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Josef bugman posted:Is that because they are the villains in Deus Ex? Despite his fondness for quoting Aquinas, Bob Page is really more into transhumanism. Though, come to think of it, I guess there's nothing preventing someone from becoming a Christian transhumanist.
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Dec 13, 2016 17:07
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Josef bugman posted:Is that because they are the villains in Deus Ex? in that the people who advocate for a rigorist understanding of natural law are the men in black? *in a very robotic voice* nothing to see here. Bel_Canto posted:aquinas is cool and good, natural law has some interesting things in it as well, but modern natural law theologians are, for the most part, intellectual charlatans in bed with the Protestant right wing. one of the notable exceptions is Germain Grisez, who's intellectually honest and rigorous even though i disagree profoundly with most of his conclusions and find many of them abhorrent. basically just avoid the neo-scholastics in general and hit up the primary sources instead, which in any case are much weirder and more interesting than anything the 20th and 21st centuries have to say about them I'll have to read Grisez, thanks. I really enjoy when Protestants appeal to Natural Law (which doesn't jive with sola scriptura) when they're just making GBS threads all over LGBT stuff. Or when Catholics apply the tripartite distinction of the Law to the Old Testament (advanced by noted Catholic theologian John fuckin' Calvin.) Welcome to the world of Christendom, where the theology don't matter as long as nobody sticks it in a butt.
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Dec 13, 2016 17:27
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The Phlegmatist posted:Welcome to the world of Christendom, where the theology don't matter as long as nobody sticks it in a butt. I am trying to thing of a way to introduce the Whose Line opening phrase into this without being a dick and I just can't.
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Dec 13, 2016 17:32
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Josef bugman posted:All people are liars. The degree is the part that has changed. It is bad, I'd agree on that. You have just trivialized the word "liar". It's almost like saying there's no such thing as short people because everyone has "height"
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Dec 13, 2016 18:01
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my dad posted:You have just trivialized the word "liar". It's almost like saying there's no such thing as short people because everyone has "height" Someone who tells lies is a liar. Would you argue that almost everyone you met is not, in some way, telling a lie? Either of Omission or something else? Though if you believe that diminishes the power of people to point out egregious lies, that I would disagree with. The intent and meaning behind lies matters at the same time as the lie itself. I do understand that this isn't exactly a good view. Sorry I am probably coming across as a real arse. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 18:15
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Josef bugman posted:Someone who tells lies is a liar. Would you argue that almost everyone you met is not, in some way, telling a lie? Either of Omission or something else? I mean, the inability to know the definite truth is kinda hard-baked into the universe. Can you tell me both the position and the velocity of a subatomic particle?  Every statement we make is subject to things like context, experience, mental state, and so on. In addition, truth-lie when discussing human statements is not a binary. There's even whole branches of math based on truth values being a continuum from complete falsehood to completely true. And finally, yes, "is telling a lie" and "is wrong" are not the same thing. This is kind of a big deal. To give you a simple example: John's height is 180cm. Is John tall? How true is your answer? If a housewife in Moscow says that Russia isn't doing anything wrong right now, is she lying? Does she believe that what Russia is doing is not wrong and is therefore telling the truth and she just doesn't mind mass murder, has she just never had facts penetrate the bubble she lives in and is also telling the truth but is wrong, does she know about the ongoing extermination of formerly rebel held parts of Aleppo's population but wants to pretend that she doesn't and is therefore lying, or does she think that the concept of Russia and the nation state of Russia are two different things in which case you have a communication failure? Newton's theory of gravity fails to accurately describe the properties of the universe, yet under certain conditions it accurately matches what we can perceive, and we can make accurate predictions based on it as long as these conditions are met, even though these conditions aren't actually stated anywhere in the theory itself. Truth, mistake, lie, or, maybe, a model with limitations? One thing I hate is how much people underestimate the sheer amount of effort involved in telling the truth - the combination of introspection for biases and observation of the world around you and repeated confirmation of what you may think of as facts takes a lot out of you. If you have an approach that's good enough to be truthful most of the time at a reasonable expenditure of effort, are you willingly lying in situation where it fails? Are you still lying if you're willing to listen to others in those situations and switch to a more effort-consuming approach to deal with the situation? There's a reason why it took us millenia to come up with things like the scientific method, and why we aren't using it for every single thing we deal with in our lives. Don't loving ask people to be dumb machines that can only work with an on-off logic system, and then call them weak when they don't match with what you're asking of them.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:41
