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Adel posted:It might be more like people got so obsessed with increasingly innovative automation that it naturally escalated into, "hey, why not have AI fight our wars for us? It'll reduce the loss of human life and surely nothing will go wrong Technology, uh. found a way...
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Dec 14, 2016 16:23
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" and didn't stop to think just because they could, doesn't mean they should.
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BizarroAzrael posted:Technology, uh. found a way... Holy loving poo poo, it's a mobile suit, Jesus christ, what the fuuuck
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Dec 14, 2016 16:30
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Adel posted:It'd be interesting if they went the angle of Agnika Kaieru and the Seven Star founders being members of a lower class who came together to clean up the aristocracy's hosed up MAs and tried to set up a system where the rich couldn't make the same mistake, only for their descendants to rebuilt the aristocracy around themselves. That would also be neat 'cause it'd set up a parallel between them and Tekkadan.
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Dec 14, 2016 17:14
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There hasn't been much talk about the dub, but overall I am a big fan of many of the choices they made in terms of voice direction.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:38
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Hunt11 posted:There hasn't been much talk about the dub, but overall I am a big fan of many of the choices they made in terms of voice direction. The dub has been wonderful the entire way through. EinBorg sounded wonderfully unhinged, and Mika showing a rare moment of emotion when he outright growled that he was going to kill Carta were two moments in the last few episodes that stood out to me in particular.
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Dec 14, 2016 19:15
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Adel posted:It might be more like people got so obsessed with increasingly innovative automation that it naturally escalated into, "hey, why not have AI fight our wars for us? It'll reduce the loss of human life and surely nothing will go wrong I wouldn't hold your breath on that. I get a very Darius the great vibe with the seven stars. Noble families that supported him and so exist in perpetuity because of what their ancestors did.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:15
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Caros posted:I wouldn't hold your breath on that. I get a very Darius the great vibe with the seven stars. Noble families that supported him and so exist in perpetuity because of what their ancestors did. Well, whatever else happened, we know from McGillis that Agnika Kaieru was all in favor of social equality, and we know from the basic mechanics of the AV system that the original Gundam pilots were child soldiers with horrific cybernetic modification. Could be they had titles or reps before that, but they were willing to put it all on the line, and trade the old rules for reputation based on performance. Even if they were nobs, they were the sort that thinks very highly of noblesse oblige. 'Tis ours, the dignity they give to grace The first in valour, as the first in place; That when with wondering eyes our confidential bands Behold our deeds transcending our commands, Such, they may cry, deserve the sovereign state, Whom those that envy dare not imitate! and all that.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:00
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chiasaur11 posted:Of course, now he's an action movie waiting to happen. I mean, think about it. Oh hell. I would watch "Takaki Wick" for sure.
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Dec 14, 2016 23:01
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Caros posted:I wouldn't hold your breath on that. I get a very Darius the great vibe with the seven stars. Noble families that supported him and so exist in perpetuity because of what their ancestors did. There were 72 gundams during the war, which means we're looking at 72 kids who got the whiskers. And that's just counting the ones who survived; I don't remember if the exact success rate was ever given, but we know it's low (and it was probably even lower back then since it was new technology), so that's hundreds of children that went through the process to get 72 pilots that would likely not be coming back when the war's over. And before that you need test subjects to get the whole thing usable. That's a level of horrifying that I don't see the aristocracy subjecting themselves to, and that's even if there are enough noble kids to offer up as candidates. It'd be easier to pull from the larger vulnerable pool of poor kids and orphans when a pilot is needed. a computer ghost fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Dec 15, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 23:58
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Adel posted:There were 72 gundams during the war, which means we're looking at 72 kids who got the whiskers. And that's just counting the ones who survived; I don't remember if the exact success rate was ever given, but we know it's low (and it was probably even lower back then since it was new technology), so that's hundreds of children that went through the process to get 72 pilots that would likely not be coming back when the war's over. And before that you need test subjects to get the whole thing usable. I suspect the success rate would be at least a little higher, as the AV surgeries we've seen are done by people whose level of care can be summed up as "whoops. NEXT!". Nevermind the level of support equipment they might have for the procedure.
