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My experience with Chaos was watching a literal stream of Empire agents come running up from somewhere unrevealed to damage my armies over and over at a rate faster than I could replenish them. Also my own agent had a 20% chance to do anything back to them. Whee!
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Dec 14, 2016 21:25
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Jamwad Hilder posted:you can ambush stance right outside the city and fight the invaders with your tiny stack + garrison troops That sounds like a pretty good idea, maybe I'll try it at the start of a campaign.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:38
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WoC is probably my third favourite campaign after the last two DLC added two really great ones but I definitely think they have a thematic problem. To me, they need to change how chaos interacts with chaos-heavy regions for WoC. +leadership and a very small amount of +replenishment means next to nothing for them since their units already have great leadership and their replenishment is so bad that you're re-recruiting even with a full 10% bonus to it. Combined with legendary AI ignoring 80% of attrition damage I just don't care about any followers, weapons, buildings or general tree stuff that adds +chaos to a region. Thematically, that is terrible. You should want to spread chaos as WoC! Their tech, general and hero trees are built around cheap recruitment so they clearly want you to play them by re-recruiting entire stacks at rank 9. This means that adding more replenishment to chaos heavy regions is probably not the way to fix it. Their units are already really good and they are the 'final boss' for a lot of the other races so you probably don't want to buff their defense or anything that would make them more of a chore in chaos heavy regions either. This would also include something like further reducing vigor loss, unless there's a cap on it and it wouldn't stack with the general tree. Instead, I think the best fix would be to increase their reinforcement range and vision in chaos heavy regions. If chaos heavy regions allowed them to increase their reinforcement range to an extent that avoids attrition it would incentivize spreading chaos. On offense the attrition really never mattered, but defensively this would make watching over new stacks much easier. Same for the increased campaign line of sight as it frees up your heroes.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:53
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Instead of handicapping the player on harder difficulties by nerfing the AIs attrition they should just have it adapt better at harder difficulties. So in easy/medium they take the brunt of it and you can really cripple enemy armies and public order but on harder difficulties they'll invest in attrition reduction hero skills and corruption mitigating buildings. It's still decent to spread the corruption in that case though because you're forcing the AI to invest in sub optimal combat skills or bogging him down by forcing him to use movement stances to avoid attrition. I mean, if it were more effective then Vampiric corruption would be a lot more useful for weakening allies without losing diplomatic standing so you can backstab them once they've served their purpose and are significantly crippled via vampire riots. Panfilo fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 22:01
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Arcsquad12 posted:Reminder that Chaos still sucks to play as and are just as unfun to fight as well. They really got them down perfectly from tabletop.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:02
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Night10194 posted:They really got them down perfectly from tabletop.  Personally, Id rate the campaigns as Empire > Greenskins > VC=Dwarves.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:08
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VC is all about making everything spooky and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:39
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Thats true, and you're right. Sitting here at 97% done for an hour.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:47
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VCs are actually the most relaxing campaign to play in the game because of how easy they are. You don't care about losses at all, your lords are so powerful that you can win fights with entire stacks full of crap troops with a tiny bit of elite seasoning, Raise Dead means you can recruit entire armies to respond to emergencies instantly with no forethought, and even if you suck at expanding a properly set up united Sylvania is one of the strongest economic centers in the entire game and can easily sustain multiple high quality stacks even with no other territory. It's really hard to lose.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:51
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Decus posted:WoC is probably my third favourite campaign after the last two DLC added two really great ones but I definitely think they have a thematic problem. To me, they need to change how chaos interacts with chaos-heavy regions for WoC. +leadership and a very small amount of +replenishment means next to nothing for them since their units already have great leadership and their replenishment is so bad that you're re-recruiting even with a full 10% bonus to it. Combined with legendary AI ignoring 80% of attrition damage I just don't care about any followers, weapons, buildings or general tree stuff that adds +chaos to a region. Thematically, that is terrible. You should want to spread chaos as WoC! I mean, if you are able to catch them at the source in Kislev and you have a lord that has both lightning strike and +ambush chances, that army can basically solo the entire chaos invasion. I did it with papa vlad as Vampire Counts. I didn't really intend to be in Kislev by the time the chaos armies started trickling in, but Kislev got so thoroughly poo poo-house rocked when the norse hit that I just kind of happened into the ruins of their cities on a lark. I kind of figured on Chaos steamrolling me there so I built those cities to be has obnoxious a speed bump as possible and walled everything up. When the main WoC armies started popping, I just took papa vlad, parked him in that pass between Kislev and Bearsongling camp, and systematically ambushed and lightning striked ever army that came at me. I wound up using 2-3 banshees in the area as well to do targeted assassinations on any agents that wandered in as well as hindering the clusters of stacks so they staggered in on different turns. The moment the bird beast fell over dead I immediately got my long victory.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:51
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Don't tabletop WoC have some demons outside of, I guess, Spawn and Forsaken? I know Daemons are their own army but the game should have really pulled from the more monstrous side of things.
