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Eopia posted:So how much information should players have both in and out of combat? Should they know AC and NACs for their enemies, HP? Should they know the DCs for things they want to use skills for before they decide to roll? etc. Pharmaskittle posted:I'd say give them skill check DCs if they have time to examine it, but only a rough estimate if they, say, want to break down a door during combat, and never any enemy stats. Maybe a rough estimate for one enemy defense score if they have a pertinent knowledge skill and want to spend a move action to roll for it Since your concern is combat speed, just tell them everything. It super speeds things up if you know if you hit something or can determine that you have a much better chance to hit of you use a different type of attack, and that you don't need to blow your big attack on a minion or someone with only a few HP left.
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Dec 15, 2016 05:46
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There are a few powers that let you do things like add 4 to your defense after the attack is rolled, which aren't very useful if you don't know what the incoming roll IS, too.
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Dec 15, 2016 06:02
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I generally inform my players of what the enemy's stats are as soon as they've hit them, and I've also done just telling them what it is outright from the get-go.
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Dec 15, 2016 06:07
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It depends on how you play. We keep info to a minimum since we let the DMs be very adversarial in combat due to the system's great balance. If the DM asks how hurt a PC is, the player only has to say whether they're bloodied, because they're operating with as much intent to strategically kill as the players are.
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Dec 15, 2016 06:36
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There's no true way, just do whichever the group collectively decide they want. Do it differently every combat if you want to.
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Dec 15, 2016 08:32
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Klungar posted:Since your concern is combat speed, just tell them everything. It super speeds things up if you know if you hit something or can determine that you have a much better chance to hit of you use a different type of attack, and that you don't need to blow your big attack on a minion or someone with only a few HP left. a good rule is to always let players know which enemies are minions (and/or 2-hit minions, if you're homebrewing those) Letting them know enemy defenses is just a matter of taste; it's more common in PbP, just so people can kinda adjudicate their own turns and someone else can go, rather than waiting on the DM to confirm hits/misses.
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Dec 15, 2016 08:34
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There are powers that are not nearly as good/probably a total waste, mostly those that provide defense and to-hit bonuses, if you don't know certain information about your enemies. Just be straight about what's going on when it comes up. You don't need to call out AC values at the start of fighting or something, but when effects happen and defenses are tested, you should let people know what's going on.
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Dec 15, 2016 09:18
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My DM tells us something's defenses if we just barely miss or hit an enemy, presumably the former so we can use powers that beef up rolls and the latter to make us feel cool that we just barely hit something.
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Dec 15, 2016 09:20
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Eopia posted:So how much information should players have both in and out of combat? Should they know AC and NACs for their enemies, HP? Should they know the DCs for things they want to use skills for before they decide to roll? etc. I tell my PCs all of that, because in the end, it just makes everything easier on me, and on the PCs.
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Dec 15, 2016 12:25
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I don't tell players the info at the start of a battle, because no one writes it down and it gets forgotten anyway, but I'm forthcoming with it throughout the encounter and they know they can ask. Sometimes they flat out ask what an enemy's defense is and I'll tell them, sometimes they ask after a miss "would this ability help" and I'll say "quite likely" or "you'd have to roll a 6" (on a d6). Often someone with an attack bonus ability misses by 1 and then I'll outright say "missed, but with your ability it'd be a hit", or if an enemy is one hit away from defeat I'll make sure they know it too. Often if someone hits an enemy's defense exactly I'll say so, but I'm not actually sure if I do that to let them know the exact value, or just because it's a remarkable event. If we had room on the monitor we use for maps, though, I'd just put all that info right there for everyone to peruse at their leisure.