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Dec 15, 2016 00:04
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I suspect the success rate would be at least a little higher, as the AV surgeries we've seen are done by people whose level of care can be summed up as "whoops. NEXT!". Nevermind the level of support equipment they might have for the procedure. With centuries of maturation for the technology. I can believe they'd beat the current 60% success rate, but I'd think with how it's generally portrayed in-setting that it's still going to be high risk (especially for people who went in for multiple whiskers, which I'd assume as a default for Gundam pilots). Plus, they're doing all this work under heavy pressure, since they're trying to invent a machine to save humanity in the middle of a war for survival. I figure war orphans will be easy to come by, and time to reduce fatality rates less so.
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Dec 15, 2016 00:29
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chiasaur11 posted:With centuries of maturation for the technology. I can believe they'd beat the current 60% success rate, but I'd think with how it's generally portrayed in-setting that it's still going to be high risk (especially for people who went in for multiple whiskers, which I'd assume as a default for Gundam pilots). It's more that the operations would likely be done in actual surgical conditions by trained doctors and nurses, with supporting medical/cybernetic tech available to remedy or offset any complications. Considering they made 72 advanced war machines with very complicated twin-drive power systems, I don't think it was an issue of resources and time. Again, the operations we've seen pretty much consist of whoever's got a steady hand and which room is the least dirty. I don't doubt it's still a delicate high-risk procedure, but we're not exactly seeing qualified surgeons perform it.
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Dec 15, 2016 00:36
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It's also worth noting that A-V surgeries are strongly discouraged and outright ostracized, supposedly intentionally as part of suppressing the technology, so it's very likely that the safest methods of doing them are not necessarily ones that were recorded or made available.
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Dec 15, 2016 00:38
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Is it the conditions that make it dangerous, or is the procedure just inherently risky? A combination of both factors? And if it's the conditions, how much of an improvement is it? A 5% increase in success would be relatively negligible, but something like a 50% or higher increase would be a big difference. At the very least, that's 72 kids plus whoever got used for testing (and I don't believe for one second there wasn't some testing on human subjects), and that's assuming a perfect 100% success rate. Even if they were more advanced at the time and had better facilities and resources, it was still brand new technology that's incredible complicated and invasive, as well as developed under pressure and with a need for urgency; the MA weren't gonna wait around while a bunch of nerds lovingly perfected it.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:52
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Adel posted:Is it the conditions that make it dangerous, or is the procedure just inherently risky? A combination of both factors? And if it's the conditions, how much of an improvement is it? A 5% increase in success would be relatively negligible, but something like a 50% or higher increase would be a big difference. There is no certainty that the pilots were children. The leader of gjallerhorn was almost certainly not a child, but judging from the reaction to Mika he absolutely was a mobile suit pilot, and probably one with whiskers at that. We know that AV tech can work with adults having seen the Einborg. It seems entirely reasonable that when a military force is developing the gundams they could have also safely implanted grown soldiers rather than children.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:26
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Caros posted:There is no certainty that the pilots were children. The AV tech absolutely requires children, because it grows into their spinal column as a fundamental part of how it works. Einborg was a brutal surgical replacement, and all the Gundams we've seen have had conventional cockpits.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:29
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The AV tech absolutely requires children, because it grows into their spinal column as a fundamental part of how it works. Einborg was a brutal surgical replacement, and all the Gundams we've seen have had conventional cockpits. The subpar version of the surgery performed by (what I presume) the least drunk guy on staff to disposable children requires children. We know the surgery can work on an adult, at least in the short term. The diagrams showing Ein hooked up in his garbage machine had wires attached to his spine so it clearly can function with a fully grown adult. As for the brutal surgery, it is unclear hoe much of that was required to get the system to work for him and how much of it was required because he was functionally dead without life support machines. For all we know the surgery performed on adults (in safe conditions) works fine for a short period then cripples them for life. Or that it requires a more extensive setup. I thin the Flaurus (the new one they dug up) is the only Gundam we have seen on the show that hasnt been heavily remodelled in the intervening years. We have no idea what to original cockpit for the Barbados looked like for example, so it isn't outside the realm of possibility that it was equipped with a more primitive or complicated AV system. I'm not saying it is impossible, but between the assumption that Agnika used the system himself and Gjallerhorn's supposedly honorable backstory I have difficulty seeing them sending bunch of cyborged up ten year olds into combat.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:44
