st. mercurius. his legend says he had two companions from the Cynocephali, the dog-headed ethnic group, and that before they became Christian they ate St. Mercurius's father.
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Dec 12, 2016 17:12
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Josef bugman posted:More info on these would be appreciated. Although "Moses the Black" does sound like one hell of a metal band.  Very clearly defined "not a cool dude" and "very cool dude" stages in his life, since he used to be a bandit.
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Dec 12, 2016 17:17
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HEY GAL posted:moses the black is a saint who used to be a thief and then converted from that path. I mean thievery makes sense as a bad thing in a nation state that is prior to industrialisation, but nowadays? I wouldn't see theft of bread or necessities as necessarily bad. We've legislated too many evils into being to give a poo poo if someone (say) takes 12 bouncy eggs from a shop and replaces them with real eggs. Theft of something larger, say, pensions from people who need them, or bread from the mouths of others or anything like that? That I could see being bad. But just taking things? I am not so sure. It doesn't seem to mention that on Wiki, will look him up. my dad posted:
I am sorry to say but I am surprised no-one has photoshopped the Pulp Fiction quote on there.
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Dec 12, 2016 17:19
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my dad posted:
Want that picture on my wall.
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Dec 12, 2016 17:22
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Josef bugman posted:If you have given up lying then I am more impressed. I'd personally call it a falsehood unless you've done as a lot of people do and go "but thats only what I know" after most statements. From purely personal perspective find precious few things to hope for. Would be interested to here what you feel is worth hoping for. As I said in my prior post, I've given it up in the sense that I rarely feel the need to lie, try not to act on it, and admit it and make amends once I do it anyway - compared to my earlier life where I lied compulsively and constantly. I have hope for an enjoyable life, full of love and relaxation, and so far I've found it.
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Dec 12, 2016 17:22
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Tias posted:As I said in my prior post, I've given it up in the sense that I rarely feel the need to lie, try not to act on it, and admit it and make amends once I do it anyway - compared to my earlier life where I lied compulsively and constantly. Fair enough, in which case best of luck. I hope that if you've found what your looking for then you've found it. Personally? If I am being truly personal I think that being happy is, whilst a good thing, not something for everyone.
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Dec 12, 2016 17:37
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Josef bugman posted:Also needing info on this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle He's kind of a big deal in Christianity.
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Dec 12, 2016 17:59
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Samuel Clemens posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle Got mixed up and thought you meant the kingly bloke (david and so on) Isn't he just though. I did hear this from an atheist and not a Christian, but they always said that a great many people seemed to prefer Paul over Christ, because they followed his example far more than His example. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 18:11
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 Don't mind me, just putting a badass image of a Cistercian abbess wearing a deacon's stole and crosier here. The image shows the abbess of the Royal Abbey of Santa Marķa la Real de Las Huelgas near Burgos, Spain. Until 1873, the privileges of the abbess grew such that they paralleled even the bishop's: quote:The Abbess of the monastery was, by the favor of the king, invested with almost royal prerogatives, and exercised an unlimited secular authority over more than fifty villages. Like secular lords, she held her own courts, in civil and criminal cases, and, like bishops, she granted Dimissorial Letters for ordination, and issued licenses authorizing priests within the territory of her abbatial jurisdiction to hear confessions, to preach, and to engage in pastoral care. She was privileged also to confirm the Abbesses of other monasteries, to impose censures, and to convoke synods She also used to wear the Mitre, read the gospel, delivered the sermon and apparently even took confession. Novices had to kneel down in front of her and wear an oath of everlasting loyalty, just like priests to their bishop. The German historian Michael von Fürstenberg counted at least two dozen abbeys throughout Europe, where (at least before the Council of Trent) the abbesses enjoyed comparable privileges. According to Hubert Wolf, this number might even be too low. It's probably no coincidence that the rites for the benediction of an abbess in some parts seem to hint at a relationship to the ordination rites of a deacon (e.g. the "Exaudi, Domine, preces nostra", which was part of both) and even that of a bishop (e.g. the laying on of hands and a consecrating prayer that speaks of the new abbess "governing" her church and implies some old sort of jurisdictional power that was connected to the office). This was seen by some to be quite explosive; the Benedictine historian Pierre de Puniet (1877-1941) felt obliged to stress that, even though the rites of abbatial benediction greatly resemble an episcopal ordination in part, the "somewhat forceful words of liturgy" should be dismissed "without giving too much weight to the qualms of the scholars". Ironically it was the Second Vatican Council of all things that put a definite end to that tradition and reduced the abbatial benediction (at least that of a woman, I don't know about abbots in this case) to a mere blessing rite.  Another image, either from Las Huelgas or from Santa Marķa de Valldonzella in Barcelona  This picture (Las Huelgas again) shows the abbess wearing something that seems to resemble a pluviale or even a dalmatic? And finally another image showing that even the last council couldn't take the nuns' self-confidence away:  
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Dec 12, 2016 19:29
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Josef bugman posted:Is there anything that all Christian sects, or the larger ones lets say, believe is an evil?
