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Speaking as someone who has beaten Bionic Dues several times, I'd say this review covers all the major flaws, but is perhaps a bit too strident in its tone. For my money, the biggest issue with Bionic Dues is the profusion of item slots on the exos. The limited ammo and rocket-tag nature of combat are things you can learn to cope with once you've realized how things work, which shouldn't take too long since you can see what every bot is armed with. Compare the rocket launcher on your average enemy mook to your puny HP total and you'll get the message pretty quick. Even if you die the game's not remotely over, you just lose some time. But since the game is a rocket-tag game with limited ammo, you need to be able to set up your gear to maximize damage, range, and ammo count. But every weapon has multiple upgrade slots you can put items into, there's tons of other modifiers (some of which are potentially useful, don't get me wrong), and there's no real useful way to sort through your inventory. The not-funny writing, well, you can ignore that, and you can even turn it off, in fact, which is good because it takes a ton of space in the UI otherwise. The consoles...you can activate those only after you've cleared the level, which is dumb but at least you learn what they do that way. I do think the consoles are poorly-implemented. I guess my take on Bionic Dues is that it's a stealth game in the "kill everything without getting noticed" sense, so if you're into that kind of thing then it's not an awful play. There's some interesting tactical puzzles on offer, with multiple possible approaches depending on how you decide to build your exos.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:57
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madjackmcmad posted:I use gooncam all the time for gif making. Like this one:  poor heroes 
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Dec 14, 2016 23:11
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madjackmcmad posted:I use gooncam all the time for gif making. Like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slkN176imhY COMMENCE THE JIGGLIN'
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Dec 14, 2016 23:45
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John Lee posted:Except for AI War, right? Right? I'm too dumb for AI War, but I recall that the UI in that felt just as unpolished as the rest of their games. I should have been clearer, when I say "unfinished" I'm referring to the user experience stuff that tends to come late in development, not the actual mechanics. TooMuchAbstraction posted:I guess my take on Bionic Dues is that it's a stealth game in the "kill everything without getting noticed" sense, so if you're into that kind of thing then it's not an awful play. There's some interesting tactical puzzles on offer, with multiple possible approaches depending on how you decide to build your exos. If the game was posed like that I might be more forgiving, but the default exos include Assault and Siege classes which sound like things that should not die in one hit. It feels fundamentally imbalanced until you learn that you're not actually supposed to get into shootouts with like 90% of your enemies, in a game where your starting weapons are mostly short-ranged and your stealth points are incredibly limited. I certainly appreciate that there's a deep, tactical game in there somewhere but the fact that it's so obfuscated is worthy of criticism, and for my part it's just no fun to find.
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Dec 15, 2016 00:16
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Too Shy Guy posted:If the game was posed like that I might be more forgiving, but the default exos include Assault and Siege classes which sound like things that should not die in one hit. It feels fundamentally imbalanced until you learn that you're not actually supposed to get into shootouts with like 90% of your enemies, in a game where your starting weapons are mostly short-ranged and your stealth points are incredibly limited. I certainly appreciate that there's a deep, tactical game in there somewhere but the fact that it's so obfuscated is worthy of criticism, and for my part it's just no fun to find.
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Dec 15, 2016 00:25
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Oh yeah, this isn't an argument, I'm just explaining my position a bit better. Like you said I was super hard on the game, possibly too much, so I think it's worth expanding on why. 
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Dec 15, 2016 00:37
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FWIW, I am lovely at roguelikes and I quite enjoy taking Bionic Dues out for a spin occasionally on a low difficulty level and playing through a game in a couple of hours. Mostly as a distraction mind you...
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Dec 15, 2016 02:04
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I didn't like Bionic Dues, it felt clunky and counter-intuitive and I feel like everything I did like about it, I can just get from Cogmind now.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:37
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I love Arcen like a distant cousin that everyone avoids at the reunion, but Bionic Dues definitely felt unfinished. Like, I had to fight for my fun, rather than discover it in its trials, if that makes sense. Still fire it up now and then for a quick robot tactical chess puzzle or two.
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Dec 15, 2016 05:02
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Have the spreadsheet at the level where I think it's up to date - please let me know if I missed anyone! (And megane, since your screenshot wasn't for Rogue Agent, I didn't know - is it something you started for the contest, or an older idea?)
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Dec 15, 2016 05:25
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Too Shy Guy posted:I'm too dumb for AI War, but I recall that the UI in that felt just as unpolished as the rest of their games. I should have been clearer, when I say "unfinished" I'm referring to the user experience stuff that tends to come late in development, not the actual mechanics.