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Dec 14, 2016 23:00
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Mordja posted:Don't tabletop WoC have some demons outside of, I guess, Spawn and Forsaken? I know Daemons are their own army but the game should have really pulled from the more monstrous side of things. They have some monsters and I think they could still get daemon princes but most of the actual daemon stuff is separate. I imagine that like the Jabberslythe for Beastmen, it was a bunch more work for not much more benefit. Suspect there'll be a Monsters DLC at some point, or one of the expansions will have new stuff like that in.
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Dec 14, 2016 23:05
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Panfilo posted:Instead of handicapping the player on harder difficulties by nerfing the AIs attrition they should just have it adapt better at harder difficulties. So in easy/medium they take the brunt of it and you can really cripple enemy armies and public order but on harder difficulties they'll invest in attrition reduction hero skills and corruption mitigating buildings. It's still decent to spread the corruption in that case though because you're forcing the AI to invest in sub optimal combat skills or bogging him down by forcing him to use movement stances to avoid attrition. You're expecting way too much of CA. I remember that in Empire, on release, the AI didn't know how to load soldiers on ships. The AI could not transport armies between landmasses in a game about imperialism. Their economy was also even less rooted in reality than in this one, so even though that game made a big deal out of putting raidable econ buildings and ports outside of cities, you could burn it all to the ground without having any discernible impact on the ability of their one city to field 2-3 full stacks.
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Dec 14, 2016 23:05
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Mordja posted:Don't tabletop WoC have some demons outside of, I guess, Spawn and Forsaken? I know Daemons are their own army but the game should have really pulled from the more monstrous side of things. They've got the weird beasts pulling their chariots and Dragon Shoggoths. Plus hosed up chaos trolls and giants. Really the issue is there are like 6 chaos armies and WoC are supposed to be the 'cool 8 ft. tall dudes with spiky black armor' faction mostly.
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Dec 14, 2016 23:06
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DeathSandwich posted:I mean, if you are able to catch them at the source in Kislev and you have a lord that has both lightning strike and +ambush chances, that army can basically solo the entire chaos invasion. I did it with papa vlad as Vampire Counts. I didn't really intend to be in Kislev by the time the chaos armies started trickling in, but Kislev got so thoroughly poo poo-house rocked when the norse hit that I just kind of happened into the ruins of their cities on a lark. I kind of figured on Chaos steamrolling me there so I built those cities to be has obnoxious a speed bump as possible and walled everything up. When the main WoC armies started popping, I just took papa vlad, parked him in that pass between Kislev and Bearsongling camp, and systematically ambushed and lightning striked ever army that came at me. I wound up using 2-3 banshees in the area as well to do targeted assassinations on any agents that wandered in as well as hindering the clusters of stacks so they staggered in on different turns. The moment the bird beast fell over dead I immediately got my long victory. Yeah, Lightning Strike or using agents to stagger their formation destroys them and you can just spawn camp. But, to me, that's another issue entirely. LS in general could use a look, either moving it further into the blue trees for most factions like welves or making it a % chance at working like ambush with ambush detection skills also lowering the chance.
