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saint bernard save this thread from eating itself
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Dec 14, 2016 04:34
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it's true, Bernie Sanders' entire movement was built upon minutely and thoroughly making GBS threads all over everything that Obama ever did or said
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Dec 14, 2016 04:35
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:It is if you actually win with that noble lie. No, because the noble lie becomes a foundational mythology and could end up resulting in disaster. Neoconservatism was built around the noble lie as a progressive force, and it failed, and Hillary reached out more to them than the left. Obama would have been a great consul, but he was not a good president. Sorry.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:35
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How Obama is going to be remembered is going to be determined a lot by how Obamacare is going to be remembered, and that's going to depend a lot on what happens to Obamacare under the upcoming Republican rule.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:36
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obama failed, his reasons for failure need to be understood and critically analyzed, lionizing him does more harm than good, in that his failures will simply be repeated down the line you have to actually learn from your mistakes, which firstly means admitting then having obama as president was a mistake, the better choice would have been a bigger rear end in a top hat, because that is what the job requires
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Dec 14, 2016 04:38
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my small take on the ACA: not perfect, but perfect is not necessary. the congressional majority was very overrated: blue dogs are just sympathetic republicans. nobody was going to get through single payer or the public option, so like a lot of things that come out of the legislature it was a compromise. republicans wanted to make it look bad so they handicapped it whenever possible, like with the state-optional medicare expansions. perfect is never possible and was not necessary because it still provided help to those who needed it. was the help perfect? did it bring with it a separate set of hardship? probably. but it was designed to give coverage to a lot of americans and it did its job pretty well. waiting for perfect would have left them in limbo for an indefinitely long period of time, which quite frankly is cruel and is only supported by those who were already fortunate enough to have medical coverage. it could have been better at each step but don't forget that every step of the way there was somebody who didn't want to make it worse, they wanted it gone.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:38
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:No, because the noble lie becomes a foundational mythology and could end up resulting in disaster. Neoconservatism was built around the noble lie as a progressive force, and it failed, and Hillary reached out more to them than the left. Fostering a belief that Obama was well-meaning but incapable of achieving Full Socialist Healthcare Now and that we should build off what he did achieve and make it better and not lovely is exactly comparable to what neoconservatives believe, yessir this is not an insane statement at all.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:38
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:yeah obviously the most productive thing is continue fighting over the unchangeable past while the republicans loot the future in the present Calling bullshit on the altruistic Obama being held hostage by Baucus and Lieberman and being forced to sign a bad healthcare law isn't counterproductive, especially when said law contributed to the situation we are in. But if it makes you less butthurt we can all agree that Obama wanted drug reimportation, the public option, and even dental added just so you can stop making GBS threads the thread with your strawmans.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:39
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the filibuster (for passing bills) has become the "free media coverage" option for budding legislators, so it will never go away it has obviously changed over the years (for example, it's gone for judicial nominees) but for bills, such as the ACA, it will never never go away
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Dec 14, 2016 04:40
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Republicans are probably drawing up a plan where you have to sell your organs to an HMO to get partial coverage that doesn't cover preexisting conditions like being a woman, but yeah, it's Obamacare that's the real loving problem now.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:41
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Guy Goodbody posted:How Obama is going to be remembered is going to be determined a lot by how Obamacare is going to be remembered, and that's going to depend a lot on what happens to Obamacare under the upcoming Republican rule. orrrr it already is way expensive because the insurance companies need to keep their stock holders flush. Existing problems do not become Trump's problems. Even though he could make it worse.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:43
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Grognan posted:Existing problems do not become Trump's problems. They have for every other president ever, why is Trump any different?
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Dec 14, 2016 04:44
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Guy Goodbody posted:How Obama is going to be remembered is going to be determined a lot by how Obamacare is going to be remembered, and that's going to depend a lot on what happens to Obamacare under the upcoming Republican rule. prolly pretty good then because it'll be all "man gently caress those rethuglicans for gutting my obammycare and social security and medicare."
