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Nice emptyquote necro you heathen
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Jul 18, 2016 16:24
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waitwhatno posted:Research chemicals are just fascinating to me. It's crazy how reckless people are with these drugs and how helpless governments are in fighting them. It seems like as soon as some drug is found to be semi-somewhat-safe it goes mainstream and idiots start dropping like flies because they don't know how to use it or don't care. This is probably only going to become worse and worse, with better understanding of biochemistry and rational drug design. the world is just moving way too fast for anyone to keep up. The ease with which you can now reach out and touch global markets is unprecedented, and appears to be making enforcement of existing laws very difficult, let alone catching up with AM-whatever or 2CB-FLY. Cabbages and VHS fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jul 19, 2016 |
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Jul 18, 2016 21:04
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I guess at least the opiate ODs are yielding a lot of organs. Still way too many old sick people for them to go around, though. http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/10/14/497799446/organ-donations-spike-in-the-wake-of-the-opioid-epidemic
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Oct 19, 2016 04:05
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Subvisual Haze posted:Gabapentin I'm prescribed a pretty high dose of Gabapentin, and I'm not sure how anyone could use it recreationally like that. It does have a noticeable potentially recreational effect the first couple times you take it (sorta like some strange mix between xanax and marijuana, but far weaker and only really affects your body), but it stops doing that after the first one or two doses and higher doses don't really have any additional effect past a point, so I don't see how it could be used regularly in that manner.
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Oct 19, 2016 18:05
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I know quite a few people are pissed that the CDC recommended that opioids not be prescribed for chronic pain. I know I feel kind of bad for doctors who must feel like they are trapped between a rock and a hard place.
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Oct 19, 2016 18:51
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Ytlaya posted:I'm prescribed a pretty high dose of Gabapentin, and I'm not sure how anyone could use it recreationally like that. It does have a noticeable potentially recreational effect the first couple times you take it (sorta like some strange mix between xanax and marijuana, but far weaker and only really affects your body), but it stops doing that after the first one or two doses and higher doses don't really have any additional effect past a point, so I don't see how it could be used regularly in that manner. I've taken Lyrica and Gabapentin, related drugs. Lyrica got me high as a kite. I can't say I'm experienced with drugs, but I've taken opioids (low dose) after surgery and they didn't really get me high. With Lyrica it was ridiculous. I remember thinking that if the drug addicts hear about this stuff they will throw away their syringes because I felt like I was the happiest person alive (but it also made my lips and throat swell up like crazy so not touching that stuff again.) Gabapentin made me want to do nothing but lie on the sofa for 2 hours, feeling like my brain didn't belong to my body. I can see how this would appeal to addicts, but it didn't appeal to me, it was horrible. You say that it doesn't do this after taking it a couple of times? I might try it again.
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Oct 19, 2016 19:48
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Lyrica and neurontin are worthless in the junky community. You can't give that poo poo away, and they certainly never did anything for me... pangstrom posted:I guess at least the opiate ODs are yielding a lot of organs. Still way too many old sick people for them to go around, though. Silver linings!
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Oct 19, 2016 21:23
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Ytlaya posted:I'm prescribed a pretty high dose of Gabapentin, and I'm not sure how anyone could use it recreationally like that. It does have a noticeable potentially recreational effect the first couple times you take it (sorta like some strange mix between xanax and marijuana, but far weaker and only really affects your body), but it stops doing that after the first one or two doses and higher doses don't really have any additional effect past a point, so I don't see how it could be used regularly in that manner.
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Oct 19, 2016 22:14
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The_Book_Of_Harry posted:Lyrica and neurontin are worthless in the junky community. oh come on harry they are not, if loperamide is worth something then gabapentin has to be
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Oct 19, 2016 22:36
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It's big in Northern Ireland for some reason. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37574709
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Oct 19, 2016 22:38
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big cock Salaryman posted:oh come on harry they are not, if loperamide is worth something then gabapentin has to be For real... Pain clinic (in my area anyhow) would distribute hundreds of gabapentin tabs along with piles of Roxies/oxymorphone...and god knows we bought a lot of scripts...and we had to buy the loving neurontin, too, else the Rx wouldn't fill for us. Serious pain in the rear end
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Oct 19, 2016 23:41
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Note: I did know a child in highschool who took neurontin til it gave him seizures Maybe those outliers are why folks think it has a value. E:he switched to rock and is Guavanaut posted:It's big in Northern Ireland for some reason. Yeah..."big" and "killed a couple idiot children" are not synonymous Note the "freely available" quotation in your article. The_Book_Of_Harry fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Oct 19, 2016 |
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Oct 19, 2016 23:43
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blackguy32 posted:I know quite a few people are pissed that the CDC recommended that opioids not be prescribed for chronic pain. I know I feel kind of bad for doctors who must feel like they are trapped between a rock and a hard place. I agree, there needs to be a massive increase in funding for opioid addiction treatment, paid for by the drug companies that caused this issue in the first place. How rare is it for someone with chronic pain to be put on a dose of opioids, and maintain that dose long term without developing tolerance or addiction?