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Dec 14, 2016 23:38
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DeathSandwich posted:When you declare war on wood elfs just hide your army in ambush stance. They'll come start poo poo with your city, where you spring out, slaughter them to a man, and pick a fight with their garrison the next turn. I just tried this and they responded by turning around and burning the Oak of Ages... wtf?
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Dec 14, 2016 23:42
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If they can't have it NO ONE can.
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Dec 14, 2016 23:50
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Avasculous posted:You're expecting way too much of CA. My favorite Empire memory will be walking cavalry through some of my own troops and watching as the cavalry attacked and killed them.
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Dec 14, 2016 23:54
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sucks to your rear end-mar posted:I just tried this and they responded by turning around and burning the Oak of Ages... wtf? Did you fight the battle out or autoresolve? Because the Oak map is probably the easiest map in the game to defend, including walled cities, and the garrison should be enough to win against anything the AI can throw at it in the early game. The cliffs in your deployment area create great chokepoints and safe zones with good fields of fire for your archers. Even better is the land bridge leading up to the tree behind your deployment zone. Stack all your melee guys on top of each other across the front, put your archers behind them, and go make a coffee while you win.
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Dec 14, 2016 23:56
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Wafflecopper posted:Did you fight the battle out or autoresolve? Because the Oak map is probably the easiest map in the game to defend, including walled cities, and the garrison should be enough to win against anything the AI can throw at it in the early game. The cliffs in your deployment area create great chokepoints and safe zones with good fields of fire for your archers. Even better is the land bridge leading up to the tree behind your deployment zone. Stack all your melee guys on top of each other across the front, put your archers behind them, and go make a coffee while you win. It was turn one and the garrison was at half strength. Not really complaining it was just unexpected.
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Dec 15, 2016 00:12
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Carcer posted:My favorite Empire memory will be walking cavalry through some of my own troops and watching as the cavalry attacked and killed them. Empire was kind of a low point for the series, to be fair, though that and Rome II have put me off buying TW titles at launch.
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Dec 15, 2016 00:25
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Wildwood Rangers buff is pretty good but Asrai Spears are still best bang for your buck. They made the amazing Waystalker even better. This guy is so much fun to play because he's basically a ninja. It's so much fun handling this little eco-terrorist, decimating units, and then melting back into the forest/terrain when there's too much heat on him, and then doing that all over again. Can also also use him in a pinch as a very effective Hammer to the Anvil. Play him exactly as Legolas in the films and you'll have a great time.
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Dec 15, 2016 00:30
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So do you think they'll follow a similar formula with the new games a la the Chaos invasion? I would hope they don't just have Chaos invade from the north of Naggoroth, replacing Archaon with Valkia. The Skaven could pull an End Times and blow up Morrslieb, with the practical effects of increased Skaven armies and I dunno, maybe severe attrition even in cities. Or it could be a race against time to stop said event. As for the second proposed expansion, there's always Nagash.
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Dec 15, 2016 00:37
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Making artillery campers rage-quit:
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Dec 15, 2016 00:46
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theDOWmustflow posted:Play him exactly as Legolas in the films and you'll have a great time. DO NOT make friends with dwarfs.
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Dec 15, 2016 00:49
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WoC are fun to me but definitely a lot more challenging than Beastmen because they can't ninja their way out of problem. I don't think I can win without save scumming because you have no way of protecting yourself if you happen to move into the wrong spot and get agent spammed from all directions and every stack beelines for you. But I super dee duper love Mr. Handsome and Angry centaur guy. Plus hellcannons.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:04
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Mukip posted:Making artillery campers rage-quit: Wait, was that multiplayer? Guess he should have brought some Gyrocopters. 