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Dec 15, 2016 05:38
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For the second time, isn't it? First shot had a much higher ask. Anyway, still end of semester crunch time here so this barely different from nothing and obviously not a real entry in contest part 2, I just want hito to know that the followup did succeed in getting me from actually nothing to, like, two steps past nothing accomplished. Unity tutorial in progress!  Lots of grand ideas that are starting to look much simpler and more elegant than I'd expected which has me feeling pretty jazzed about this whole thing, but I'm sure will be balanced soon by some simple ideas that turn out to be completely impossible and eat my computer. If only days were, like, an extra seven hours long.
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Dec 15, 2016 05:57
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John Lee posted:Except for AI War, right? Right? AI war is unironically a good game, easily arcen's best, but that description is still pretty accurate.
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Dec 15, 2016 07:10
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hito posted:(And megane, since your screenshot wasn't for Rogue Agent, I didn't know - is it something you started for the contest, or an older idea?) Well, I did the code for the lighting a while back and decided to use it for this, but everything else is new. Right now I'm calling it Penumbra but hopefully I'll come up with a better name eventually. The main idea is that you can't fight anything, so instead you have to sneak around and use things like darkness, tactical movement abilities, and items to avoid capture. Obviously lots of games, roguelike and otherwise, have stealth, but I find it feels sort of hollow when just murdering everyone (or knocking them out or whatever) is so much more effective. Or when stealth is just a way to murder everyone. Of course people do full-stealth runs of those games, but there's a difference between "you're expected to use X, but can voluntarily choose not to" and "the game is designed around you not having X." Right now guards won't come after you if you're in the dark, and you can spend stamina to swap places with enemies or to make moves without time passing. No items yet. It keeps track of what floor you're on, and lower floors spawn more dudes, but there's no way to win; the only thing you can do is die. Things I want to implement: - Dungeon generation, of course. At some point I guess there should be a way to win or something. - Items. The plan is that you have a very sharply limited inventory, maybe just 3-6 things. There are consumables, but for "equipment" you just get accessories that either have a passive effect as long as you carry them or can be used X times per floor. Maybe valuables for you to steal purely for score. - Enemies should have alert levels a la MGS. If you see your silhouette or hear something they'll come investigate; if they see you in bright light they'll shout for help and chase after you until you ditch them somehow. - Speaking of which: noise. I'll probably just have it be a set radius instead of worrying about walls or whatever. - Guards (and the player) should be able to carry lanterns; that means light sources that move so I'll have to figure out how to do that. - Related to that, more terrain. Doors, fences, bushes, curtains, water, windows that let in ambient light from outside the building. Stuff that interacts interestingly with light and LoS. - Other enemies: dogs (which can detect you by smell), some sort of sneaky enemy that hangs out in the darkness, archers, maybe some sort of big heavy dude - More "moves" for the player to do in general. Maybe you can press against a wall to hide more effectively or something. Swapping could be replaced by like... a shove or something perhaps. - I have no idea how to implement it but it'd be sweet if you could peek around corners. - Right now if you get grabbed (by standing next to an enemy and not immediately moving away) you have to spend stamina to break free and then you can move away. This isn't excellent so I'll probably change it somehow. Somebody suggested it could just straight up game-over you. Suggestions are welcome of course. Anyway, here's what I've currently got and a list of stuff I've implemented if anybody wants to take a look. e: Here's a gif of me nearly dying on the first floor :Y 
megane fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Dec 15, 2016 |
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Dec 15, 2016 07:22
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Irony.or.Death posted:For the second time, isn't it? First shot had a much higher ask. Yeah and the first ask had a ridiculously specific number too because they were able to calculate how much they needed to within a hundred dollars.
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Dec 15, 2016 07:53
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Haven't really gotten to any of the goofy robot stuff but I have tons of code for the procedural Daggerfall-ish game I've been poking at for a while so it wasn't hard to retrofit it for a more proper RL (turn based, grid movement, bump combat, etc). Kept the first person view and it looks like Stonekeep now with the 90s model to sprite stuff.  In first person really shows how much quicker the RL bump combat pace is then a normal crawler. Has anyone done a first person more traditional RL than something like Delver? With a minimap you can still keep an eye on the tactical.
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Dec 15, 2016 12:46
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netcat posted:
IronicDongz posted:I may have gone a bit too far It's a broken rear end game but 48 hours doesn't include time for balance. Thanks for making a half hour video of it though! megane posted:Anyway, here's what I've currently got and a list of stuff I've implemented if anybody wants to take a look. Easily explained by telling the player the guards are all wearing Kirk's razor armor from Dark Souls with shoulder pads made of koopa shells. FuzzySlippers posted:In first person really shows how much quicker the RL bump combat pace is then a normal crawler. Has anyone done a first person more traditional RL than something like Delver? With a minimap you can still keep an eye on the tactical.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Hack
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Dec 15, 2016 13:16
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Does anyone know any roguelikes/lites that use squad based, real time combat, like Baldur's Gate/Pillars of Eternity? I've just started building one, and would like to see how others handle it.