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I did consider that the original Gundam frame pilots could have been adults, but for the moment, I think it's more likely they were children. Ein was an outlier and required a different method to interface with the AV system. He didn't get a whisker, he was turned into a whisker. So for now there's no real example of anyone but children getting it. It is possible that the tech to give adults whiskers existed at the time and was lost, but you'd think Gjallarhorn's creepy science basement would've been able to figure it out. Since the best they could do was Ein and that's not what you'd call a success, I'm sticking with the idea is not possible unless the show corrects me. The founders being children is viable, just look at Tekkadan and what they've been able to do. I even strongly suspect that Agnika Kaieru himself was a child and that's part of why McGillis draws parallels between the two. Edit: Caros posted:I thin the Flaurus (the new one they dug up) is the only Gundam we have seen on the show that hasnt been heavily remodelled in the intervening years. We have no idea what to original cockpit for the Barbados looked like for example, so it isn't outside the realm of possibility that it was equipped with a more primitive or complicated AV system. That's a really good point about the cockpit having been different and is something to consider. I think it's mentioned that the whisker tech was used during the Calamity War, but the whiskers could have been safer and more sophisticated than the current model. I honestly don't trust the "official" version of Gjallarhorn's backstory. It's way too clean and convenient for the current Gjallarhorn and sounds more like propaganda or a fairytale than actual history, especially when IBO is not afraid to say, "war is hell." a computer ghost fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Dec 15, 2016 |
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Dec 15, 2016 04:51
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Caros posted:I'm not saying it is impossible, but between the assumption that Agnika used the system himself and Gjallerhorn's supposedly honorable backstory I have difficulty seeing them sending bunch of cyborged up ten year olds into combat. I don't know, it's really easy for me to see Gjallerhorn taking a dark but necessary step and whitewashing the poo poo out of it until people forgot all about it.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:53
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Caros posted:The subpar version of the surgery performed by (what I presume) the least drunk guy on staff to disposable children requires children. No. The basic principle of the AV surgery is it integrates with developing nerves and grows into them, which is something entirely different to how it's performed.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:57
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The AV tech absolutely requires children, because it grows into their spinal column as a fundamental part of how it works. Einborg was a brutal surgical replacement, and all the Gundams we've seen have had conventional cockpits. Einborg was a brutal surgical replacement by necessity of the fact that his body was totally ruined and he was crippled/dying when they gave him the AV treatment. It's entirely possible that you could give AV treatments to older individuals and have it take if the procedure was being done in a high tech hospital by doctors instead of by rear end in a top hat field medics jamming needles into kids spines in a tent. I mean Gjallarhorn has an entire rank reserved for people who killed a mobile armor and I strongly doubt that Agnika Kaeru and every member of his merry band were all 14 year olds.
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Dec 15, 2016 05:35
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Kanos posted:I mean Gjallarhorn has an entire rank reserved for people who killed a mobile armor and I strongly doubt that Agnika Kaeru and every member of his merry band were all 14 year olds. To be fair we ARE talking about a Gundam series here.
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Dec 15, 2016 05:39
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Neddy Seagoon posted:No. The basic principle of the AV surgery is it integrates with developing nerves and grows into them, which is something entirely different to how it's performed. The entire principle of the probably half baked version being used by a third rate backwater Merc group. The basic principle you described has already been subverted in the shown events of the series itself, so it is clearly possible for AV to be used by adults, it's just a matter of whether or not that same capability or something similar was around during the calamity war.
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Dec 15, 2016 05:45
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Caros posted:The entire principle of the probably half baked version being used by a third rate backwater Merc group. Unlikely. Einborg was only possible since the 'horns were working on the system in secret for centuries while cursing it in public. It was presented as the bleeding edge, not just something that was forgotten. Plus, if the wide use version was safe for all ages, there wouldn't be a child soldier edition exclusive to back alley street docs. It's not insane to think the current version is less safe (320 years of development vs. back alley chop shops, seems like a wash in my book but I can see it falling either way), but if the basic tech doesn't require child soldiers, there's no clear reason for the later version to pick up the caveat. Mars has enough riff-raff that being able to add late teens to the recruit pool isn't an active penalty, after all.
