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daydrinking is fun posted:So you weren't freaked out by a guy who sang songs about bombing Iran as a joke or the dude who called himself 'Severely' conservative, but this orange racist is what's got you really scared? Well no Hillary supporter would think ill of bombing Iran.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:27
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zegermans posted:Yet True Believer conservatives don't have this issue, which is why we lose. They're willing to hold their nose when they don't get their way, instead of running for the fire escape and then barring the exit. They sure do. Now, back to what we were talking about; you need to reach out to the left or they won't vote for you.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:28
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daydrinking is fun posted:They sure do. Now, back to what we were talking about; you need to reach out to the left or they won't vote for you. What reaching out is required? It seems the only option to get the left back this year was to declare Black primary voters worth 3/5ths and readjust the primary so that St. Bernard was victorious.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:29
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Doctor Butts posted:They'll all last about a month longer than your average New Year's Gym Membership once they realize that they have to work with other people to get poo poo accomplished who have different ideas. People Clinton supporters have written off in the past 72 hours itt: - Black/Hispanic men - white People - poor conservatives - the entire millenial generation
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Dec 13, 2016 18:30
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Like at this point the two choices are run candidates and platforms people actually might like or to hope that enough people do the game theory math and figure out that while their life might not get better under a Democratic president it won't get as bad as under a Republican despite the media (and frankly the Democrats) not messaging on this topic.Business Gorillas posted:People Clinton supporters have written off in the past 72 hours itt: Look those suburban moderates are REALLY coming out for them in 2018 you'll see. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 18:30
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BarbarianElephant posted:I'm not going to go into more detail because I don't want to go into detail about my life on the internet (doxxing exists) but this makes me really mad and I wish I could go volunteer but I REALLY CAN'T. so then why did you feel the need to talk down to me barbarianelephant? why did you feel the need to tell others in this thread to do something you cannot do? do you think it's any easier for millenials to get out and volunteer when they have classes, jobs, and more they have to deal with? i'm really mad because i'm trying my damndest to turn a state that's been blood red for 30 years into a blue or at least purple state, and you have the temerity to tut me from the shelter of your blue-state paradise you contribute little more than your vote to.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:31
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zegermans posted:What reaching out is required? It seems the only option to get the left back this year was to declare Black primary voters worth 3/5ths and readjust the primary so that St. Bernard was victorious. :clap emoji: :clap emoji: :thumbs up emoji:
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Dec 13, 2016 18:31
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I'm struggling to remember the reaching out Obama did in his first Presidential election. All I remember is very good rhetoric and speeches- plus the amazing GOTV.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:32
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Business Gorillas posted:People Clinton supporters have written off in the past 72 hours itt: Assuming by "writing off" you mean "examining why they weren't enthusiastic Democratic voters" then yes, completely right. What exactly would make you happy? What are your politics? You always criticise everyone else but what would be your ideal candidate? Please do not describe the candidate in terms of what you hate about Hillary, but what do you actually WANT.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:32
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA9KC8SMu3o
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Dec 13, 2016 18:33
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Condiv posted:so then why did you feel the need to talk down to me barbarianelephant? why did you feel the need to tell others in this thread to do something you cannot do? do you think it's any easier for millenials to get out and volunteer when they have classes, jobs, and more they have to deal with? i'm really mad because i'm trying my damndest to turn a state that's been blood red for 30 years into a blue or at least purple state, and you have the temerity to tut me from the shelter of your blue-state paradise you contribute little more than your vote to. You have no idea what's going on in someone else's life. Please assume that when people say they struggle, they mean it. I don't want to play misery poker with you.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:34
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Business Gorillas posted:People Clinton supporters have written off in the past 72 hours itt: Bolded never happened, stop making up lies. I doubt the other three happened either, given the way you just make poo poo up constantly itt.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:36
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zegermans posted:Yet True Believer conservatives don't have this issue, which is why we lose. They're willing to hold their nose when they don't get their way, instead of running for the fire escape and then barring the exit.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:37
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Nevvy Z posted:Bolded never happened, stop making up lies. I doubt the other three happened either, given the way you just make poo poo up constantly itt. people were saying black men didnt come out for hillary enough cuz sexism.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:38
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I live in Virginia, a state she almost lost and was supposed to be safe, and the commercials I saw didn't even really explain why Trump would be so bad. It was mostly about how he was a total rear end in a top hat personally. If the Democrats can't even effectively message on why the other party will negatively affect their lives then why should they expect people to vote for them entirely out of fear from the other side?
