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It doesn't really matter how much a janitor, or anyone else, at BART makes. Either they're entitled to collectively bargain for their compensation, using all of the tools that entails, or they aren't. And if you think transit workers shouldn't be entitled to collectively bargain, using all the tools that entails, hey guess what, that's a conservative, anti-Union position. You can own that position or not, but you don't get to claim to be pro-Labor, except for when it inconveniences you. That's the definition of gently caress you, got mine attitudes. That aside: ~$80k (which is really more like what we're talking about, actually) is a solid living wage in the Bay Area, well above the average, but not outrageous. I have no qualms saying a janitor working 70 hours a week or something should be paid something approaching 50% of what a software engineer with a 4-year degree makes doing similar hours. And you can't really blame workers for doing a lot of overtime. Management can hire more employees, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. They could have every janitor in the system working no more than 40 hours a week, there's plenty of people who need jobs.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:58
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themrguy posted:We can be pretty economically liberal, if you put a tax increase on rich people on the ballot it will probably pass. Its easy to vote like that when you don't have skin in the game. Try getting the same people to pass a ballot measure that will benefit others but lower their property values.
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Dec 15, 2016 05:09
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fits my needs posted:Yeah, it's super cool that a BART janitor can strike and get paid six figures in overtime, but I'm a monster because I want to get to work and not lose my job. Maybe they should hire the appropriate number of workers so they don't have to pay all that overtime.
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Dec 15, 2016 06:44
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There was also the apocryphal story a few years back of the School Bus Driver Guy that made like 100k one year. By doing an ungodly amount of overtime. Everyone conveniently forgot about that bit when running the click bait stories. JANITOR GUY MAKES ALL THAT MONEY?! Well he literally has to clean up poo poo so maybe I'm happy with slightly less if it means I don't have to mop up bum piss or post-club handjob residue in my air conditioned cubicle?
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Dec 15, 2016 06:49
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Ron Jeremy posted:Maybe they should hire the appropriate number of workers so they don't have to pay all that overtime. There is a point below which it is cheaper to pay the OT than to go to the expense of hiring, training, and paying benefits for another employee. Assuming someone is willing to work extra and the long hours don't affect results of course.
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Dec 15, 2016 06:53
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Annual wages are deceptively high for people in many public sector positions because in addition to counting pension contributions and vacation they take the 'value' of the medical benefits. Simply put, seeing a figure of $125,000 in the paper for some BART janitor is mostly telling you what the guy costs BART, not what he earns from them. I also work in the public sector, with a decent union and people can gross $125,000 but to do it they have to work approximately 9 hours a day for the entire year, cash out all their vacation time and not miss a single day  These are not the kind of jobs where people can pull a breezy 40 hours and make that kind of money. For every one making a lot like in my example there are 100 others that would rather put in their 8 hours 5 days a week and have a life outside work.
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Dec 15, 2016 06:53
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withak posted:There is a point below which it is cheaper to pay the OT than to go to the expense of hiring, training, and paying benefits for another employee. Assuming someone is willing to work extra and the long hours don't affect results of course. Yeah I was going to mention this as well. Medical and retirement costs are per employee, so those expenses are rather fixed regardless of how much work is getting done. Paying overtime is often more cost effective especially when the workload fluctuates a lot. Hiring more janitors might be a cost sink if the demand tanks later on.
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Dec 15, 2016 06:57
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Proud Christian Mom posted:Its easy to vote like that when you don't have skin in the game. Try getting the same people to pass a ballot measure that will benefit others but lower their property values. This one always kills me, the only thing higher property values get you is higher taxes. Because what are you going to do when you sell? Buy something that's affected the same scale. I guess you can argue about taking loans against the house, but if the value difference is enough to make you take pause or inable to take out the amount you want, maybe you shouldn't be taking that much out?
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Dec 15, 2016 06:59
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Have you seen my apex seals? I seem to have lost them.
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Don't worry guys, part of Obama's plan was taxing "Cadillac" plans. The fact that many working-to-lower-middle-class people often chose jobs that offered "Cadillac" plans as part of their "two household incomes" because they offered unusually good benefits. For the "upwardly mobile but two incomes" they were also a good deal because, as pink collar jobs, they didn't pay well but had great benefits and reliable, steadily raising wages. But recent market innovations mean that we don't need that anymore.
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Dec 15, 2016 07:09
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fits my needs posted:Yeah, it's super cool that a BART janitor can strike and get paid six figures in overtime, but I'm a monster because I want to get to work and not lose my job. You're a pathetic shell of a person. Buy some empathy with your next paycheck.
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Dec 15, 2016 16:30
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withak posted:There is a point below which it is cheaper to pay the OT than to go to the expense of hiring, training, and paying benefits for another employee. Assuming someone is willing to work extra and the long hours don't affect results of course. Yeah the penalty of time and half or double time is supposed to counterweight this, but the cost of retirement and medical has blown way past this penalty. Which is why I wish the democrats has used the ACA to make the argument that universal health care could be a job creation engine by taking the burden of medical off the employer as a per employee cost and changed it into a tax based on revenue.