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Dec 15, 2016 13:36
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madjackmcmad posted:Holy poo poo 10x
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Dec 15, 2016 14:50
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Speaking of, Dungeon Mercenary with a solid new update absorbing some further Brogue staples while also putting their own spin onto things in addition: http://www.schplaf.org/hgames/ And Demon bringing the intrigue with "Interactables and Relic Wraiths" after quite a bit of time and effort thrown at it: http://demon.ferretdev.org/devblog/1211-dawn-of-the-dead/
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Dec 15, 2016 14:53
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madjackmcmad posted:This is awesome. The stamina based gameplay seems like it would be fun to work with. Based on your doc, when you spend 2 stam to shove past a guard, they'll automatically grab you next turn, since they were prepping for it on the turn you ended next to them to begin the shove. I tested this out in game and it seemed like guardswapping is a guaranteed 4 stam loss. 2 for the swap, +1 for doing anything next to a guard, and then +1 when you leave because you have to break the grapple.
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Dec 15, 2016 15:15
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megane posted:Yeah, the little document doesn't explain it well at all, haha. Swapping actually does prevent them from grabbing you, you just end up still next to them so it's 1 stamina to step away on the other side. The whole swap mechanic is kinda slapdash though; swapping places is cool but my implementation is extremely mediocre. I still ended up going from 7 to 3 stam on a swap action. Maybe I am misremembering. Anyway, I think the mechanic is sweet, it turns every encounter situation into something where you have to correctly evaluate if your X points can accomplish the Y moves you think you'll need to get the job done. I mean, I love dice and rollin 'em all day, but I completely dig how RNG plays no part here.
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Dec 15, 2016 18:07
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madjackmcmad posted:I use gooncam all the time for gif making. Like this one: This looks rad as hell. Gonna go play this later when I get home. On that note was there a Ludum Dare thread somewhere on this forum? We made a game for the Ludum Dare as well (although not a roguelike), I'd probably post it there.
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Dec 15, 2016 18:13
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FuzzySlippers posted:Haven't really gotten to any of the goofy robot stuff but I have tons of code for the procedural Daggerfall-ish game I've been poking at for a while so it wasn't hard to retrofit it for a more proper RL (turn based, grid movement, bump combat, etc). Kept the first person view and it looks like Stonekeep now with the 90s model to sprite stuff. Really liking that. Loving the exasperated Cyclops. 
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Dec 15, 2016 18:38
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FuzzySlippers posted:Haven't really gotten to any of the goofy robot stuff but I have tons of code for the procedural Daggerfall-ish game I've been poking at for a while so it wasn't hard to retrofit it for a more proper RL (turn based, grid movement, bump combat, etc). Kept the first person view and it looks like Stonekeep now with the 90s model to sprite stuff. This looks great! I'm debating about using some first-person for exploring underwater... Although I also thought maybe first-person for minisubs (you would only see out the front porthole) and third-person for diving (more bodily/situational awareness)?
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Dec 15, 2016 19:24
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FuzzySlippers posted:Haven't really gotten to any of the goofy robot stuff but I have tons of code for the procedural Daggerfall-ish game I've been poking at for a while so it wasn't hard to retrofit it for a more proper RL (turn based, grid movement, bump combat, etc). Kept the first person view and it looks like Stonekeep now with the 90s model to sprite stuff. this looks loving amazing and I would give you money for a full version game of this
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Dec 15, 2016 20:01
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I've been hammering in some basic player controls for Tactical Corridor Assault. Nothing to show for it yet, but here's some thoughts I had while implementing pathfinding, and what's different about it in this game: In a traditional roguelike when monsters chase down the player, they choose the fastest path they can. When there are multiple equally fast paths, it usually doesn't matter that much to the player which one the monsters pick. The player is probably backing into a corridor anyway, to control the situation. What I have in mind with Tactical Corridor Assault is something more of a puzzle game, where every turn is precious. I don't want the player to hole up in a corner to clear the corridor of all danger, and then pick up all the loot at their leisure. I want them on a mad dash towards the other end, grabbing what they can on the way. Each turn lost might mean less time to pick up loot and get a higher score. One of the design ideas I laid down in my proposal of this game, was minimum amount of randomness and hidden information. Pathfinding algorithms aren't random, but they're obtuse to the player. If a monster has two equal options around an obstacle, which way will it go? I can't have players taking 50/50 guesses in a game like this, it'd be antithetical to the whole idea. What I thought up is to have the chasing enemies be defined by how they chase you. Two simple enemy ideas: The Clockwise Goblin, and his partner, the Widdershins Goblin. When Clockwise has to choose from multiple paths to take, he will always pick the first one in the clockwise order. Widdershins will pick the anti-clockwise option. When the enemies are very predictable, it should be possible for the player to plan their run without guessing games.
