foobardog posted:

To me personally, and the hardest thing to talk to most white people about is that yes, whiteness as a perhaps a concept is exactly terrible as gfsincere says.

There are obviously people with "white" skin who are not assholes or terrible people. But the basic idea of whiteness as normality or superiority is. It's strongly based in ideas that you can really trace back to the colonial nature of our country. Whiteness is an expectation of deference towards white people. It's tied in the idea it's more important to make white people feel safe than actually integrate and treat non-whites as humans in their own right.

And it is very much like the Not All Men thing. Obviously not all, but far too many, and far too many who are excused for their behavior.

This understanding of whiteness means very well there can be black people carrying water for it. He's right about that too, pick pretty much any black Republican. But my complaint is more that he seems to think that there exist these black people in white neighborhoods who some how managed to escape it. Maybe for a little bit, maybe as a child, but never always.

The fact it is so hard to talk about it is part of the sick abuse being perpetrated on black minds and bodies.

E: It's in the gaslighting telling you it's all in the distant past, when it happened to your father directly. It's in the thinly veiled ways it tries to hide as not being about race, but class or crimes committed. It's in the colorblind argument equivocating black people pointing out the bullshit with white supremacy. It's in the way the fear of cops is more important than the anger of black families losing their children.

Rush Limbo posted:

The thing is, though, that "whiteness" isn't really a designation of race, it's a designation of power, and who has it. I'm not white. I can pass as white though, and I've had to because otherwise things in life would be closed off to me, often for good. I can't really openly practice my culture because of this. Many of the things that pass for normal in white society are completely denied to me.

A good example is the whole genealogy trend. I will never, ever be able to make a family tree, because the documentation that is required to even start doesn't exist. The only thing I have to go on is an oral history, which isn't going to be around forever. Most of my ancestors, due to their culture and their status outside of white society, might as well have not existed. I will never get to learn about their lives, their achievements etc.

The white club also changes its boundaries quite a lot. See: Irish, Slavs etc.

They were not treated as white until they got political capital and then hey presto the door was open.

Squashing Machine posted:

Let's talk about the phrase, as gfsincere puts it, "white people are in fact that terrible." If that is a seriously acceptable way of talking about people, then we're really hosed.

Eej posted:

Squashing Machine posted:

Don't make blanket statements about people based on their race. This seems to be something we can all agree with, correct?

Eej posted:

Domestic Amuse posted:

#notall[add race here]

Squashing Machine posted:

I don't see how this is even a remotely disagreeable thing. Fight against white supremacy, don't say that white people are terrible. There's a colossal difference between the two, right?

Rush Limbo posted:

Part of white supremacy is that, in addition to all achievements of white people being shared by every white person, regardless of status, all negative aspects are not the responsibility of whiteness as a whole: It's a few bad apples, etc.

Of course this concept doesn't actually apply to anyone else. When a black person does something bad, it is reflective of their entire race. Likewise, when a black person achieves something, he's exceptional, not like all the others

Squashing Machine posted:

That seems like a tremendously narrow way to view this concept, and frankly, one designed to prop up your own idea of how these things work.

botany posted:

go away

Squashing Machine posted:

That seems like a tremendously narrow way to view this concept, and frankly, one designed to prop up your own idea of how these things work.

Edit: Sorry, let me explain myself. In effect, this is dodging the question. The implicit idea of my argument is to ask why is it not a racially deterministic thing to say "white people are terrible."

Squashing Machine posted:

Hello, white people aren't really that terrible.

Edit: Let me add something. I think you've been given a tin-pot dictatorship here, despite the fact that you are at best a crazy man who has been legitimized by people who don't want to anger you despite your disgusting views toward the mentally ill and others. You've questioned people's "blackness" because you think you're the only person who gets to determine what being "black" really means. Apparently, "blackness" is purely something you can use as a weapon against others that don't agree with you in even the most minor of ways. You're a bully, and you're alone.

Vanderdeath posted:

Imagine if you were bleeding profusely while stumbling into a hospital. Imagine that, in your desperation, you ask for help from the staff but you're only met with apathetic "oh dears" and the occasional "I never got stabbed so this must be a problem with your kind." I'm a bit frazzled at the moment but this is the best analogy I can think of at this late hour. I imagine you're a member of the ingroup attempting to discredit the outgroup's problems via concern trolling and tone policing and that's messed up.