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Dec 15, 2016 18:45
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I love my state: http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/12/jerry-brown-california-climate-change-donald-trumpGovernor Moonbeam posted:"We've got the scientists, we've got the lawyers, and we're ready to fight," Brown said at the American Geophysical Union Conference in San Francisco. "We're ready to defend. California is no stranger to this fight."
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Dec 15, 2016 19:17
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paranoid randroid posted:how do you mean the "actual" working class Just that I know a lot of people making close to or just north of 6 figures in the Bay Area who consider themselves "middle class" because the high cost of living means they can't live like the millionaires and billionaires on the edges of their social graph. These people have next to no contact with, say, oil workers in Richmond or public school teachers in Sacramento (Their kids go to private schools, by and large) So it's hard to get them to sign off on actually re-distributive policies because they identify more with the owner class even if they sympathize, in theory, with the plight of the workers.
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Dec 15, 2016 20:13
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People in California do live in a bubble. We had a guy in this thread say he experienced the horrors of white flight when the white working class workers left Fremont to the tech workers. When it was explained to him that the situation in Fremont was actually the total opposite of what happened to the industrial cities in the rest of the US which rotted and became depressed slums and that Fremont is the total opposite of what everybody else means when they talk about white flight, he doubled down on his use of the term.
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Dec 15, 2016 21:09
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sounds more like that Bay Area tech people live in a bubble fortunately Bay Area tech people are not the majority demographic
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Dec 15, 2016 21:14
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california is like a bunch of different bubbles with varying degrees of overlap
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Dec 15, 2016 21:28
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incoherent posted:Guys, i'd like to pause the sceedcrafting to hit up some real rear end "bad poo poo". I think I touched on this before in a previous post, but I just saw an update on OCWeekly that gave the Orange County DA office a literal bitch slap from The California Court of Appeal. Feds are now investigating
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Dec 15, 2016 21:50
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silence_kit posted:People in California do live in a bubble. We had a guy in this thread say he experienced the horrors of white flight when the white working class workers left Fremont to the tech workers. When it was explained to him that the situation in Fremont was actually the total opposite of what happened to the industrial cities in the rest of the US which rotted and became depressed slums and that Fremont is the total opposite of what everybody else means when they talk about white flight, he doubled down on his use of the term. im sorry that you get triggered by nonwhites talking about racism but hey i guess that's just the playbook of NO WAR BUT CLASS WAR white leftists 1. what you're whining about is worse elsewhere and probably isn't actually racism so shut up and get back in line for the class revolution!!!! 2. stop playing the victim!!! stop hurting my fragile white fee fees!!!! paranoid randroid posted:sounds more like that Bay Area tech people live in a bubble also it's not like bay area techies could go to alum rock or a good chunk of hayward, or still even a few sections of fremont to come into contact with working class people, but i guess they don't count as working class since they're probably not white Jerry Manderbilt fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Dec 16, 2016 |
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Dec 15, 2016 23:59
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lancemantis posted:california is like a bunch of different bubbles with varying degrees of overlap Much Like Every Other State im not sure why California is considered some special thing that cannot possibly understand Real America
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Dec 16, 2016 00:01
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In Oceanside, they have opened up applications for the City Treasurer spot, an elected position that a dead guy won.
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Dec 16, 2016 00:20
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paranoid randroid posted:Much Like Every Other State Bitterness, mostly.
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Dec 16, 2016 00:26
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The Aardvark posted:In Oceanside, they have opened up applications for the City Treasurer spot, an elected position that a dead guy won. Kind of hosed up that they're using this as an opportunity to stealth turn an elected position into an appointed one, but I can't say I'm surprised at all. Nobody hates democracy more than a city council.
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Dec 16, 2016 01:14
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Baby Babbeh posted:Kind of hosed up that they're using this as an opportunity to stealth turn an elected position into an appointed one, but I can't say I'm surprised at all. Nobody hates democracy more than a city council. The most vocal council member about it is Jerry Kern, who probably still holds a grudge against the lady who ran for Treasurer as she was part of a recall election against him in 2009.
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Dec 16, 2016 01:15
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:im sorry that you get triggered by nonwhites talking about racism The reason why I dredged up your old posts was not because I was 'triggered' but because your old posts in the thread were a pretty good example of my point. Your earlier failure to understand the reason why white flight was bad (hint: white flight was not bad by virtue of white people leaving cities) and why Fremont, CA is the complete opposite of places like Gary, IN or East St. Louis, IL kind of revealed that you didn't really understand what it is like to live in other, less prosperous places in the US. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Dec 16, 2016 |
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Dec 16, 2016 02:16
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:im sorry that you get triggered by nonwhites talking about racism I missed this the first time around, so I'm confused: isn't Fremont pretty affluent? If working class people were forced out by richer people isn't that gentrification, regardless of race?