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Dec 15, 2016 20:27
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StoryTime posted:One of the design ideas I laid down in my proposal of this game, was minimum amount of randomness and hidden information. Pathfinding algorithms aren't random, but they're obtuse to the player. If a monster has two equal options around an obstacle, which way will it go? I can't have players taking 50/50 guesses in a game like this, it'd be antithetical to the whole idea. 
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Dec 15, 2016 20:32
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Yep, having monsters that have different movement patterns is a good way to differentiate and create interesting situations without relying on randomness. I'd say the two standout examples of this are MicRogue (almost every monster has different movement rules) and Necrodancer.
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Dec 15, 2016 20:34
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I forget, anyone making a survival roguelike for the month? If you are, don't forget about this little number. On the fifth day of Roguemas, the RNG gave to me... FIVE ANGRY BEES Four junky exos Three jingling coins Two blighted crabs And a feisty little deity    There's a definite element of horror to survival games. It could be the fear of a wild animal tearing apart your fragile corner of civilization, or simply the sickening realization that you planned poorly and you're going to starve to death. Don't Starve capitalizes on both of these fears and more, pitting you against a stretch of nature that isn't just inhospitable, but actively seeks your destruction. And if that sounds stressful and downright painful at times, you should have a good idea of what you're getting into. Don't Starve starts you off with a spread of characters to choose from (with more to unlock) and world customization options, and then deposits you into an isometric wilderness. Just about every object in the world is interactable and will become important to your survival and prosperity, but the initial steps are simple enough. Flint and twigs make tools for chopping wood and mining stone, which can be refined further into building materials that unlock new equipment options. You'll be setting up fully-featured camps but be aware that cabins and castles aren't in the cards... the best you can do is walls and some simple flooring. This feeling of permanent exposure is important to the atmosphere, because you are never fully safe in this cruel world. There's a pervasive sense of ancient evil to everything, from the twisted trees to the dead-eyed spiders to the writhing tentacles beneath the marshes. One key to survival is light, because without it the pitch-black night is certain death. I'm not just waxing poetic here, if you get caught in the dark for more than about five seconds, you die. But even a roaring campfire is no guarantee that marauding wolves, angry frogs, or far larger things won't end your life. Death is where the real tension of the game is, because death is permanent. No do-overs, no checkpoints, no reloads. When you die, that character and that world are gone. Now, permadeath has proven to work for short roguelikes but a game where you spend hours exploring a world and building a settlement is a whole different ballgame, and it's here that Don't Starve threatens to lose most of its audience. Dying in this game really, really, really sucks, because it's always from something perfectly avoidable, comes so quick, and wipes out literal hours of progress. So why beat your head against this game? Because as long as you DON'T die, it's an excellent survival simulator. You'll never reach a point where you're fully comfortable in the world, and there are always greater beasts and scarier places to overcome. Even the most basic materials remain relevant as your mastery over the land grows, and while you gain new ways to make gathering resources quick and painless, you still have survival tasks to complete. Eventually you'll be cultivating farms, researching artifacts, and preparing for harsh winters, all of which are involved and gratifying goals. You'll have to deal with some trial and error in finding the best ways to survive and use what you find, and that can mean some frustration as you learn to deal with food spoiling or beekeeping or other surprisingly lethal pastimes. But once you do there's a big, strange world to explore, and that's really only the beginning. There's a story mode hidden out there in the wilds that you'll only find once you master survival, and getting through THAT is its own grand adventure. Wrapped up as it is in charming hand-drawn graphics and rich sound design, there's plenty to keep you invested in Don't Starve. It's a game that asks for a lot of patience and understanding, but it's one of the few that really earn it, too.