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Dec 12, 2016 19:39
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Can we talk about the angel Raphael? I've just become interested in him/it, but I only have the wikipedia and don't really know where else to find legit info.. Josef bugman posted:Fair enough, in which case best of luck. It's for more people than are currently afforded the chance to find it. Social justice is a prequirement for any happiness at all, and our world is making a colossal mess of it 
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Dec 12, 2016 19:50
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Tias posted:Can we talk about the angel Raphael? I've just become interested in him/it, but I only have the wikipedia and don't really know where else to find legit info.. He shows up in the book of Tobit, which is canonical for Catholics (and (most?) Eastern Orthodox?), but not for (most?) Protestants. Tobit is a weird book of the Bible - one commentary I read said that, to contemporary readers, it may as well have started with "Once upon a time," - and it involves two people who really need help. Tobiah's wife helps another family and gets a goat as a gift, but Tobiah accuses her of stealing it, and then goes to sleep outside, at which point a bird craps in his eyes and renders him blind. Meanwhile, Sarah keeps getting married - and has been married six times so far - but a jealous demon is stalking her and kills her husbands on her wedding night. So she prays that God will just kill her already. Enter Raphael, who tells Tobiah that he's a kinsman of Sarah, and conveniently he has an unmarried son, Tobit, and wouldn't it be great if Tobit and Sarah got married, because then they could take care of blind wife-slandering Tobiah himself? And Raphael just happens to live in the city Sarah lives in, and will happily take Tobit there and then Tobit and Sarah back for no fee! Off Raphael and Tobit go, when suddenly a giant fish attacks Tobit. Raphael kills it and tells Tobit to save the organs for medicine. Tobit and Sarah get married, and Raphael tells Tobit to use the (presumably now several days old) organs as incense to keep the demon away. It works; the smell is so bad that the demon flees to the desert, where Raphael ties him up and leaves him. Then they return to Tobiah's house, where Raphael smears fish guts on Tobiah's eyes and the bird crap peels away like fish scales. Success! Tobiah can see, and Sarah's not cursed by a demon stalker! Raphael reveals that he's an angel and tootles off back to Heaven. The end.
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Dec 12, 2016 20:03
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Josef bugman posted:If you have given up lying then I am more impressed. I'd personally call it a falsehood unless you've done as a lot of people do and go "but thats only what I know" after most statements. From purely personal perspective find precious few things to hope for. Would be interested to here what you feel is worth hoping for. I hurt the people I love and now I try to make up for it
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Dec 12, 2016 20:22
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Raphael also appears plenty of times in extra-biblical Jewish and later Christian literature. The Babylonian Talmud mentions him as a healer:Yoma 37a posted:And so also we find with the three angels Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael, who came to Abraham our father. Gabriel's errand was to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah; Raphael's was to heal Abraham; and Michael's, to inform Sarah. He combats demons: Book of Enoch 10, 4-9 posted:4. And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azāzźl hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dūdāźl, and cast him therein. 5. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. 6. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. 8. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azāzźl: to him ascribe all sin.' Book of Enoch 54, 6 posted:And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of [the hosts Azāzźl] on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.' (Azāzźl was the demon who, according to Enoch, taught mankind how to create and use weapons, btw) He is mentioned a number of times elsewhere in the Book of Enoch too, for example as a healing angel again: Book of Enoch 40, 9 posted:And he said to me: 'This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.' And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days. as an angelus interpres, i.e. someone who tells you what's what: Book of Enoch 22, 3 posted:Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me [in Sheol, i.e. the Underworld], and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period ⌈till the period appointed⌉, till the great judgement (comes) upon