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Dec 14, 2016 04:45
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Grognan posted:orrrr it already is way expensive because the insurance companies need to keep their stock holders flush. Existing problems do not become Trump's problems. Even though he could make it worse. I'm not talking about whether or not Obamacare is good, but how it will be remembered. If the Republicans flush Obamacare and replace it with nothing or something terrible, Obamacare will be remembered more fondly than if the Republicans leave it technically in place but make it even worse.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:45
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:They have for every other president ever, why is Trump any different? Trump is like no other president ever. We're in uncharted territory here
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Dec 14, 2016 04:46
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paul ryan is right now managing a war between the tea party caucus who unironically want to remove all of the ACA, right away and the other morons who want to replace it first, then repeal it (or a combination of the two that prevents people from losing coverage) and those tea party people *whistles* they are loving insane
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Dec 14, 2016 04:46
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I Donald Trump ran on a platform of fixing all America's problems and although they've become massively worse under my administration it's totally not my fault because Make America Great Again
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Dec 14, 2016 04:47
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Serf posted:Trump is like no other president ever. We're in uncharted territory here That's true but I've already seen buyer's remorse from his voters and the guy isn't even president yet. I think a big part of the anti-facts field comes from the fact that the guy was never a politician and thus any attacks on that didn't stick. When he's in the office actively making life shittier for everyone I think the worm will turn pretty quickly.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:48
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Fostering a belief that Obama was well-meaning but incapable of achieving Full Socialist Healthcare Now and that we should build off what he did achieve and make it better and not lovely is exactly comparable to what neoconservatives believe, yessir this is not an insane statement at all. Wanting to fix what's wrong with the ACA and implement a better system was literally Bernie's healthcare platform, but the Obamists & Clintonites painted that as wanting to throw out progress for the sake of the perfect. Disingenuously framing the realm of possibility in favor of pro-corporate centrist positions is what got us into this mess. People can complain about the ACA not being perfect, but a public option wasn't even perfect to begin with. A public option was the bare minimum necessary to make the system work, since it would have allowed people who didn't qualify for subsidy to opt out of the private exchanges altogether. Instead the insurance companies were the ones who got to opt out of the exchanges, while everyone else was threatened with a mandate to buy private insurance. All because leading Democrats weren't willing to engage in the foul necessities of blood & guts politics, and instead started negotiating from a compromised position.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:48
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it's all a messaging war now, the republicans have the unilateral ability to gently caress most portions of the law and replace it with medicare privatization, health savings accounts, or some other bullshit they will pin anything bad coming from their indiscriminate whacking of the machine with sledgehammers on the dems, and it is the job for the dems to make the correct and convincing case that no, it's the republicans who are loving you over now
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Dec 14, 2016 04:48
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Serf posted:Trump is like no other president ever. We're in uncharted territory here If we're in uncharted territory then you can't actually say with certainty that he won't be subject to the same rules as every other President, can you?
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Dec 14, 2016 04:49
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Fiction posted:That's true but I've already seen buyer's remorse from his voters and the guy isn't even president yet. I think a big part of the anti-facts field comes from the fact that the guy was never a politician and thus any attacks on that didn't stick. When he's in the office actively making life shittier for everyone I think the worm will turn pretty quickly. I want you to be right, but I'll believe it when I see it. Just today my coworker told me she didn't vote, but she wishes she had voted for Trump.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:50
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logikv9 posted:it's all a messaging war now, the republicans have the unilateral ability to gently caress most portions of the law and replace it with medicare privatization, health savings accounts, or some other bullshit I'd hope that pinning the dismantling of Medicare on the guys who control every branch of government is a gimme but I know that's probably asking a lot of the american people.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:50
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Wanting to fix what's wrong with the ACA and implement a better system was literally Bernie's healthcare platform, but the Obamists & Clintonites painted that as wanting to throw out progress for the sake of the perfect. Disingenuously framing the realm of possibility in favor of pro-corporate centrist positions is what got us into this mess. People can complain about the ACA not being perfect, but a public option wasn't even perfect to begin with. A public option was the bare minimum necessary to make the system work, since it would have allowed people who didn't qualify for subsidy to opt out of the private exchanges altogether. Instead the insurance companies were the ones who got to opt out of the exchanges, while everyone else was threatened with a mandate to buy private insurance. All because leading Democrats weren't willing to engage in the foul necessities of blood & guts politics, and instead started negotiating from a compromised position. So Democrats should publicly blame other Democrats ad nauseum for everything up to the price of tea in China while Trump tries to tear this country a new rear end in a top hat. That sounds like a winning strategy.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:51
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People overestimate Trump's ability to sell people on bullshit because they get mad that @MagaBro1488 won't respond to their sick burns on twitter I guess Trump isn't very popular and he's in a tenuous position right now. If he fucks with people's healthcare (and he will), he and the rest of the party are toast.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:51
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obviously what should have been done: started negotiating on the position of full socialist healthcare now, and then meet in the middle at the public option. bing bong so simple, says the moron