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Dec 15, 2016 23:46
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Speaking as someone who unironically enjoys Angband (and thus whose opinions are inherently suspect  ), which is one of the longest roguelikes out there, there's a lot to be said for forcing the player to put something real and valuable (i.e. their time) on the line. You raise the stakes considerably when you say "I can take away all these things you've accomplished, everything you've worked for, if you gently caress up." By raising the stakes you can get the player more invested in the game. Decisions are more impactful when the player must risk something they value.Ideally you get that investment without requiring so much buildup, of course. One other way this is accomplished is to just have your game be very hard; then the player isn't risking their time so much as they are risking their accomplishment at having made it "this far". The first time you make it to the end of any hard roguelike you're probably feeling the adrenaline, even though the game is turn-based and even though this particular game might have only lasted a few hours. You've never made it this far, you don't know what's coming, screwing up means starting over, but you're so close to victory!
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Dec 16, 2016 00:06
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This thread gets more interesting by the minute this month - seeing all these in-progress roguelikes makes me all giddy.  Speaking of getting giddy and things in-progress, X-posting from the GameMaking thread: I just posted a new fancy shmancy trailer to announce the Early Access release date for our rogue-lite submarine game We Need to Go Deeper! A whole lot of you guys are in our beta, and if there's a month to jump back in, it'd be this one. We're already pulling our hair out in a scramble to get things ready for release, as January is when we're gonna start sending playable builds to press!  So any help we can get to ensure things are still stable would be swell.Anyway, check it out and spread the word if you can! We're trying to rebuild the hype momentum we lost by disappearing into the developer tunnel after first getting coverage 3 years ago. I'm sure most people have forgotten about us since. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KweMxLcL414 
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Dec 16, 2016 00:46
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Too Shy Guy posted:
I love Don't Starve for all the reasons listed there--the depth of the world, the unique aesthetics and sound, and the spooky mystery everywhere. That said, its default difficulty is kinda just too lethal. Fortunately, the devs added a lot of scalable options to give players some choice, and it's also got a large mod selection to further customize (or trivialize) the experience you want.
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Dec 16, 2016 01:04
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Hell yeah! I was just thinking of this game the other day. Would you happen to need more folks to run it through its paces?
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Dec 16, 2016 01:09
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Alehkhs posted:Hell yeah! I was just thinking of this game the other day. Hell yeah we do. If you have some chums who are up for it, PM me and I'll hook ya up with some keys. We're going through a Unity update switch right now which will undoubtedly cause some problems so we definitely need some fresh blood to run in there and mess with it.
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Dec 16, 2016 01:30
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Too Shy Guy posted:I forget, anyone making a survival roguelike for the month? If you are, don't forget about this little number.
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Dec 16, 2016 02:20
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madjackmcmad posted:Is the model to sprite stuff all happening on the fly? Tell me more! Also, to answer your question: Dungeon Hack is real time EoB tho I was thinking like completely turn based, etc etc. I do eventually want to make a grungy UI option like Dungeon Hack. I've done both baked and real time sprite conversions. I'm not sure if there is a more clever way to do real time but it was rendertextures with filters, low rez, animation clipping, and forcing facing. It looks pretty close but on a slower computer it would be kinda amusing how much performance hit you'd take with a lot of enemies on screen. Maybe that'd make it feel even more authentic? (wow look at that slowdown) In that picture it is baked as baked allows you to tweak the sprites and is certainly faster.
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Dec 16, 2016 03:14
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okay, contest leg two results! I'm going to give the main prize to megane. While technically the lighting code is pre-contest, I decided that I wouldn't have minded if someone has used that code from a library, so I was happy to let it count. Having something to download and a readme is great - get that feedback iterating as soon as possible! (I'm still in the midst of doing the ORK tutorial, so I'm envious you're already going.) Putting out a game before it's actually possible to win at all shows that you're actually focused on producing stuff, which is great. Contact me and let me know if you want the art or the gift card. (I hope you pick art. I don't want to spoil and say what it is, but it's one I nearly bought for myself.) [EDIT: also worth noting - you can choose between getting it 24x32 but not framed, or as a small 10x12 block that you don't need to frame, you just hang on the wall.] I also want to say that it was a close thing with MantlingTheWatcher - I liked how "lived in" your gif seemed, if that makes sense. It really felt like I was there PQAing it with you. And Guybro Dudeson wins the Spelunky random lottery! Let me know your steam account and I can send it your way.
hito fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Dec 16, 2016 |
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Dec 16, 2016 04:15
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Bert of the Forest posted:Hell yeah we do. If you have some chums who are up for it, PM me and I'll hook ya up with some keys. We're going through a Unity update switch right now which will undoubtedly cause some problems so we definitely need some fresh blood to run in there and mess with it. I would love to, but none of my chums were interested. If any goons need an extra hand to share their certain doom, I would be happy to help though!
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Dec 16, 2016 04:38
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I finally picked up Dungeonmans and I wish I'd done so earlier. I haven't gotten very far in at all but it's a ton of fun.
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Dec 16, 2016 04:52
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