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That's amazing, thank you so much System!
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Dec 12, 2016 21:15
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Murder. Adultery. The catch comes when you define 'murder' or 'adultery'; there is no definition for either that all the major Christian sects agree on. For instance, if you get legally divorced under the laws of your country, are you committing adultery? Catholics say yup. Similarly, the definition of what is 'murder' and what is 'justified killing' is exquisitely reasoned. That does tend to be the question. Though even now I think it might be hard to find Catholic priests considering "Adultery" an actual evil right? I mean somewhat dickish, but evil always seems much worse to me than just two people boning. Tias posted:It's for more people than are currently afforded the chance to find it. Social justice is a prequirement for any happiness at all, and our world is making a colossal mess of it I thought Raphael was a lady angel? I mean I know angels are usually genderless, right? It is, I personally see that there is no reason to hope for personal happiness whilst others go without. But thats a selfishness in and of itself. Smoking Crow posted:I hurt the people I love and now I try to make up for it If they still love you afterwards then you have probably made up for it. I hope anyway.
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Dec 12, 2016 21:36
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System Metternich posted:[some loving badass things about abbesses] So what I'm getting from this is "do not mess with early modern abbesses, they will gently caress you up six ways to Sunday and have nearly unlimited legal power to do so."
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Dec 12, 2016 21:39
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Josef bugman posted:That does tend to be the question. Though even now I think it might be hard to find Catholic priests considering "Adultery" an actual evil right? I mean somewhat dickish, but evil always seems much worse to me than just two people boning. To call adultery "just two people boning" seems reductive in the extreme.
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Dec 12, 2016 21:58
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CountFosco posted:To call adultery "just two people boning" seems reductive in the extreme. Well what else is it? Breaking an oath? Damaging another trust? Making a choice to abandon someone you used to care for? All of those things are, extremely, dickish. However I would argue that they are not evil. Hitting someone you are in a relationship with is, to my mind, far lower on my personal moral scale. Or psychologically abusing someone.
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Dec 12, 2016 22:01
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Josef bugman posted:Well what else is it? Breaking an oath? Damaging another trust? Making a choice to abandon someone you used to care for? All of those things are, extremely, dickish. However I would argue that they are not evil. Hitting someone you are in a relationship with is, to my mind, far lower on my personal moral scale. Or psychologically abusing someone. submitted to goons.txt
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Dec 12, 2016 22:05
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syscall girl posted:submitted to goons.txt Fair enough. Mind if I ask why?
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Dec 12, 2016 22:07
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Josef bugman posted:I thought Raphael was a lady angel? I mean I know angels are usually genderless, right?
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Dec 12, 2016 22:08
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HEY GAL posted:all angels are genderless, because gender and sexual differentiation is part of our fallen physical nature. How does that square with God making Eve from Adams rib? Were they genderless prior to the fall?
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Dec 12, 2016 22:14
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Josef bugman posted:Well what else is it? Breaking an oath? Damaging another trust? Making a choice to abandon someone you used to care for? All of those things are, extremely, dickish. However I would argue that they are not evil. Hitting someone you are in a relationship with is, to my mind, far lower on my personal moral scale. Or psychologically abusing someone. you really don't see how cheating on someone, especially after investing several years of your life in the relationship, is bad?
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Dec 12, 2016 22:15
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what do you call it when you're married for ten years, have a couple of kids together, and your husband has an affair that leads to the two of you getting an std. the damage that does to your family is pretty astronomical my man
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Dec 12, 2016 22:16
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Josef bugman posted:Fair enough. Mind if I ask why? I was kidding but making light of cheating is kind of childish. Making too big of a deal about someone cheating on you is childish too but wars have been fought about it; it's no small thing.
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Dec 12, 2016 22:16
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Mo Tzu posted:you really don't see how cheating on someone, especially after investing several years of your life in the relationship, is bad? No I do see it as bad, I just don't see it as evil.