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Oct 20, 2016 01:04
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Konstantin posted:I agree, there needs to be a massive increase in funding for opioid addiction treatment, paid for by the drug companies that caused this issue in the first place. How rare is it for someone with chronic pain to be put on a dose of opioids, and maintain that dose long term without developing tolerance or addiction? Taking long term opioids without developing tolerance or physiological addiction? Literally impossible. Of course there will be some people who find a dose that seems to work for them and stick with it, but the evidence that it's actually any better than placebo after a few weeks/months of taking the same dose is scant at best.
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Oct 20, 2016 01:45
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jabby posted:Taking long term opioids without developing tolerance or physiological addiction? Literally impossible. Anecdotal, but: I take 70mg/methadone daily, and have been addicted to large quantities of opioids for a decade+) and I'd argue that I receive little to no analgesic effect at this point. Unless I'm horribly, horribly afflicted...but there is no reason for a person in my condition to experience any real pain.
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Oct 20, 2016 03:48
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Research chemicals are just fascinating to me. It's crazy how reckless people are with these drugs and how helpless governments are in fighting them. It seems like as soon as some drug is found to be semi-somewhat-safe it goes mainstream and idiots start dropping like flies because they don't know how to use it or don't care. This is probably only going to become worse and worse, with better understanding of biochemistry and rational drug design. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
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Oct 20, 2016 17:01
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Heroin deaths surpass gun homicides for the first time.
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Dec 10, 2016 01:52
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gently caress you Charlie Baker.
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Dec 10, 2016 03:01
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research chemicals are the poo poo and we live in a golden age
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Dec 10, 2016 10:04
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At least in my health care system the corner has certainly been turned on prescribing trends. I've barely seen any patients have their doses escalated the last couple months, plenty of efforts to step patients down on doses though with mixed results. I'm sure it won't be pleasant for anyone involved, but it seems a pretty necessary first step in slowing down this opioid epidemic. At the very least we need to stop putting new patients on high chronic doses in the first place to slow this monster down. Dealing with the huge segment of the population that is already addicted will be a whole different matter entirely though. drat if the culture hasn't changed completely though. My health system is run by doctors (which is a step up from a board of investors, but it does lead to weird employee culture differences between doctors and "staff"), and in the past the unofficial word for pharmacy had always been "do what the doctor tells you". We had a policy for what to do if we thought a patient was showing signs of substance abuse or we thought a prescription was dangerous, but it was little more than "get your concerns in writing, then do what the doctor tells you". I'd sent off a few emails over the years to prescribers with concerns about certain patients, but they usually went nowhere. Just this last month though I sent the standard email to a doctor saying basically "Hey this patient has said he's run out of his opioid a week early for the last 3 months now, I think you should really have a heart-to-heart talk to this patient about boundaries and options etc." A couple hours later I got an email back directly from the provider telling me to not dispense any more narcotics to the patient and that they were meeting with him tomorrow to schedule a rapid dose taper off the medication. That wasn't what I was expecting at all, and not even what I would have necessarily recommended. Seems like the change in opioid prescribing habits has hit the ground hard here. Not everywhere though. There's still a couple rural clinics in my area whose providers are still increasing their patient's oxycodone doses left and right, but they're very much the exception at the moment.
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Dec 10, 2016 20:28
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kratom's illegalization has been postponed for a few months but it's still in a legally precarious position. to clamp down on it like one would with other opioids would be a terrible idea, it has no recreational potential for addicts, it only keeps withdrawal symptoms at bay. it is an incredibly valuable tool and to ban it will only make staying sober harder for addicts using it to maintain or treat cravings. meanwhile u-47700 has been federally scheduled but new ones are already cropping up, u-49900 has appeared and user reports indicate very little if any opioid activity and possibly causes neurological damage. new legal fentanyl analogs like methoxyacetylfentanyl and tetrahydrofuranylfentanyl are still lethal, less euphoric, and last for only an hour or two before leaving the user in withdrawal. buy 'em on the clearnet in premade nasal spray bottles. carfentanil can still be had for less than $3000 per kilogram and can kill someone who is just in the same room as an open bag of it. people around me believe that suboxone is "just government drug dealing," and that people should only get one narcan revival before being left to die because "it wastes my tax dollars." the situation will probably continue to deteriorate for some time while politicians stick their fingers in their ears or act out of fear of being seen as "soft on crime." merry christmas sea of losers fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 11:34
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Meanwhile nobody wants to address why addiction happens in the first place. As more and more people become disenfranchised and have zero prospects in life addiction will go up. As the social safety net withers addiction will go up. If the gop starts a new pointless war that produces broken vets addiction will go up.