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The Phlegmatist posted:I really enjoy when Protestants appeal to Natural Law (which doesn't jive with sola scriptura) when they're just making GBS threads all over LGBT stuff i don't
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Dec 13, 2016 18:58
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Samuel Clemens posted:Despite his fondness for quoting Aquinas, Bob Page is really more into transhumanism. i knew a guy who was a christian transhumanist. it was at seminary. he asked me what classes i was taking and when i mentioned the trans theology class he asked if the arguments could be used for transhuman theology. never told him how offended i was, mostly cause i wasn't completely out at the time
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Dec 13, 2016 19:14
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...I was born as a German cyborg in a fleshy Lithuanian body and I need a skull gun to express my true self.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:50
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Mo Tzu posted:i knew a guy who was a christian transhumanist. it was at seminary. he asked me what classes i was taking and when i mentioned the trans theology class he asked if the arguments could be used for transhuman theology. never told him how offended i was, mostly cause i wasn't completely out at the time
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Dec 13, 2016 19:52
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Mo Tzu posted:i knew a guy who was a christian transhumanist. it was at seminary. he asked me what classes i was taking and when i mentioned the trans theology class he asked if the arguments could be used for transhuman theology. never told him how offended i was, mostly cause i wasn't completely out at the time what's Christian transhumanism other than "welp, I want to upload my brain into a computer also something about Jesus and also have you read Jacques Derrida."
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Dec 13, 2016 19:54
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Mo Tzu posted:i knew a guy who was a christian transhumanist. it was at seminary. he asked me what classes i was taking and when i mentioned the trans theology class he asked if the arguments could be used for transhuman theology. never told him how offended i was, mostly cause i wasn't completely out at the time I don't know if I should laugh or cringe. This is so... transhumanists.txt it's amazing.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:54
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Well, I mean, transhumanism is the idea that humanity's form and subjection to suffering are wrong and can be corrected. That clearly doesn't encompass every way of thinking about trans* issues, and obviously it'd be insensitive to act like the other ways don't exist, but is it offensive just to acknowledge the overlap?
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Dec 13, 2016 20:02
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It is if you're asking for ways to mine the theology of a minority that's persecuted by the church without caring about that minority, to a member of that minority
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Dec 13, 2016 20:23
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clueless white guys? into transhumanism? say it ain't so, mo
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Dec 13, 2016 20:29
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Well, I mean, transhumanism is the idea that humanity's form and subjection to suffering are wrong and can be corrected. That clearly doesn't encompass every way of thinking about trans* issues, and obviously it'd be insensitive to act like the other ways don't exist, but is it offensive just to acknowledge the overlap? Theoretically maybe somebody could pull that off, but no way the sort of dudes that identify as transhumanist have the social awareness to do it. You know how the Pharaohs had two crowns to symbolize upper and lower Egypt? Transhumanist seminarians should get two fedoras.
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Dec 13, 2016 21:03
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Transhumanism is the secular rapture
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Dec 13, 2016 21:11
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one way or the other, somebody's gotta conquer death
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Dec 13, 2016 21:13
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Samuel Clemens posted:Despite his fondness for quoting Aquinas, Bob Page is really more into transhumanism. The Jesuit priest Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (may have) said, "We are not humans having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience." The transhumans, robots, and aliens will have their own need for rapport with the invisible God. Josef bugman posted:Are sins just those things that you "know it when you see it". They are more than that, though you are equipped with a conscience that orients you to what is right and wrong. quote:I don't know what believers you've met, but mine have been made miserable by the fact that their families do not believe and think that therefore the people who raised them are going to hell. All of them. I find that not simply distasteful and sorrowful, but deeply and patently infuriating. This is true; you do not know the believers I have met, and I do not know the believers you have met. And even if I were to meet them all, I wouldn't know their lives as they know it, and even less as God knows it.