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Dec 14, 2016 04:51
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:If we're in uncharted territory then you can't actually say with certainty that he won't be subject to the same rules as every other President, can you? Nothing I've seen so far leads me to believe the rules will start applying to him when he enters office. His track record speaks to defying tradition, logic and good sense.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:51
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:So Democrats should publicly blame other Democrats ad nauseum for everything up to the price of tea in China while Trump tries to tear this country a new rear end in a top hat. That sounds like a winning strategy. Literally no one is doing this but you continue to chase after windmills.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:51
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Fiction posted:I'd hope that pinning the dismantling of Medicare on the guys who control every branch of government is a gimme but I know that's probably asking a lot of the american people. they're marketing it as a "permanent fix" to medicare, and the cuts are so that it'll take quite a while for people to feel the pain. long enough that the boomers can enjoy benefits until they die while the millenials get turbofucked although i need to double-check that medicare cuts table to make sure
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Dec 14, 2016 04:52
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punk rebel ecks posted:Sounds like an rear end in a top hat. I'll cut you if you speak ill of Huey long. Louisiana was like 20% literate when he took office
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Dec 14, 2016 04:54
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:So Democrats should publicly blame other Democrats ad nauseum for everything up to the price of tea in China while Trump tries to tear this country a new rear end in a top hat. That sounds like a winning strategy. Trump isn't even president yet. Now is the time to hash out the chronic problems at the heart of Democratic failures, not later. Uncritically rallying behind the establishment whose politics completely and utterly failed in the face of one of the most easily winnable elections ever, is not the path forward.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:55
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Republicans are probably drawing up a plan where you have to sell your organs to an HMO to get partial coverage that doesn't cover preexisting conditions like being a woman, but yeah, it's Obamacare that's the real loving problem now. saying 'but the dems are better' really worked out brilliantly this election cycle, i'm glad to see people still sticking to that line
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Dec 14, 2016 04:55
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Rastor posted:The reason we got the ACA as written isn't because of mean old Joe Lieberman, it's because Obama and the Democrats didn't actually want it. This is the reason the Hillary/The DNC Platform is total garbage. They don't actually want things to change. Wealth inequality is GOOD for the 1%. Insurance Companies raping the salaried class is GOOD for the 1% who benefit from those profits. Ignoring the environment is GOOD for the 1% who benefit from the energy sector profits. Pitting Social Justice against things like UHC, GMI or Free College for everyone benefits only the Capitalist. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 14, 2016 04:55
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logikv9 posted:obviously what should have been done: started negotiating on the position of full socialist healthcare now, and then meet in the middle at the public option. bing bong so simple, says the moron That would have been better than starting without a public option at all.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:56
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I suggested that maybe we should use Obama, a popular Democratic ex-President, as a symbol and build off his popularity even if it takes some bending of the truth because aspiration is a way better message than infighting and rehashing old grievances. A bunch of bitter angryposters descended in a swarm to say "well, actually Obama is bad and stupid because ACA". I said this is not a constructive strategy or line of discussion. Angryposters said "well actually it is because Obama..." And so on and so on until I pull ahead to the next window and pay for my McChicken.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:56
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logikv9 posted:they're marketing it as a "permanent fix" to medicare, and the cuts are so that it'll take quite a while for people to feel the pain. long enough that the boomers can enjoy benefits until they die while the millenials get turbofucked Will it, though? Premiums aren't going in the other direction any time soon I don't think. The specific effects of the bill might take time to hurt people, but the state of American healthcare will continue to get more and more tenuous under Republican stewardship.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:57
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logikv9 posted:obviously what should have been done: started negotiating on the position of full socialist healthcare now, and then meet in the middle at the public option. bing bong so simple, says the moron That's actually smarter than how Obama began negotiations by taking singlepayer off the table.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:58
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Cubey posted:saying 'but the dems are better' really worked out brilliantly this election cycle, i'm glad to see people still sticking to that line I'm all about Bernie and Keith but I don't have this reflexive hatred for Obama and his works like some of you. He's probably going to be a popular ex-president and it'd be as stupid not to try to use that to our advantage going forward than it was of Robby Mook and the Hillary Henchmen not to listen to Bill Clinton about how Poor White Votes Matter.
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Dec 14, 2016 04:59
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:I'm all about Bernie and Keith but I don't have this reflexive hatred for Obama and his works like some of you. He's probably going to be a popular ex-president and it'd be as stupid not to try to use that to our advantage going forward than it was of Robby Mook and the Hillary Henchmen not to listen to Bill Clinton about how Poor White Votes Matter. It's not a bad idea, we'd just have to divorce Obama from his policies to the same extent that the Republicans did with Reagan.
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Dec 14, 2016 05:00
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:I suggested that maybe we should use Obama, a popular Democratic ex-President, as a symbol and build off his popularity even if it takes some bending of the truth because aspiration is a way better message than infighting and rehashing old grievances. I plainly explained to you why noble lies aren't constructive.
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Dec 14, 2016 05:00
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