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Dec 12, 2016 22:17
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Josef bugman posted:How does that square with God making Eve from Adams rib? Were they genderless prior to the fall? Angels were around prior to Adam and Eve, I'm pretty sure, Adam and Eve just happened to have genders before the fall. HEY GAL posted:all angels are genderless, because gender and sexual differentiation is part of our fallen physical nature. Fair enough, the wiki lists Raphael as a he, but I must admit I have not read the Book of Tobin yet.
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Dec 12, 2016 22:17
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Josef bugman posted:How does that square with God making Eve from Adams rib? Were they genderless prior to the fall?
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Dec 12, 2016 22:18
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Josef bugman posted:No I do see it as bad, I just don't see it as evil. you don't see a dude breaking his girl's trust and throwing away their relationship with all the time and energy and emotion devoted to it in order to get some side strange evil you don't see a dude exposing his kids to that sort of argument as evil like cheating has a lot of consequences beyond loving that seem pretty dang near evil. course i think the dichotomy you seem to have between evil/bad is pretty dumb my man so what do i know
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Dec 12, 2016 22:20
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Josef bugman posted:How does that square with God making Eve from Adams rib? Were they genderless prior to the fall? the hebrew used to refer to adam prior to eve's creation is genderless, and afterwards he becomes masculine and eve feminine so yeah
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Dec 12, 2016 22:21
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Mo Tzu posted:what do you call it when you're married for ten years, have a couple of kids together, and your husband has an affair that leads to the two of you getting an std two people boning
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Dec 12, 2016 22:27
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Mo Tzu posted:the hebrew used to refer to adam prior to eve's creation is genderless, and afterwards he becomes masculine and eve feminine so yeah But that's not prior to the fall, the fall happens later. HEY GAL posted:in the opinion of several Orthodox "church Fathers" (our word for the ancient thinkers who helped frame our body of ideas), yes. in the opinion of others, no. i agree with the first group. Thank you for this, would they be influential fathers, or smaller ones? Mo Tzu posted:you don't see a dude breaking his girl's trust and throwing away their relationship with all the time and energy and emotion devoted to it in order to get some side strange evil No. I see it as wrong, and a poor moral choice that speaks ill of the person, but not an evil. Just because something has taken time and effort and you've shattered it probably means it wasn't built on mutual trust or affection, and should probably be ended anyway. If someone cheats then it is better to get out of that situation than remain in it with someone who clearly doesn't care about your feelings. I don't see how the lesson of "cheat all the time" would be passed down through that. It doe, but again those are bad things. Evil, to me at least, requires setting out to inflict pain on the world for slights and to do so with no care or compunction as to who is harmed in the process. Or to do stuff without care that directly harms someone. I can see that ending a relationship might do that, especially if via adultery, but if it is done not out of malice but out of idiocy or plain bad judgement? I dunno. syscall girl posted:I was kidding but making light of cheating is kind of childish. Thats fair enough, and it would be a grotesque betrayal of a persons trust and should, obviously, not be done. Mo Tzu posted:what do you call it when you're married for ten years, have a couple of kids together, and your husband has an affair that leads to the two of you getting an std. the damage that does to your family is pretty astronomical my man Firstly, person who cheated is an unmitigated arse. But it probably also means that neither side has been getting what they wanted out of the relationship for years and this is a good time to break things off. Amicably is probably not how it is going to go, to use an understatement. And if we are going hypothetical, say that a woman cheats on her spouse because she feels unappreciated, she divorces him and remarries, finding a greater degree of happiness with another person. Is that an evil? The Phlegmatist posted:two people boning It can be one thing and also more things! How about that! Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 22:36
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Josef bugman posted:Thank you for this, would they be influential fathers, or smaller ones? Gregory of Nyssa and Maximus the Confessor are about as influential as it's possible to be.
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Dec 12, 2016 22:45
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Bel_Canto posted:Gregory of Nyssa and Maximus the Confessor are about as influential as it's possible to be. Is it accepted dogma amongst any of the "big" orthodox congregations?