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Dec 13, 2016 18:39
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Fiction posted:people were saying black men didnt come out for hillary enough cuz sexism. It could be part of the reason Hillary did worse with black men then with black women. I suspect it's more to do with the "manly jobs" factor of Trump's campaign personally, but either way BG aggressively and deliberately misportrays the arguments people have been making.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:40
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BarbarianElephant posted:You have no idea what's going on in someone else's life. Please assume that when people say they struggle, they mean it. I don't want to play misery poker with you. i'm not playing misery poker with you. i'm literally asking why you feel you have the right to condescend to people and tell them to do things you cannot. you don't know anyone else's situation in this thread but you were more than happy to tell them to get off their asses and volunteer. why?
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Dec 13, 2016 18:41
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Condiv posted:i'm not playing misery poker with you. i'm literally asking why you feel you have the right to condescend to people and tell them to do things you cannot. you don't know anyone else's situation in this thread but you were more than happy to tell them to get off their asses and volunteer. why? Because you were frustrated at the Democratic party not being what you want, and seeming to expect them to read your mind and change to what you want them to be. I wanted to encourage you to do what you seemed to want to do - volunteer. I didn't realize you were an emigrant because you didn't say at first, otherwise I would have said something different. So apologies for that.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:45
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Considering the difference in ideology between Hillary and leftists, the equivalent of voting for her as a leftist is conservatives voting for a Republican who gets paid by LGBT organizations and Iran to hold speeches for abortion doctors, where he tells them he thinks abortion doctors should be the ones making abortion laws. His husband would of course be a former president that had signed a major crime bill that decriminalized drugs and instituted a great drug rehabilitation program. Small government religious conservatives voted for an areligious philander who ran on a platform of tariffs and being best buds with Russia, so... in spite of your amazing strawmanning of Clinton's positions, you're kinda right. They did vote for that type of person.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:46
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BarbarianElephant posted:Because you were frustrated at the Democratic party not being what you want, and seeming to expect them to read your mind and change to what you want them to be. I wanted to encourage you to do what you seemed to want to do - volunteer. I didn't realize you were an emigrant because you didn't say at first, otherwise I would have said something different. So apologies for that. there are lots of people frustrated with the dems right now. only a small fraction will be able to give anything but their vote to the party. they should still have a voice regardless of that, just like you should have a say in the dem party despite not being able to volunteer.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:51
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Radish posted:The fact that the Democrats had no one other than Hillary Clinton to effectively run for President after eight years of Obama is a pretty damning example of their incompetence as politicians. You can't really blame anyone for her being so powerful, look at her resume: First Lady, Senator of an important state, Secretary of State.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:56
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zegermans posted:Small government religious conservatives voted for an areligious philander who ran on a platform of tariffs and being best buds with Russia... They did vote for that type of person. Leftists could not at all expect Hillary to push any of their planks hard. zegermans posted:in spite of your amazing strawmanning of Clinton's positions, you're kinda right.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:56
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Condiv posted:there are lots of people frustrated with the dems right now. only a small fraction will be able to give anything but their vote to the party. they should still have a voice regardless of that, just like you should have say in the dem party despite not being able to volunteer. I was talking to you in particular, because you seemed to be hankering to become more involved, but somehow waiting for permission. Local political parties aren't generally all that organized. If they don't call you back, it's because they don't have the manpower, not because they spit on your efforts/demographic. However, since you are overseas, I can imagine they didn't quite know how to make use of you. You say your state is very red, so the local Democrats are probably three old ladies and a cat. They might know they want a new website but not understand technology at all and not know what to ask. Be understanding of this - local Democrats in a red state are few and powerless.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:57
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theflyingorc posted:gee, I wonder why nobody does math on eligible voters, ever? maybe because that's a dumb way to look at it??? I just wanted to mention that this logic is obviously really wrong. Yeah, older people are dying, but people who were previously younger are also older now themselves. You seem to be making the assumption that old people get older but young people are immortal and never age or something. To make the point you're trying to make, you'd need evidence showing that younger people in 2016 were a greater portion of the voting eligible population than in 2012.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:58