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Dec 15, 2016 07:58
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chiasaur11 posted:Unlikely. Einborg was only possible since the 'horns were working on the system in secret for centuries while cursing it in public. It was presented as the bleeding edge, not just something that was forgotten. I'm not saying that it was ever safe for all ages, far from it. My argument is basically that AV as it stands works ideally on children. It works so well in fact, that it can be done by back alley doctors in lovely conditions and still have a decent survival rate when used on kids. But that doesn't preclude the idea that in a proper medical setting it could theoretically be applied to adults. I mean here is the description: quote:Aside from mobile suits, the system can also be used with mobile workers and ships. The Alaya-Vijnana system consisted of two parts: one part is installed in the mobile weapon, and the other part (informally referred to as "Whiskers") is implanted into the pilot’s spine (usually at a young age to let implant fuse as they grow, but can be done on young adult as in the case of Ein Dalton), those with the implant are sometimes derogatorily called "Rats". For child soldiers it takes comparatively easily. Even a back alley doctor has about a coin flip on each surgery, which is why you see it being used on kids on mars. My suggestion is that what we saw with Ein isn't anything new. Galio wasn't surprised when McGilis suggested they Cyborg Ein, and that was before being introduced to the facility where the research had been ongoing. To me it suggests that it has always been possible to use the AV system on adults, but that it either had significant side effects over long term usage (Mikazuki's strokes etc), was cost prohibitive, or has a very low survival rate. For kids the danger is Pneumonia. It sucks, but even people in lovely situations can survive it with minimal treatment. For adults it is ebola, and you better hope to god you're in a first world hospital or you are hosed. I mean, I'm not saying it is impossible that the precursors to Gjallerhorn decided that their only option was to put children into mobile suits, certainly wouldn't be the first time the series has suggested it, but I have a really difficult time imagining the founder of Gjallerhorn as a fourteen year old boy. Especially after I just went back and watched some season one material where they talk about the joining of the economic blocks to push for the R&D to develop A-V and the Gundams.
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Dec 15, 2016 09:03
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Do we know how old Ein actually is, though? He's certainly still a teenager - he might simply be at the upper end of the window of opportunity.
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Dec 15, 2016 09:22
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He's older than hush who was told he was too old.
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Dec 15, 2016 10:56
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Caros posted:I'm not saying that it was ever safe for all ages, far from it. My argument is basically that AV as it stands works ideally on children. It works so well in fact, that it can be done by back alley doctors in lovely conditions and still have a decent survival rate when used on kids. But that doesn't preclude the idea that in a proper medical setting it could theoretically be applied to adults. Doesn't seem to match how people describe it. Tekkadan's vets talking about it don't describe it as "Your odds are terrible", but as "Yeah, even if we would do it, which we won't, it is physically impossible for a seventeen year old to get it." And while they're not exactly scientist, you'd think they'd have a lot of practical knowledge, both firsthand and from talking with people who are scientists just to make sure they're not turbofucked. As for Gaelio not being shocked when McGillis brings it up? Gaelio knows pretty much jack/poo poo about cybernetics. Iok gives us an idea of the kind of ignorance a heir can get away with, and while Gali-Gali isn't in his league, his reaction to his first sighting of the whiskers was to bend over double and vomit in shock/horror. He was pretty naive about the dark side of the solar system, so if McGillis went "Hey, I know a way.", then, well, it's McGillis, the guy's smart. Why assume he'd be wrong?
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Dec 15, 2016 11:02
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Darth Walrus posted:Do we know how old Ein actually is, though? He's certainly still a teenager - he might simply be at the upper end of the window of opportunity. The big thing is that Ein's procedure is not the same as what's done to the kids.  The point of the normal AV surgery is it integrates with their bodies and takes root as they grow, letting them live a normal life with the Whiskers. Ein's spinal connections are clearly just brute-forced in, because there's no concern for things like loss of normal motor function with his arms and legs lopped off.
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Dec 15, 2016 11:10
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Ein is a really tough example because we don't know how much of his condition is due to the mortal wounds he had taken and how much is due to the difficulty of getting an AV system to function with a less than ideal subject. The very fact that they did manage to make a three whisker AV link - something vanishingly rare even among child candidates - function pretty much flawlessly in an adult subject suggests it's possible to "brute force" AV connections even in absolutely terrible conditions, but until we see an example of an older patient that isn't on the verge of death already subjected to the treatment it's hard to say if such brute forcing would allow a subject to retain normal functionality.
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Dec 15, 2016 11:30
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The entire point of modern AV surgery is that it's literally just nanobot spinal jacks that get put in early and then grow with the person they got implanted in, rather than having the pilot be a brain in a jar. You can do a direct man/machine interface without the nanobot AV surgery, but the nanobot one only works on kids.