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Dec 15, 2016 12:41
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Unknown Quantity posted:So, can someone give me a one-paragraph descriptor/elevator pitch of each of the various settings D&D has? I know there's Dragonlance, Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, Greyhawk and Planescape (and probably a few others), but I don't really have any context for them and, with no luck in finding the lore laying around, Eberron's the only one I've gotten any kind of exposure to and knowledge of. there's a ton and most have been dead since 2e but a lot of those are still cool. The big ones you'll hear people talk about are: Forgotten Realms: a massive setting which on the surface is a standard high fantasy thing. It's definitely the most widely-supported and expanded on, with lots of additional fiction books, so you can find just about anything you want from medieval-level tech up to early steam-age stuff. Mostly famous for having a gazillion pantheons of deities all competing for followers because gods in FR permadie when they stop being worshipped. Over time a few of the smaller campaign settings were also absorbed into it, like the Arabian Nights-styled Al-Qadim. You'll find first-party support for it in 2e, 3e, 4e, and 5e. Greyhawk: The granddaddy setting Gary Gygax invented it for his own group by taking a map of Earth and flipping it. I think the map has been changed over time, but it's a basic fantasy setting without many frills. Support is in editions up to 3e, first party supplements stopped after that. Dragonlance: Started out as an adventure log that was converted into a setting. It's got a bunch of different eras for play, but the default setting is usually right after the gods start filtering back into the world. (They ditched it for a few centuries when black and white interpretations of the alignment chart led to genocide.) Dragons are the servants of gods and you've got all the colors and associated alignments. There's this big thing with balancing good/evil/neutrality which is kind of weird outside of the D&D alignments. First party support is in 2e and 3e. Eberron: I hate describing it as steampunk. It's D&D-level magitech, no steam whatsoever. There's magitrains, ships, and carriages. A massive city full of towering buildings kept aloft by being built on a spot where the barrier between the elemental plane of air is thin, etc. It's a pulpy setting for sure though. Most of the adventures will center on one of two massive continents, one of which is recovering from a century-long war between the nations (which has now entered a cold war espionage phase) and the other of which is a ruined continent full of jungles and deserts that constantly shift around due to a magical catastrophe millennia ago (lots of treasures and artifacts there ofc). There's first-party support for it in 3e and 4e. No idea if there's plans to port it to 5e. Dark Sun: A dying desert world where a few remaining city states are ruled by immortal sorcerer kings slowly turning into undead dragon gods. Arcane magic actively destroys the environment and all the gods are dead. People like druids though! There's first-party support in 2e and 4e. Ravenloft: Started out as a campaign module that expanded into a full setting. It's a sentient pocket dimension that snatches evil overlords from other realities and imprisons them there for funsies. Other unfortunate idiots will get pulled in to be tormented by them. Castlevania-type antics are probably the best way to run it, but you'll have other horror elements thrown in at different times. There's first-party support for it in 2e, a new campaign module for it in 5e, and third-party support from White Wolf in 3e. Planescape: It's a reality-hopping adventure game focus on the city of Sigil which sits is a crossroads between all of the planes on the D&D Great Wheel. Its big thing were all these competing philosophical ideologies pushed by different factions on the nine-point alignment chart jockeying for supremacy. You can jump from Sigil into any of the planes for adventures, though some are significantly more deadly than others. The first-party support is only in 2e, but there's fan adaptions for the setting in 3e, maybe other editions. But there's a bunch more
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Dec 15, 2016 14:18
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Spelljammer: Dungeons! In! Spaaace! Imagine Jules Verne's Star Trek and you're not far off. It's a truly fantastical cosmos where you gad about on magical flying ships (with their own atmosphere and gravity), voyaging between planetary systems contained within crystal spheres. Each of these spheres may contain one of the other settings, in fact, but that's not as important as what you might encounter out in the greater cosmos: evil beholder empires (who are in a state of neverending genocidal war with each other), giant bugs out for slaves, cool hippopotamus gunslingers, and giant hamsters. No, really.
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Dec 15, 2016 14:51
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Hollow World: A Benevolent T-rex god whose only regret is that his arms are too short to hug everyone rescues societies at the moment they're about to be completely wiped out and transports them into a hollow world with a red sun inside of Mystara, using special magic to help preserve them so they don't fall apart completely in their new weird environment.
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Dec 15, 2016 15:08
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I want to play in spelljammer one day Also, I agree w nuns. Please don't associate eberron with steampunk thank you
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Dec 15, 2016 15:58
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Fuego Fish posted:Spelljammer: Dungeons! In! Spaaace! Imagine Jules Verne's Star Trek and you're not far off. It's a truly fantastical cosmos where you gad about on magical flying ships (with their own atmosphere and gravity), voyaging between planetary systems contained within crystal spheres. Each of these spheres may contain one of the other settings, in fact, but that's not as important as what you might encounter out in the greater cosmos: evil beholder empires (who are in a state of neverending genocidal war with each other), giant bugs out for slaves, cool hippopotamus gunslingers, and giant hamsters. No, really. Descriptions of Spelljammer always make it sound so much cooler than Planescape in theory, but I've never had the chance to test it in practice.
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Dec 15, 2016 22:10
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Funny canonical story about Spelljammer. Canonically, the Dark Sun setting exists, but everyone who's ever discovered it has nope'd the gently caress out.
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Dec 15, 2016 23:04
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Poison Mushroom posted:Funny canonical story about Spelljammer. Canonically, the Dark Sun setting exists, but everyone who's ever discovered it has nope'd the gently caress out. I thought Athas was encased in a gigantic impenetrable crystalline shell? Or that it was possible to get in, but impossible to get out.
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Dec 15, 2016 23:19
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Descriptions of Spelljammer always make it sound so much cooler than Planescape in theory, but I've never had the chance to test it in practice. When I started playing D&D I wanted to do a space setting (and got about halfway with a homebrew for 4e) and even now I'm sick and tired of D&D in general, I still kinda wanna. I certainly have enough stuff left over from my earlier attempts. Maybe I should try shopping around with some third party publisher. Probably wouldn't hurt, considering my writing skills are sicknasty awesome and I'm always in the mood to earn some money.
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Dec 15, 2016 23:46
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I have a strange affection for Dragonstar because it tries so desperately to be Spelljammer with the Sci-Fi hardness cranked up as high as it will go and still allow for dragons and divine magic. It's not very good because it was from the d20 bloat era but I appreciate that someone made the attempt.
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Dec 16, 2016 00:01
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Was that the game where one of the races/classes was a robot or something and had a prestige class that turned them into a ship?