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Dec 13, 2016 21:21
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my dad posted:Don't loving ask people to be dumb machines that can only work with an on-off logic system, and then call them weak when they don't match with what you're asking of them. I looked back and it was in response to someone saying that Cheating would "Make" liars out of people. I do agree with your post. Mo Tzu posted:i knew a guy who was a christian transhumanist. it was at seminary. he asked me what classes i was taking and when i mentioned the trans theology class he asked if the arguments could be used for transhuman theology. never told him how offended i was, mostly cause i wasn't completely out at the time HEY GAL posted:clueless white guys? into transhumanism? say it ain't so, mo Transhumanism always seems to fill the space of religion amongst some of the groddier parts of the internet, so this suprises me a bit. Did the person in question give a reason? P-Mack posted:You know how the Pharaohs had two crowns to symbolize upper and lower Egypt? Transhumanist seminarians should get two fedoras. Look at ole Johny two hats over here! (I'd like to think if they got into those groups that don't accept Vatican II they grow a third one). Tuxedo Catfish posted:one way or the other, somebody's gotta conquer death Entropy affects everything in the end. No-ones going to stop that. Personally I am looking forward to having nothing expected of me as I go into oblivion. Mo Tzu. if you don't mind me asking, what made you change from Liberation Theology? Caufman posted:They are more than that, though you are equipped with a conscience that orients you to what is right and wrong. But conscience is born out of our cultural expectations, or at least appears to be. Most people inherit (to a greater or lesser extent) the beliefs of their culture as regards good and evil. Does a conscience exist outside of that? Perhaps, but part of me does want to get very cross with the believers who cut out members of their own family for not being pious, and are so afriad of the loving God is going to send the family they love to hell. What kind of God would do that? What kind of person would think that someone they love would do that? Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 21:22
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There are people here who disagree with Vatican II, and even a SSPX member
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Dec 13, 2016 21:24
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Caufman posted:The Jesuit priest Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (may have) said, "We are not humans having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience." That's a rather unpleasant dichotomy. Josef bugman posted:Entropy affects everything in the end. No-ones going to stop that. It's worth fighting even if it's futile. "The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart."
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Dec 13, 2016 21:27
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Josef bugman posted:I looked back and it was in response to someone saying that Cheating would "Make" liars out of people. I do agree with your post. I was specifically talking about the "everyone is a liar" part. Trivializing the act of lying by giving truth impossible standards to uphold only lets willful, blatant, even evil deceivers get away with what they do.
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Dec 13, 2016 21:32
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Josef bugman posted:But conscience is born out of our cultural expectations, or at least appears to be. Most people inherit (to a greater or lesser extent) the beliefs of their culture as regards good and evil. Does a conscience exist outside of that? I believe so, but you'll have to tell me if feel your conscience is only born out of your cultural expectations. quote:Perhaps, but part of me does want to get very cross with the believers who cut out members of their own family for not being pious, and are so afriad of the loving God is going to send the family they love to hell. What kind of God would do that? What kind of person would think that someone they love would do that? If you are thinking of someone(s) in particular who've cut out family members, it may be right for you to intervene. But if I may suggest, it may be more effective to approach them with humility than with annoyance, because you may not know everything that is in play within their family and their psyches. Tuxedo Catfish posted:That's a rather unpleasant dichotomy. Sincerely, how so?
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Dec 13, 2016 21:43
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Caufman posted:Sincerely, how so? If the human experience isn't spiritual, why are we even here? If the spiritual experience isn't human, then in what sense are we saved?
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Dec 13, 2016 21:55
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Lutha Mahtin posted:i think your exegesis here says a lot more about you than it does the text, realtalk So what do you think Jesus meant when he said that she had five husbands?
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Dec 13, 2016 22:04
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my dad posted:I was specifically talking about the "everyone is a liar" part. Trivializing the act of lying by giving truth impossible standards to uphold only lets willful, blatant, even evil deceivers get away with what they do. I am sorry about this, but I don't quite understand. But I do not believe that saying that most people tell some form of lie means that there are no grounds to call out deceit when it can do harm to people/the world in general. I know truth/lie is a spectrum and not a binary switch. They move up or down on the spectrum but I would still say that, during ones lifetime everyone has told someone something that is categorically untrue. I would argue that would make everyone a liar. Not bad people perhaps but certainly liars. That does not or should not prevent people from pointing out deception and falsehood in others, but act as a thing to bear in mind when casting aspersions on others truthfulness. I am sorry about this, I am not sure if I am reading this correctly or expressing myself correctly. Would I be able to read up on this somewhere? Caufman posted:I believe so, but you'll have to tell me if feel your conscience is only born out of your cultural expectations. Mainly. Take a child from now back to ancient Greece and he'd wax poetic on the joys of slave ownership. Do the same and take her back to the 1700's and she'd probably believe women shouldn't have the franchise. The only other option is to either construct a conscience based on what seems like a good idea, again informed by ones cultural ideas, or in active opposition to the cultural ideas. Even the latter would still be informed by the ideas, they'd simply be based on rejection. Active personal choice would mean being able to work from first principles and even most of those are constructs to a greater or lesser extent. We've had talks about it. I am not a close friend, though I was at one point. I agree it would be best to approach in humility. But part of me really does want to ask why she believes a God that loves her would hate her family so much. It wouldn't go anywhere good I know that. But I would still like to know.