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Dec 12, 2016 22:48
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Josef bugman posted:Is it accepted dogma amongst any of the "big" orthodox congregations? uh
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Dec 12, 2016 22:51
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HEY GAL posted:uh Oh, sorry I must have gotten the terminology wrong, what did I say incorrectly? Or is it just that there is a lot of arguement?
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Dec 12, 2016 22:52
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Josef bugman posted:Oh, sorry I must have gotten the terminology wrong, what did I say incorrectly? Or is it just that there is a lot of arguement? the orthodox solution to disagreements about doctrine is "sit on it for 600 years and see if it pans out, and if not, give it another 300, then maybe try to have a council"
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Dec 12, 2016 22:56
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Josef bugman posted:Oh, sorry I must have gotten the terminology wrong, what did I say incorrectly? Or is it just that there is a lot of arguement?
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Dec 12, 2016 22:56
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Bel_Canto posted:the orthodox solution to disagreements about doctrine is "sit on it for 600 years and see if it pans out, and if not, give it another 300, then maybe try to have a council"
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Dec 12, 2016 22:57
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HEY GAL posted:and then russia gets in a big baby snit ugh don't remind me, i'm sure kirill is positively giddy at the thought of being able to play politics among the american orthodox churches again with such a russia-friendly government coming into power
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Dec 12, 2016 23:00
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HEY GAL posted:and then russia gets in a big baby snit To me its always sad that, from Rurik onwards, every single attempt to move towards something good in Russia just falls the gently caress apart like a wet cake.
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Dec 12, 2016 23:00
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Josef bugman posted:To me its always sad that, from Rurik onwards, every single attempt to move towards something good in Russia just falls the gently caress apart like a wet cake. the art's good
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Dec 12, 2016 23:02
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i don't know a dude going for side strange doesn't seem like the type of person who would care about how it would affect his wife and yeah if a man, woman, gay dude, lesbian, nonbinary person, bi/pan anything, etc etc person cheated on their long term partner, resulting in them giving their partner an std, it seems pretty evil. at least today, now that we know more about hiv and how it's spread. course with how lovely sex education is in america it is possible that some people still believe myths like "only gay people can get aids" so it might actually NOT be as preventable as i'd like to believe. i mean i know trans women are counted as "men who have sex with men" regardless of orientation in hiv/aids statistics so there's a bit of a blind spot in our community on how deeply it affects us. honestly we've gotten so far past the time of the plague's height, when it was killing entire communities of gay men and trans women that it's pretty easy for us kids today to not take it seriously.still i think we have a personal and moral obligation to try to avoid transmission, and if we do become infected to take every precaution to avoid passing it to our partners. that's not to say someone with aids needs to isolate themselves from the community, quite the opposite really, but it is important to take precautions and be aware of any risks being taken. having unprotected sex with random people without getting tested and having sex with your long term partner, with your long term partner unaware of the sexual risks you've taken part in, is pretty bad. but then having sex with random people and then having sex with your partner without your partner being aware of it is also really bad. it's sex under false circumstances at the very least, in my opinion. if you're unsatisfied with your relationship break up with the person. or at the very least talk with your partner about it. don't engage in risky sexual behaviour and then put them at risk without their consent. that's a dick move at the very least
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Dec 12, 2016 23:05
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breaking someone else's trust is absolutely a poo poo thing to do
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Dec 12, 2016 23:10
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HEY GAL posted:the art's good I should have added "in the political sphere". There was a lot of good art, music and writing. Mo Tzu posted:i don't know a dude going for side strange doesn't seem like the type of person who would care about how it would affect his wife They may very well do, but they probably do not see it that way. Possibly they just see it as "I regret this decision and will continue to regret it, but [justification]" I would agree entirely, I suppose I am assuming people would practice safe sex whilst cheating is perhaps overly optimistic of me. HEY GAL posted:breaking someone else's trust is absolutely a poo poo thing to do Would not deny that at all.