them.' Book of Enoch 32, 6 posted:Then Raphael the holy angel, who was with me, answered me ⌈⌈and said⌉⌉: 'This is the tree of wisdom, of which thy father old (in years) and thy aged mother, who were before thee, have eaten, and they learnt wisdom and their eyes were opened, and they knew that they were naked and they were driven out of the garden.' The War Scroll of Qumran mentions him in a military context: 1QM 9 posted:(10) Rule for changing the order of the battle divisions, in order to arrange their position against [...] a pincer movement and towers, as does the Apolcalypse of Ezra: Apocalypse of Ezra 1,4 posted:And there came Raphael the commander of the host [archistrategos], and gave me a storax rod. In the same text he is numbered amongst those angels who oversee either the end of a man's life or the end of the world altogether: Apocalypse of Ezra 6? Can't find proper verse numbers for this one posted:And I said to the Lord: O Lord God, and what man, then, who has been born has not sinned? And they took me lower down into Tartarus, and I saw all the sinners lamenting and weeping and mourning bitterly. And I also wept, seeing the race of men thus tormented. Then God says to me: Knowest thou, Esdras, the names of the angels at the end of the world? Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, Raphael, Gabuthelon, Aker, Arphugitonos, Beburos, Zebuleon. Then there came a voice to me: Come hither and die, Esdras, my beloved; give that which hath been entrusted to thee. And the prophet said: And whence can you bring forth my soul? And the angels said: We can put it forth through the mouth. And the prophet said: Mouth to mouth have I spoken with God, and it comes not forth thence. And the angels said: Let us bring it out through thy nostrils. And the prophet said: My nostrils have smelled the sweet savour of the glory of God. And the angels said: We can bring it out through thine eyes. And the prophet said: Mine eyes have seen the back parts of God. And the angels said: We can bring it out through the crown of thy head. And the prophet said: I walked about with Moses also on the mountain, and it comes not forth thence. And the angels said: We can put it forth through the points of thy nails. And the prophet said: My feet also have walked about on the altar. And the angels went away without having done anything, saying: Lord, we cannot get his soul. The Sybilline Oracles mention him in the same vein: Sib 2, 214-219 posted:Then will the angels of the immortal God He destroys Satan on the reg: Questions of Bartholomew 4 posted:25 And Beliar answered and said: If thou wilt know my name, at the first I was called Satanael, which is interpreted a messenger of God, but when I rejected the image of God my name was called Satanas, that is, an angel that keepeth hell (Tartarus). 26 And again Bartholomew saith unto him: Reveal unto me all things and hide nothing from me. 27 And he said unto him: I swear unto thee by the power of the glory of God that even if I would hide aught I cannot, for he is near that would convict me. For if I were able I would have destroyed you like one of them that were before you. 28 For, indeed, I was formed (al. called) the first angel: for when God made the heavens, he took a handful of fire and formed me first, Michael second [Vienna MS. here has these sentences: for he had his Son before the heavens and the earth and we were formed (for when he took thought to create all things, his Son spake a word), so that we also were created by the will of the Son and the consent of the Father. He formed, I say, first me, next Michael the chief captain of the hosts that are above], Gabriel third, Uriel fourth, Raphael fifth, Nathanael sixth, and other angels of whom I cannot tell the names. [Jerusalem MS., Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Xathanael, and other 6,000 angels. Lat. I, Michael the honour of power, third Raphael, fourth Gabriel, and other seven. Lat. 2, Raphael third, Gabriel fourth, Uriel fifth, Zathael sixth, and other six.] For they are the rod-bearers (lictors) of God, and they smite me with their rods and pursue me seven times in the night and seven times in the day, and leave me not at all and break in pieces all my power. These are the (twelve, Lat. 2) angels of vengeance which stand before the throne of God: these are the angels that were first formed. And here I'll translate from a German biblical encyclopedia because I don't think I can easily find English translations for most of the stuff mentioned here: quote:[Raphael] is described as an angel of healing (e.g. Origen, Homiliae in numeros 14,2; De principiis 1,8, 1), is shown as a heavenly doctor (Fresco of Palermo) or it the angel with the sacred oils (Coptic Apocalypse of Bartholomew 85-86). System Metternich fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 21:09
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