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Dec 13, 2016 22:05
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:If the human experience isn't spiritual, why are we even here? If the spiritual experience isn't human, then in what sense are we saved? I'm not an expert on Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, but I don't think he wanted to question if the human experience is spiritual. His playing with words is to suggest that homo sapient existence is one iteration of a spiritual existence, and the first iteration we can witness. However, it may not be the only iteration of spiritual existence that exists now or will exist in the future. So the spiritual existence is human, but isn't solely human. In what sense are we humans saved? In the sense that this human narrative still plays out in accordance to the unfolding of the universe, and that Jesus remains an earthly incarnation of God.
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Dec 13, 2016 22:12
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Josef bugman posted:I am sorry about this, but I don't quite understand. But I do not believe that saying that most people tell some form of lie means that there are no grounds to call out deceit when it can do harm to people/the world in general. I argue the opposite. We may have fundamentally different worldviews on this issue, though, and my arguments against might end up identical to your arguments for. And what something should do or shouldn't do is a very different sort of beast from what something does. e: Actually, saying that I argue the opposite isn't correct. I'm disagreeing with your statement, not stating that there is no such thing as a liar. my dad fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 22:13
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Josef bugman posted:Transhumanism always seems to fill the space of religion amongst some of the groddier parts of the internet, so this suprises me a bit. Did the person in question give a reason? quote:Mo Tzu. if you don't mind me asking, what made you change from Liberation Theology?
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Dec 13, 2016 22:19
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my dad posted:I argue the opposite. We may have fundamentally different worldviews on this issue, though, and my arguments against might end up identical to your arguments for. Okay. I am sorry we couldn't come to an agreement. Would you mind discussing this more at a later date? In case either of us changes our minds? That is something that I find unfortunately very true. Oh I understood that bit, just about! Mo Tzu posted:It was four years ago man I don't remember. Ha, fair enough. What is the liberatory tradition inside of Buddhism, from your own perspective? Are there any good books to read about jodo shinshu or would it be an "experience based" school. Also feel free to ignore the questions if they are stupid/impolite! Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 22:24
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i was looking for clothes online, and... https://www.etsy.com/shop/ReformedMenswear?ref=l2-shopheader-name ...this is some sort of Calvinist tailoring dogwhistle, isn't it
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Dec 13, 2016 22:26
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HEY GAL posted:i disagree wholeheartedly. I was with my ex for eight years and we never married. But I loved them. Plenty of people in shorter-term relationships love each other, you can see it every day. I love the person I'm with right now, even though where we are in our lives doesn't let us get married, but I already promised in front of God to be with them. I'm currently in a relationship, and I have resolved, truly resolved, that it will be the relationship which I celebrate and reify for my remaining years. We're not married, officially, but in my heart I am married. I've had two past extra-marital loving relationships (and one relationship which was less than fully loving), and for the longest time I liked to imagine that that was just the way things were, but during a moment of great pain, I realized that the rationalizations I told myself to justify their end were just that, rationalizations. In the loving relationships I had, I really could have made them better, made them fullfilling, made them what they ought to have been. That I didn't was a sin of missed opportunity. A good example: in the first one, I ended a relationship that became long-distance because I blithely assumed that it just wouldn't work because of that. The truth was that, having lost my virginity, I felt much more confidence in my sexuality, and wanted to play the college field. This I wanted to do because I felt that that is what it means to be a guy in college. The end result of that being that I have lived with guilt and regret and at the same time failed comically at playing the field. To hurt others IS to hurt ourselves. This harm can exist below the level of our immediate understanding. Addictions are attempts to cure this harm that we have given ourselves with more harm. Imagine that you have a gaping wound in your abdomen. To sin against others is to pack mud and twigs and leaves over the wound and expect it to be fine. As far as fornication goes, it is because I take consent so seriously that I have decided that I ultimately can no longer just shrug of fornication as "just one of those things." Of course, this desire to take consent originally came from a psychological neediness and desperate insecurity, but so it goes. I really believe that sex has psychological power, and it shouldn't be considered lightly. That said, it is something which happens more often than not from a desire for good, a desire for love, and that really does matter so I also believe that it isn't something that should inspire crippling guilt or public shame. I say all of this in the spirit of fallibility: I could be wrong about all of this. My experience is merely one point of data in a vast ocean of phenomena, and it may prove contrary to the spirit of our age, the spirit of all ages. But still, it is an experience that happened and I would hope at least warrants consideration. As an aside, it really pisses me off when fire and brimstone preachers condemn homosexuals into hellfire with such vigor while remaining mysteriously silent on the role of heterosexual procurers in the persistence of sex trafficking. I say this to demonstrate that my views on sexual morality are not paleo-conservative as they may seem. It's not like I'm advocating instituting laws punishing fornication.