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Dec 15, 2016 01:06
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Yes it's multi, Gyros would be bad because Waywatchers are armour-piercing. Most have better builds than that guy. People keep choosing Dwarfs against Welves because they want that sweet Quarreler/artillery doom fort, with up to 6 Quarrelers and 3 arty pieces in the same army at once. But then they get guerilla'ed to hell and back. Those dawi have seen some poo poo by now. Wood Elves are 
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Dec 15, 2016 01:14
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sassassin posted:DO NOT make friends with dwarfs. Or make friends with the dwarves and swim in an endless sea of sweet, sweet Amber.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:35
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Mukip posted:Making artillery campers rage-quit: Please tell me you have this replay
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Dec 15, 2016 01:39
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Sure: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxL-q9Tcsh-aejBkSUtpbk1zQXM/view?usp=sharing You can see that the archery bonus for being in a wood is actually really great as long as you are having them sit right on the edge.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:47
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I love playing the Wood Elves because you actually have to use the battle tactics and strategies you'd expect of fragile tree-dwelling nature-worshipping elves. If you're trying to rush Dawi across open ground or trade arrows/bullets, yes you're going to get crushed. But if you stick to the trees, exploit the terrain, exploit Vanguard deployment, and capitalize on your speed and stealth advantages, you will have a grand time running circles around enemy armies. Sieges are a pretty bloody affair for W. Elves though, but that just adds to their balance.
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Dec 15, 2016 02:05
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I think I'll just go ahead and auto resolve most fights against wood elf AI, once I've proven that I can beat them with a given army cause fighting against them is so goddamn grueling. Which is good but goddamn I don't think I want to do 20 fights against them in a campaign. Bret FLC is gonna mean rushing the Wood Elves or being besties with them, holy hell.
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Dec 15, 2016 02:14
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Couldn't Dwarves use their own rangers to counter sneaky elves? The rangers have shields and decent melee defense which seems well suited for this role, and they have stalk as well. Quarrelers are good, but I imagine rangers and bolt throwers are good vs elves as well.
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Dec 15, 2016 02:19
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Mordja posted:Don't tabletop WoC have some demons outside of, I guess, Spawn and Forsaken? I know Daemons are their own army but the game should have really pulled from the more monstrous side of things. Which, if I'm understanding the CA press release, means that there'll be a full demon DLC at some point. Presumably to do with the big Lord of Change doomstack that chaos warriors get right now.
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Dec 15, 2016 03:54
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Finished up the WE mini-campaign. - Agree that early on, WE are pretty weak, but by the end a few units of level 9 wardancers could rout an entire stack of beastmen. - I don't mind Amber for Tier 5 units, but Amber for Tier 3 units like Treekin is BS. - Importance of terrain on battlemaps for the elves is great - just need more variety. - Massif Orcal and Orquemont are too great a names to be hidden away on the mini campaign map and need to be on the big map. - Still think King and the Warlord is my favourite DLC - but this would definitely be no. 2.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:12
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Can confirm that Kahzrak's Beastmen start is a massive pain in the rear end now, since before you are even finished with Estalia, the Wood Elves have obliterated half of Bretonnia and then send three stacks full of Eternal Guard and Waywatchers to ruin your day.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:40
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Yeah, I think AI welves are just crazy in general. Not sure what their autoresolves look like but I would guess they have extra skirmish phases or something propelling them. Just finished another WoC campaign wherein my only ally was the welves and they pretty much wrapped up bret/empire for me while I focused on the dwarves/vampires. Meanwhile, AI beastmen were repeatedly getting wiped within turns of the "they've come back!" announcement.
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Dec 15, 2016 05:36
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Decus posted:Yeah, I think AI welves are just crazy in general. Not sure what their autoresolves look like but I would guess they have extra skirmish phases or something propelling them. Just finished another WoC campaign wherein my only ally was the welves and they pretty much wrapped up bret/empire for me while I focused on the dwarves/vampires. Meanwhile, AI beastmen were repeatedly getting wiped within turns of the "they've come back!" announcement. This is me right now. VC are ranked #1 and keep trying to bribe me to break my nonagg with WElves and there's not enough money in the world to make me want to face that poo poo. I don't even know what race I'd *want* to take against AI WElves. Dwarves? I've been itching for another Grombrindal campaign.
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Dec 15, 2016 06:13
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:They did for a long time, but demons got split off into their own book at some point around the (?) 7th (?) edition. 6th ed had Beasts/Daemons/Warriors of Chaos which were separate books but you could do some mixing and matching, then in 7th ed you had separate books with no mixing allowed. Daemons were bent as a nine bob note in that edition, incidentally.
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Dec 15, 2016 08:09
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