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Dec 12, 2016 20:04
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big cock Salaryman posted:kratom... has no recreational potential for addicts what about certain products being sold as "Kratom" or tinctures thereof, do they have recreational potential?  edit: Dethkon is that you up there piggy piggy? Long time man.
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Dec 13, 2016 04:21
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Thankfully, heroin is still available, clean and inexpensive! God bless the Afghan invasion! e: $3/g for fentanyl analogs...it's amazing only a couple thousand people died (in the US) from them this past year. gently caress me running The_Book_Of_Harry fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 05:01
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Tim Raines IRL posted:what about certain products being sold as "Kratom" or tinctures thereof, do they have recreational potential? Kratom is absolutely addictive and absolutely has opioid effects. Like, suboxone will throw you into precipitated withdrawals if you are dependent on kratom, there is no debate to really be had on this subject. It really annoys me to see people spreading the myth that kratom magically eases withdrawal symptoms without being an opioid itself (newsflash - it eases withdrawal symptoms because it's an opioid!). Even NPR reported this nonsense the other day. Part of the misconception stems from people buying lovely kratom (if it's kratom at all) from headshops and the like and noticing it has no effects (or taking very low doses - a LOT of kratom is required to have much of an effect, more than you'd usually use to make tea). There's also a perception that an herb like kratom must be more healthy because it's a natural and a plant or something silly like that. That being said, I don't really have a problem with the plant itself being legal, because there's a limit to just how addicted you can get to it (there's a peak beyond which you just feel sick, so it never really reaches the point where withdrawals are impossible to deal with), but the extracts are extremely dangerous and no different than any other strong opioid (the most common strong one can easily punch through 8+mg of suboxone). I'm not sure if there's a way to make the extracts illegal while leaving the plant itself legal, though. The plant can be useful for tapering off of stronger opioids, as long as you use it as a tool for tapering and realize that staying on it is just substituting one addiction for another. I think the plant itself is only really dangerous for people with a propensity towards opioid addiction - it takes a very long time to become dependent on, partly because it tastes really nasty which creates a barrier to frequent and heavy use. I think I used the plant for ~6 months before becoming dependent to the point that I experienced noticeable withdrawals (and at some point after that moved on to the extracts, though I forget when exactly). One thing I'm curious about is the percent of addicts who are unwilling or unable to seek out opiates illegally. I imagine the percent is pretty small, but speaking from my own experience I probably would have never become addicted if I didn't have access to legal opioids like kratom and poppy pod tea (no idea if these are still legal, I used them years ago). I don't know a single other addict in my personal life and don't remotely fit the image of what most people consider addicts to be like (though from my experience this is true of more addicts than most people would think).
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Dec 13, 2016 10:37
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Ytlaya posted:One thing I'm curious about is the percent of addicts who are unwilling or unable to seek out opiates illegally. I imagine the percent is pretty small, but speaking from my own experience I probably would have never become addicted if I didn't have access to legal opioids like kratom and poppy pod tea (no idea if these are still legal, I used them years ago). I don't know a single other addict in my personal life and don't remotely fit the image of what most people consider addicts to be like (though from my experience this is true of more addicts than most people would think). I'm guessing a huge percentage, at least to start, which is why the overprescription of pain pills precipitated such an explosion in opioid addiction rates. Now, are there lots of people who will avoid seeking illegal or semi-legal opioids once the addiction has taken hold? I'm guessing a lot fewer.
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Dec 13, 2016 16:20
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Subvisual Haze posted:At least in my health care system the corner has certainly been turned on prescribing trends. I've barely seen any patients have their doses escalated the last couple months, plenty of efforts to step patients down on doses though with mixed results. I'm sure it won't be pleasant for anyone involved, but it seems a pretty necessary first step in slowing down this opioid epidemic. At the very least we need to stop putting new patients on high chronic doses in the first place to slow this monster down. Dealing with the huge segment of the population that is already addicted will be a whole different matter entirely though. This definitely seems like a step in the right direction. If you don't mind me asking, which region of the country are you in? Have any other health care goons noticed similar shifts in their communities?
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Dec 14, 2016 21:16
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doesnt really seem like that to me...