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Dec 13, 2016 22:27
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Josef bugman posted:Mainly. Take a child from now back to ancient Greece and he'd wax poetic on the joys of slave ownership. Do the same and take her back to the 1700's and she'd probably believe women shouldn't have the franchise. The only other option is to either construct a conscience based on what seems like a good idea, again informed by ones cultural ideas, or in active opposition to the cultural ideas. Even the latter would still be informed by the ideas, they'd simply be based on rejection. Active personal choice would mean being able to work from first principles and even most of those are constructs to a greater or lesser extent. The child you're talking about is not a real person we can talk to, but a hypothetical for the sake of discussion, which is fine, but he does not have a conscience except the one we are making up for him. But let's accept his existence as a parable so we can speak to him, and likely there were Greek children who could wax poetic on slave ownership. I would ask him to contemplate John Rawl's mental exercise of the veil of ignorance, to imagine if he didn't know whether he would be a slave owner or a slave, an ancient Greek or a transhuman Martian, and then to contemplate what justice is. quote:We've had talks about it. I am not a close friend, though I was at one point. I agree it would be best to approach in humility. But part of me really does want to ask why she believes a God that loves her would hate her family so much. It wouldn't go anywhere good I know that. But I would still like to know. That is an excellent question, though, and completely substantial. "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way," said Tolstoy. I don't know why there is brokenness in your friend's family, but I know why there is brokenness in mine, and it is because of suffering and trauma that is hard to talk about.
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Dec 13, 2016 22:28
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Josef bugman posted:Okay. I am sorry we couldn't come to an agreement. Would you mind discussing this more at a later date? In case either of us changes our minds? Oh, I don't mind further discussion, and I certainly didn't try to end it. I tend to be direct about things like that, since I'm sick and tired of subtletly-induced communication failures.
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Dec 13, 2016 22:32
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HEY GAL posted:i was looking for clothes online, and... Calvinist tailor sounds very depressing "You know that someday you will make a shirt. Wether it is the right one or not YOU CANNOT KNOW!" Caufman posted:The child you're talking about is not a real person we can talk to, but a hypothetical for the sake of discussion, which is fine, but he does not have a conscience except the one we are making up for him. Oh yeah, sorry I should have stipulated that you take a baby back to the time period and leave them with a family back then to raise, they would grow up with a completely different moral compass to one of today. That was daft of me, and a poor metaphor. Would you mind if I went back to alter it? That's the thing, from my own limited perspective, it is not broken. Her mum and dad are married for a very long time, her mum a successful writer and her dad with a job in land surveying. Her brother and her get along well, and they often seem to play articulate together and have fun. But she still sees them as going to hell because they do not believe in God. Her family is none religious, to the point of Atheism, but she was very into Church during school and it continued on to university when there was a huge break up with her boyfriend etc. Now she believes that God will not accept her family at all because of their lack of direct belief. I find it very sad. my dad posted:Oh, I don't mind further discussion, and I certainly didn't try to end it. I tend to be direct about things like that, since I'm sick and tired of subtletly-induced communication failures. That's fair. I more just meant in the future. No point keeping an argument going. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 22:39
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Oh bugger, meant to alter a post instead of post again. Oh and Caufman, I would like to thank you for recommending Mans search for meaning. Its been very interesting.
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Dec 13, 2016 22:41
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Sure.
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Dec 13, 2016 22:42
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Josef bugman posted:Calvinist tailor sounds very depressing "You know that someday you will make a shirt. Wether it is the right one or not YOU CANNOT KNOW!"
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Dec 13, 2016 22:43
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HEY GAL posted:unfortunately, i did not find the quality of his products irresistible. I am trying to think up a schism joke that involves underpants. Anyone got any good ones?
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Dec 13, 2016 22:47
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