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Dec 15, 2016 12:38
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The big thing is that Ein's procedure is not the same as what's done to the kids. There is nothing clear about how that is 'brute forced' in. It shows three connections put directly into his back in the same three places that you normally would for an AV system. The only difference between this and the normal system we see with Mika is the lack of the single entry point cover, but considering they are installing half a human being making it easy for him to get in and out in a quick fashion is probably not a primary concern. All I'm saying is that we know it is possible for AV to work with adults, so it isn't guaranteed that Gjallerhorn's founding members were all children.
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Dec 15, 2016 15:28
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Caros posted:All I'm saying is that we know it is possible for AV to work with adults, so it isn't guaranteed that Gjallerhorn's founding members were all children. Gundams don't have AV systems. The entire AV discussion has nothing to do with the age of Gjallarhorn's founders.
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Dec 15, 2016 16:02
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Lemon-Lime posted:Gundams don't have AV systems. The entire AV discussion has nothing to do with the age of Gjallarhorn's founders. Yeah they did. The Gundams and the AV system were both created to fight Mobile Armors
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Dec 15, 2016 16:04
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It's also worth questioning just how much power the founding Seven Stars actually had. They could have just been the (un?)lucky surviving pilots that adults/power blocs propped up as figureheads; children being used by adults isn't an uncommon theme in IBO. I could see this happening with the others, but not Agnika based on the way McGillis slobbers all over him. A 14 year old revolutionary coming out of a devestating war isn't that hard to swallow in this setting, especially if he had the power of the gundams beyond him. Someone as intelligent and ambitious as Orga with Mika's murder mastery and 6 other gundams following his lead would be loving terrifying.
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Dec 15, 2016 16:06
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Gallyhorn reminds me of final fantasy 14 when a country established itself on survivors who fought a dragon. Is that more a western thing or asian thing?
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Dec 15, 2016 16:09
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Lemon-Lime posted:Gundams don't have AV systems. The entire AV discussion has nothing to do with the age of Gjallarhorn's founders. Yes they do. it is in fact a specific plot point that Gundams are specifically designed to take advantage of A-V systems. McGillis told us last season.
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Dec 15, 2016 16:12
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Guy Goodbody posted:Yeah they did. The Gundams and the AV system were both created to fight Mobile Armors I'm pretty sure no Gundam in the show to date has had come with AV system. Barbatos had to have it installed from a salvaged mobile worker; Gusion took its AV from a Man Rodi; Kimaris, Vidar and the two spinoff manga Gundams don't have AV at all. The two were invented during the Calamity War which is why Gundams are broadly compatible with AV systems when installed, but there is zero evidence that the Gjallarhorn founders had AV.
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Dec 15, 2016 16:17
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Lemon-Lime posted:I'm pretty sure no Gundam in the show to date has had come with AV system. Barbatos had to have it installed from a salvaged mobile worker; Gusion took its AV from a Man Rodi; Kimaris, Vidar and the two spinoff manga Gundams don't have AV at all. They specifically mention early on that the Gundams were designed to work with Alaya-Vijnana systems, which is why the replacement mobile worker cockpit integrates with the Barbatos so well, and why they have to wait until they get a system specifically designed for mobile suits in order to A-V up their captured Graze. The lack of original Gundams with the system (outside of the Steel Moon spin-off, where they use a hideous bodge-job to make the main character's artificial arm vaguely compatible with the Gundam's built-in systems) is simply because it fell so very much out of favour after the Calamity War.
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Dec 15, 2016 16:30
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Lemon-Lime posted:I'm pretty sure no Gundam in the show to date has had come with AV system. Barbatos had to have it installed from a salvaged mobile worker; Gusion took its AV from a Man Rodi; Kimaris, Vidar and the two spinoff manga Gundams don't have AV at all. Barbatos' original cockpit was missing, wasn't it? That's why they had to stick in a new one. The Brewers hosed around with the Gusion and their creepy pilot didn't have whiskers, plus it got banged up a lot, so having to replace/reinstall the AV makes sense. The Kimaris I have no idea and I have some suspicions about Vidar, but I'll field that to someone else. And spin-off manga are really unreliable when it comes to in-show canon. While it's possible that the original founders could have piloted the gundam frames without using the AV system, why would they? When you're up against AI mobile armors that are stuck on the "human extinction" setting, why wouldn't you use the AV system, created to maximize piloting ability, in the suits made specifically for dealing with the MA? They needed to go all out just to have a chance.
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Dec 15, 2016 16:42
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