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Dec 12, 2016 23:15
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HEY GAL posted:the art's good I dunno. What art is Russia known for these days besides Pussy Riot and Little Big? No disrespect to the Eurovision guy, but he's not exactly Barishnikov.
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Dec 13, 2016 00:35
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twerking on the railroad posted:I dunno. What art is Russia known for these days besides Pussy Riot and Little Big? No disrespect to the Eurovision guy, but he's not exactly Barishnikov. Hey Gal, I think, was going from my "since the time of Rurik" comment.
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Dec 13, 2016 00:36
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Josef bugman posted:Firstly, person who cheated is an unmitigated arse. But it probably also means that neither side has been getting what they wanted out of the relationship for years and this is a good time to break things off. Amicably is probably not how it is going to go, to use an understatement. Whew, that casuistry. How about hypothetically neither one has been happy in the relationship for years, the woman cheats on the man because he is depressed and emotionally unavailable, but the man has let his depression go untreated for years which is causing their relationship to fail and the woman has been outright preventing the man from seeking treatment since it would shame her family, who have been devout Christian Scientists for three generations and they believe that mental illness is a moral failing and therapy is bunk? Who is in the wrong? The woman for cheating, the man for ruining the relationship by being emotionally unavailable, the woman for preventing him from seeking help, or the family who has influenced her by their upbringing? Maybe we can just go further and blame Adam and Eve. Jerkwads.
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Dec 13, 2016 01:18
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The Phlegmatist posted:Whew, that casuistry. Is it any more unsound than "you have an affair, get an STI and wreck your family". I'll take "all of the above" for three hundred. The degree of fault would be up to the individuals involved to decide (usually in their own favour) and to try to recover from. Still not an act of evil. From a purely personal perspective, I would probably blame the organisation of Christian Scientists more than the individuals. Why blame them, go a step higher and blame God. It's His universe with His rules and he could stop suffering at any point. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 01:29
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HEY GAL posted:in the opinion of several Orthodox "church Fathers" (our word for the ancient thinkers who helped frame our body of ideas), yes. in the opinion of others, no. i agree with the first group. In case anyone is interested in reading further on this (specifically re: Maximus the Confessor): http://www.academia.edu/1474147/Living_above_Gender_Insights_from_Saint_Maximus_the_Confessor
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Dec 13, 2016 02:05
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Josef bugman posted:Is it any more unsound than "you have an affair, get an STI and wreck your family". Remember that "stop suffering" might entail "stop free will" - if I hit you in the face, it's going to hurt your face, unless God prevents me from hitting you; or God could prevent my hand making contact with your face from causing pain, but then that interferes with causes having their normal effect. Also, what, for you, is evil? I mean, normally I think of the evil/bad distinction being "if I do something that is wrong, knowing that it is wrong, without being coerced into it" is evil (if, perhaps, a tiny evil if it's something like "having one drink more than I should because what I'm drinking tastes good" rather than, say, "shooting nine people at a Bible study"), whereas bad being things like "spending all weekend staggering between toilet and bed because of food poisoning" or "a friend of mine can't get pregnant despite trying for three years".
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Dec 13, 2016 02:21
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The Phlegmatist posted:Whew, that casuistry. This is where honesty plays a key role. And where certain churches encourage people to sit on it and spin.
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Dec 13, 2016 02:37
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Josef bugman posted:The degree of fault would be up to the individuals involved to decide (usually in their own favour) and to try to recover from. You're on to something here. The human mind is incredibly good at rationalizing its own actions. The alcoholic who slowly kills himself while promising he'll quit after just this last time. The philanderer who sleeps around because his wife's a bitch and she's too busy with the kids. The skinhead that curbstomps an Indian immigrant because he's not actually human. Are they to judge themselves morally correct? "For there is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so?"
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Dec 13, 2016 02:46
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