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Ytlaya posted:I just wanted to mention that this logic is obviously really wrong. Yeah, older people are dying, but people who were previously younger are also older now themselves. You seem to be making the assumption that old people get older but young people are immortal and never age or something. To make the point you're trying to make, you'd need evidence showing that younger people in 2016 were a greater portion of the voting eligible population than in 2012. Yeah, thanks for explaining that, the logic didn't make sense to me either. I think in a lot of ways we are LOSING by the oldest people dying off. The moment we lost the generation that remembered the Nazis, what do we get? A massive right-wing swing over the entire West.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:00
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Ytlaya posted:I just wanted to mention that this logic is obviously really wrong. Yeah, older people are dying, but people who were previously younger are also older now themselves. You seem to be making the assumption that old people get older but young people are immortal and never age or something. To make the point you're trying to make, you'd need evidence showing that younger people in 2016 were a greater portion of the voting eligible population than in 2012. I'd have to dig into it to get exact numbers, but birth rates aren't steady over time. They're called the baby boom for a reason - the birth rate at the time was a huge explosion, and it's been dropping ever since.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:09
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theflyingorc posted:I'd have to dig into it to get exact numbers, but birth rates aren't steady over time. They're called the baby boom for a reason - the birth rate at the time was a huge explosion, and it's been dropping ever since. Also IIRC, population gains have been mostly from minorities and they tend to get disenfranchised.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:24
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MizPiz posted:Yeah what a bunch of idiots complaining about jobs being lost and feeling like politicians don't care about them. That isn't why they are idiots. They are idiots because they voted for Trump as a remedy to those issues.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:25
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Shageletic posted:We won't know about the percentage of millenials of the eligible population voted until we get Census results, but we already got some clues. Thanks for this. It's hilarious how he keeps moving goal posts. "No! Trump got WAYMORE eligible voters turnout for him than Romney!" *Shows proof that he didn't * "LOL eligible voters don't mean poo poo!" What will it take for these people to accept that Clinton was a crummy candidate? punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 19:29
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Radish posted:The fact that the Democrats had no one other than Hillary Clinton to effectively run for President after eight years of Obama is a pretty damning example of their incompetence as politicians. This is just not true. They had a bunch of people who could've run and won. They just didn't because the party completely coalesced around Clinton in 2014.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:30
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I do think Trump had a big strategic advantage in that he had absolutely no record whatsoever, repeatedly changed his positions so even his statements couldn't pin him down, and was consistent on the few things his base liked (wall, trade). Hard to run attack ads against that that aren't character assassination. I mean look how well Ross Perot did in 1992, and that was in an environment that was significantly less jaded/filled with white panic.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:34
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mcmagic posted:This is just not true. They had a bunch of people who could've run and won. They just didn't because the party completely coalesced around Clinton in 2014. I mean that's always the argument. When people point out Clinton was a bad candidate they say that "well who else was there?" which means either they got out of the way or didn't do anything to get another person ready for a meaningful primary competition. Either way means they were incompetent or incredibly arrogant about the country falling in line to vote for Clinton. porfiria posted:I do think Trump had a big strategic advantage in that he had absolutely no record whatsoever, repeatedly changed his positions so even his statements couldn't pin him down, and was consistent on the few things his base liked (wall, trade). Hard to run attack ads against that that aren't character assassination. Yeah it felt like Hillary spent years grooming her resume to be the best candidate ever when it turns out that having a long history of political decisions often bites you in the rear end. I think Obama has just enough experience that you'd want so finding someone shouldn't require a thirty year long career. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 19:36
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I'm pretty sure Joe Biden would have won. Hillary lost because she's really not a charismatic or inspiring person. She's a poor public speaker. She comes off as very calculated, which plays badly into her baggage. And this at a time when there was a strong anti-establishment sentiment in the country. I mean, she's the wife of a loving former president. That's not as bad as a brother-of-a-son-of but it's pretty bad. It really does go to show how the establishment can select for qualities which might be real (she's very charming in person/she's smart/she's a good administrator) but aren't very relevant for winning elections.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:41