Vanderdeath posted:

You're contributing to the problem a lot of non-white people have with discussing race and privilege in general: as soon as the concept of Whiteness is touched upon, someone immediately takes it as a personal affront and goes "not all white people." This isn't germane or conducive to the conversation. It's an attempt to invalidate the experiences of a marginalized populace.

negromancer posted:

Hey, I don't give a poo poo about your opinion, so you can kindly gently caress right off.

You're basically in here to silence opinions that you don't understand and don't know poo poo about because it threatens your identity and privilege. You're not welcome here. Take that "it's really the black people that are angry that are the real racists" bullshit back to whatever stormfront subforum you got it from.

Domestic Amuse posted:

Then that same someone tries to talk down to you about how being "divisive" about race isn't in your best interests, all while ignoring the things that actually are in your best interest to tackle.


There's a good reason I haven't bothered taking this guy off my ignore list.

Morby posted:

Tone policing is easy. Tackling white supremacy and potentially giving up privilege is hard. If we're gonna have real discussions about race and racism, white people are gonna have to put up with being uncomfortable. That's the reality.

Uncle Jam posted:

Yeah and you roll back to the base of the problem. The white privilege is that when the conversation becomes uncomfortable the white option to completely disengage from it and live their life out with no penalty exists. Never ever crossing the mind again, an inconvenience lower than ones shoe coming untied on a sunny day.

In a twisted way, at least people dealing angry retorts back out recognize that division exists.

Nevvy Z posted:

Sometimes they can even make the black people go away if they feel they aren't being sufficiently allowed to ignore the conversation. That's how this thread started.

Squashing Machine posted:

That seems like a tremendously narrow way to view this concept, and frankly, one designed to prop up your own idea of how these things work.

Edit: Sorry, let me explain myself. In effect, this is dodging the question. The implicit idea of my argument is to ask why is it not a racially deterministic thing to say "white people are terrible."

Jonas Albrecht posted:

So do you think, in order to stave off irrelevance, latinx's will be folded into the White Club?

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

Wtf is with this avatar? I can't even tell if this is from an actual negrotown poster or from someone who hates negrotown or what. But it sure was jarring to see first thing when I got into work this morning.

like all I can figure is that someone thinks mixed-race people aren't allowed itt, but if that's the case why did they make their point by harassing me?

Jonas Albrecht posted:

So do you think, in order to stave off irrelevance, latinx's will be folded into the White Club?

negromancer posted:

Mixed race, trans, all the same to some of these straight white guys since they see neither from their moms basement.

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

I PM'd FactsAreUseless because while I'm glad to take one on the chin if I make a lovely post, I feel like this one is just straight up harassing me based on my actual heritage and I'm feeling more and more upset about it as I sit here. Like some faceless, outside-the-thread racist, is calling me an Uncle Tom because I'm not the right kind of mixed-race for them I guess? Sorry my dad was pale and that passed on to me?

botany posted:

It's presumably Effectronica, at least that's the current theory.

Not a Step posted:

Its already happening. Although I don't think Latins were ever in danger of being irrelevant.

Panfilo posted:

I think they meant it the other way around. Whites are gradually becoming less significant of a majority, but counting Latinos as 'white' would reverse this. Young Latinos are going to be a major voting bloc in the next decade. Most of their parents who immigrated to the US did so when they themselves were young adults.

Panfilo posted:

I think they meant it the other way around. Whites are gradually becoming less significant of a majority, but counting Latinos as 'white' would reverse this. Young Latinos are going to be a major voting bloc in the next decade. Most of their parents who immigrated to the US did so when they themselves were young adults.

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

If that's true it explains all the cranky custom titles I got in the baseball thread too cuz they post there also.

Talmonis posted:

It feels like reflex. To hear "whites are terrible" and get defensive. To me, it feels just like my uncle saying "the blacks are criminals." I get that the difference is about power. But how is anyone who isn't both educated in the subject of privilege, and willing to instinctually swallow any kind of pride in who they are, or where they're from expected to just agree? It's not always trying to silence anyone, but honest irritation at someone being (to their eyes) racist at them, and seemingly blaming them and their race for it.

Morby posted:

I'd say that this person isn't really ready to truthfully engage with POC about white supremacy in that case. Look, beyond a certain point, I've just come to realize and understand that most white people will never get it and don't want to. Why would they? Things are working out just fine from where they sit! And it doesn't matter if we gently request or sing and peacefully march or if we silently take a knee, or if we riot. They just don't give a poo poo.