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Dec 14, 2016 21:27
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It has been the way things were going in general since 2011 (when the Florida pill mills got shut down, when the first doctors started getting prosecuted etc.). Basically that's when the price for oxy etc. started to go up, heroin-related deaths started to go up, etc. A lot of doctors knew what was up over decade earlier, but my sense was that 2014-ish was when the bulk of even out-of-it doctors had come around. A few are still behind the curve, of course.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:50
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PT6A posted:Now, are there lots of people who will avoid seeking illegal or semi-legal opioids once the addiction has taken hold? I'm guessing a lot fewer. Yeah, this is what I was referring to - people who wouldn't ever seek out illegal opioids. I bring this up mainly because people getting a taste for opiates from prescription painkillers is something that will always happen - you can reduce how often it happens, but doctors aren't going to stop prescribing opiate painkillers anytime soon. An important question, I think, is what percent of these people would seek out illegal opiates if/when their doctor/pharmacist discontinues their prescription. I mention my personal circumstances because I'm probably a member of that subset who would never have become seriously addicted if legal/semi-legal opioids weren't available (though this might be different if I knew a source for illicit opiates; I'm just not willing to go through the effort of seeking them out) Partly for this reason, it concerns me to see doctors potentially reacting to this crisis by going to the other extreme and suddenly forcing people into quick tapers (if they taper them at all). Tapers are more successful when done very slowly, and I'm worried that doctors (who are generally profoundly ignorant about addiction) are going to end up driving a bunch of people towards illegal opiates by giving them unrealistic taper schedules.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:01
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Yeah, a lot don't know addiction (e.g., Dr. Drew says a lot of doctors get super pissed when they find out their patients lied to them, while people with experience are like "yeah no poo poo, that's what addicts do, don't take it personally") and also the quick taper probably leaves a doctor with the least legal liability. It's not always really clear what they SHOULD do, to be honest, if the patient doesn't have a lot of money (in which case hey go to rehab). It's not like most people can pull of a gradual taper on their own, either. The lowest hanging fruit is not getting a lot of new addicts out of people just having outpatient procedures etc.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:09
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pangstrom posted:It's not like most people can pull of a gradual taper on their own, either. Oh, for sure. But I think that it should at least be the first thing attempted. After that you can consider other options (though they're unlikely to be effective if the patient isn't willing/able to do a slow taper), or move to something like suboxone maintenance, though that should be a last resort. One other thing I often notice doctors (and even sometimes psychologists/psychiatrists who specialize in addiction) are ignorant about is the issue of PAWS (or the knowledge that it isn't merely a psychological issue). This leads to approaches that center on discontinuation and getting past acute withdrawal, but such an approach is usually doomed to failure if the addiction was bad enough to result in severe PAWS symptoms for months (if not years) afterwards.
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Dec 14, 2016 23:28
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The full breakdown of 2015 deaths from the CDC has been released:
OhFunny fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Dec 18, 2016 |
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Dec 18, 2016 05:55
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Glad to see this thread hasn't completely nodded off yet.  Anyways, so what's the deal with carfentanyl? Isn't it said to be some kind of elephant tranquilizer? And didn't we already go through the horrors of fentanyl, why are we ramping it up to 11 with carfentanyl?  I've read some terrifying anecdotes about carfentanyl almost killing people just by being in the room and breathing the air around open carfentanyl. This sounds like a step below anthrax, why would anyone even consider touching the stuff? 
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Dec 18, 2016 12:36
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If your elephant has a tooth infection. Other than that, I have no idea. You need less of it to make a point of street 'heroin' but surely that's outweighed by the insane handling and manufacturing conditions to not die.
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Dec 18, 2016 12:46
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That (along with a similar compound) is the stuff the Russians pumped into the theater to resolve a hostage situation in 2002 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis not a terrible idea if they had given everyone naloxone afterwards but they didn't so lots of people died
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Dec 18, 2016 12:56
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OhFunny posted:The full breakdown of 2015 deaths from the CDC has been released: The analysis I want to see is a rough forecast, based on extant addiction and current levels of people maintaining, dying, or stopping using, how big the rest of this iceberg is going forward.
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Dec 18, 2016 13:03
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pangstrom posted:That (along with a similar compound) is the stuff the Russians pumped into the theater to resolve a hostage situation in 2002 Wait, what??? I thought they used a sleeping gas, not loving carfentanyl.
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Dec 18, 2016 18:03
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Teriyaki Koinku posted:Glad to see this thread hasn't completely nodded off yet. It's piss easy to smuggle. One kilogram is millions of doses and millions in profit.
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Dec 18, 2016 20:02
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pangstrom posted:That (along with a similar compound) is the stuff the Russians pumped into the theater to resolve a hostage situation in 2002
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Dec 18, 2016 20:10
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