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Radish posted:I mean that's always the argument. When people point out Clinton was a bad candidate they say that "well who else was there?" which means either they got out of the way or didn't do anything to get another person ready for a meaningful primary competition. Either way means they were incompetent or incredibly arrogant about the country falling in line to vote for Clinton. Pretty much that. Also relying too much on Clinton running up the primary score in states democrats had no chance of winning in the general and doing horribly in the states that ended up costing her the election.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:44
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I had thought that after 2008 she had learned her lesson on valuing loyalty over competency in her subordinates but reading all the takes on her campaign the night after and she did exactly the same thing as before.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:46
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theflyingorc posted:I'd have to dig into it to get exact numbers, but birth rates aren't steady over time. They're called the baby boom for a reason - the birth rate at the time was a huge explosion, and it's been dropping ever since. Yeah, I'm not saying that your conclusion is necessarily wrong, just that your reasoning doesn't support it. Maybe it's true that younger people are a greater proportion of the eligible voting population than they were 4/8 years ago (the data on this probably exists but I'm too lazy to look it up right now), but the fact that time is passing and old people are dying doesn't mean this is the case (since some people who were in, for example, the 18-35 age bracket have now moved out of that bracket as well). zegermans posted:Yet True Believer conservatives don't have this issue, which is why we lose. They're willing to hold their nose when they don't get their way, instead of running for the fire escape and then barring the exit. It's kind of disgusting that you frame people not liking and agreeing with a political candidate as "not getting their way" and "taking their ball and going home." I mean, I agree that voting for Clinton in the general election was absolutely the right thing to do and that not voting was the wrong decision, but I can still understand why someone might make that decision (or not be motivated enough to have to miss work to vote if they live in a state without early voting, etc). I'm probably a more reliable voter than the average American, and even I had a feeling of "eh gotta do what I gotta do" when I went to vote. I had some very cautious optimism about how Clinton's presidency might turn out (due to the post-Sanders additions to her platform), but I was mostly voting to avoid Trump. I think it's wrong to blame people too much for not being strongly inclined to vote for a candidate who they feel isn't offering them much, even if the candidate is necessary to help other disadvantaged groups. In some hypothetical situation where I lived in dire poverty and the two candidates were a bigot who would help me and a non-bigot who wouldn't, I would probably either choose the former or not vote at all because, ultimately, I care more about myself than other people (I know this example doesn't remotely reflect this election - it's just to illustrate a point). I am willing to care for other people only when my own needs are met, and I think this is true for most people, even if they aren't willing to admit it. You shouldn't expect people to be saints who are willing to suffer just because other people are suffering even worse, especially when the option to help both groups exists. And it comes off as especially condescending and insulting when the people telling you that your issues aren't as important are pretty well-off themselves. Ultimately it is the politician's responsibility to have a platform and message that convinces people they will improve their lives. (One thing I want to add is that I realize most Trump voters were not poor and/or working class. I agree that middle/upper class Trump voters are generally really dumb and/or bigoted. But those people don't really matter, since they tend to vote Republican regardless of the candidate. Converting the poorer voters who either switched from Obama to Trump or didn't vote at all would be sufficient to win the election, so I think those people are all that really matter.)
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Dec 13, 2016 19:46
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mcmagic posted:Pretty much that. Also relying too much on Clinton running up the primary score in states democrats had no chance of winning in the general and doing horribly in the states that ended up costing her the election. Clinton did well in swing states in the primary.
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Dec 13, 2016 20:04
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mcmagic posted:Pretty much that. Also relying too much on Clinton running up the primary score in states democrats had no chance of winning in the general and doing horribly in the states that ended up costing her the election. It's pretty annoying how those black people that liked her don't live in the correct states but were allowed to vote regardless and derail St. Bernard.
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Dec 13, 2016 20:14
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Condiv posted:i'm really mad because i'm trying my damndest to turn a state that's been blood red for 30 years into a blue or at least purple state, and you have the temerity to tut me from the shelter of your blue-state paradise you contribute little more than your vote to. I believe that was Hillary's strategy all along. Have you considered lobbying the French government to import more American coal? I gather there are some more important constituencies there.
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Dec 13, 2016 20:16
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coathat posted:Well no Hillary supporter would think ill of bombing Iran. I would think ill of bombing Iran. Just putting that out there.
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Dec 13, 2016 20:16
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