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Dec 16, 2016 09:39
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If I remember correctly, his (very flawed) argument was that rich Asian tech workers had displaced the original white working class population so there was "white flight". I don't remember all the details but I remember an icky feeling of "the only real racism is racism against white people" being the underlying thesis. That may have been from the subsequent pile-on thought because Hillbots were very primed at the time to call everybody racist. I don't have plat but someone who does should be able to post it.
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Dec 16, 2016 10:00
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I remember it going down the same way, it was pretty emblematic of how class got glossed over during the election by the DNC, and everyone who was negatively affected by the 2008 recession and never made it back just kinda got ignored. I also remember the weird racism angle.
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Dec 16, 2016 10:12
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quote:NO WAR BUT CLASS WAR At least one sentence in this thread makes sense.
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Dec 16, 2016 15:05
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Shbobdb posted:If I remember correctly, his (very flawed) argument was that rich Asian tech workers had displaced the original white working class population so there was "white flight". I don't remember all the details but I remember an icky feeling of "the only real racism is racism against white people" I have to admit that the only time I felt that was as a student at mission college where the only extra curricular group was a racial minority focused one and I was told I wasn't allowed to join since I was white. The school was majority minority and it was the only group to join.
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Dec 16, 2016 17:33
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I missed this the first time around, so I'm confused: isn't Fremont pretty affluent? If working class people were forced out by richer people isn't that gentrification, regardless of race? Not only is it pretty affluent, it's way more affluent than it was in the 80s; and there are still white people living in Fremont, just not the ones that worked at the GM/Toyota plant that shut down, as well as the other factories that used to be over there. And while companies like Tesla have started manufacturing in/near Fremont they don't employ nearly the numbers of workers as there used to be. None of which is to say that whites are never racist towards asians, but it doesn't explain Fremont's situation.
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Dec 16, 2016 18:38
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Ron Jeremy posted:I have to admit that the only time I felt that was as a student at mission college where the only extra curricular group was a racial minority focused one and I was told I wasn't allowed to join since I was white. The school was majority minority and it was the only group to join. Yep, that's what it felt like to be a minority for most of America's history.
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Dec 16, 2016 18:52
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If you are living in the coastal California bubble, you could look at Fremont and compare it to places like Palo Alto or Los Gatos, and conclude that it is a shanty town. However, once you step outside the bubble and compare it with the rest of the US, you'd see that actually Fremont is actually doing really well and is well above average economically.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:09
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Fremont looks and smells like poo poo.
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Dec 16, 2016 22:40
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The Wiggly Wizard posted:Fremont looks and smells like poo poo. EConomys running good then
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Dec 17, 2016 02:59
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The Wiggly Wizard posted:Fremont looks and smells like poo poo. Can't be as bad as Milpitas in that regard.
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Dec 17, 2016 03:04
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silence_kit posted:People in California do live in a bubble. We had a guy in this thread say he experienced the horrors of white flight when the white working class workers left Fremont to the tech workers. When it was explained to him that the situation in Fremont was actually the total opposite of what happened to the industrial cities in the rest of the US which rotted and became depressed slums and that Fremont is the total opposite of what everybody else means when they talk about white flight, he doubled down on his use of the term. Why are you bringing this poo poo up again? That dude was talking about the the fact that Fremont is now only 33% white, compared to 1960, when it was over 90% white. And much of that drop in white population happened to coincide with asian people (and a to much lesser extent, latino and black people) arriving in large numbers. At first the white population did keep growing after 1960, but was dropping as a percentage because the minority population was growing faster. But after 1990, the white population started dropping fast in terms of raw numbers too (which is when the asian population really started to explode) and is now only half of what it was then. The asian population was only 2% in 1960, compared to 20% in 1990, and 50%+ nowadays. That's why he called it white flight....because a bunch of white people fled the city while a bunch of minorities moved in. The problem is that your definition of white flight seems to be: "a bunch of white people leave because of minorities, and then the city also becomes a neglected, impoverished, semi-abandoned, crime-ridden hellhole". You think it's wrong to define it as "white flight", unless the city ends up like Gary, or Detroit, or St. Louis as a result. Rah! fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 03:56
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Or Oakland?
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Dec 17, 2016 04:06
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White flight is the opposite of gentrification. Fremont is not an example of white flight. It is an example of gentrification by Asian engineers.
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Dec 17, 2016 04:10
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But why specifically Asians when white people still make up a majority of that field?
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Dec 17, 2016 04:16
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Tarezax posted:But why specifically Asians when white people still make up a majority of that field? Because he was using the term white flight to complain about Asians coming in and displacing poor whites.
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Dec 17, 2016 04:20
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