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Dec 16, 2016 00:10
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There were robots and one of the books might have involved that. Like I said it came out during the SRD boom, there were a lot of books.
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Dec 16, 2016 00:13
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Dick Burglar posted:I thought Athas was encased in a gigantic impenetrable crystalline shell? Or that it was possible to get in, but impossible to get out. It's one-way, in order to keep the OP 2e Dark Sun PCs away from other worlds.
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Dec 16, 2016 01:48
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Poison Mushroom posted:Funny canonical story about Spelljammer. Canonically, the Dark Sun setting exists, but everyone who's ever discovered it has nope'd the gently caress out. I had a party with free access to inter-planar travel from Shadowfell to any other world, and I regularly dropped "quest breadcrumbs" that would lead to Athas. They always actively refused to pursue that lead.
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Dec 16, 2016 01:53
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gradenko_2000 posted:I had a party with free access to inter-planar travel from Shadowfell to any other world, and I regularly dropped "quest breadcrumbs" that would lead to Athas. They always actively refused to pursue that lead. Everything on Athas is incredibly dangerous so that's really the only sane response to it
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Dec 16, 2016 06:10
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ArkInBlack posted:Everything on Athas is incredibly dangerous so that's really the only sane response to it The danger on its own wasn't what discouraged us, what did was that we weren't sure if we'd be able to come back. Also because they use funny ceramic coins that aren't accepted anywhere else as their base money.
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Dec 16, 2016 07:27
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Zarick posted:Players and monsters taking autodamage every round combat goes on changes the balance of combat a lot and seems like it would boost the value of any healing or regenerative powers that don't require surges past the very high point they're already at. It also just feels really weird. Something like this seems like for it to work it needs what some systems have which is a "stress" or mental fatigue bar to go along with your HP -- a sword doing only a slightly more severe version of "being in combat" feels really wrong to me. It also seems like it disproportionately punishes non-sturdy characters or characters whose abilities take some setup. It also seems like it would cause a lot of the "whoops I forgot x on my turn" syndrome, because at least most of the time when HP are going up or down there's a clear cause behind it. I noticed that there's a bunch of epic level monsters that have damage auras that are either very difficult to resist/avoid, or are impossible to do so. This is probably in keeping with the designers recognizing that high level characters both have enough defensive abilities to shrug off damage dealt by monsters in a traditional fashion, as well as having enough lockdown effects to prevent monsters from being able to attack in the first place, thus "requiring" that the damage be dealt just as a function of the monster still existing and the fight not yet being over.
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Dec 16, 2016 16:47
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So, I've been looking to get some folks to get a 4E campaign going, based mostly on word of mouth (from the 5E thread). The setting is no issue, I've pretty much settled on a Discworld-esque magitek/steampunky kind of deal (basically Eberron with the numbers filed off and some changes, primarily not-Ankh-Morpork as a city of guilds), but I'm having a bit of a grind with some potential players. The issue is that there's the old misconception that 4E Is Bad™, and I'm not too familiar with the system (yet) to address the general vibe very well. Is there a good, ideally point-by-point, refutation of these misconceptions? Like "Misconception: 4E is an MMO. Reality/Answer: 4E tweaks the same mechanics that MMOs borrowed from DnD" kind of thing. Or a general pitch for 4E not being some sort of hideous abomination against the concept of role-playing that I can use to address their issues. In addition, is there a list of what to use/not use, or stuff to keep an eye out of? Books, classes, and so forth? I've heard about Essentials classes, but apparently the Monster Vault and Rules Compendium are recommended reading?
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Dec 20, 2016 21:37
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Similar question, but I stopped roleplaying about five years ago when my old gaming group broke apart and the local scene stopped supporting 4th. I'd really like to get back into running roleplaying games, and 4th edition is the best version of DnD by a pretty wide margin, but I'm not sure how one is supposed to run it without the old insider tools for character creation. There's just too many source books to pull from, some of them with pretty important powers or feats. I also became less enthused with the system after what should have been errata kept turning into must-take-feats. Has anyone expanded upon the core ideas put forth by 4th? I looked into 13th Age and it looks like a pretty unbalanced mess, with vancian wizards making GBS threads all over encounters and mostly garbage in combat rogues, so nothing like that. Edit: My old gaming group had one really nice homebrew rule for 4th edition: no extended rests. Instead, characters would regain 1/3rd of their healing surges each milestone along with a daily power. I hated designing adventures around being able to sleep, so this helped immensely. We also just leveled up after every major campaign arc, no xp tracking. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 21:54
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Insider still mostly(?) exists, and the offline character builder is still kicking around. Wouldn't run it without at least one of those, myself.
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Dec 20, 2016 21:57
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quote:The issue is that there's the old misconception that 4E Is Bad™, and I'm not too familiar with the system (yet) to address the general vibe very well. The "4E is light on roleplaying" can be true in cases where you let the lengthy combat and the bad skill challenge system overwhelm the rest of the game. Don't relentlessly litigate combat; end it when the characters have clearly won. Try to write games where the objective isn't just to move from fight to fight, although fighting is important in an adventure game. Avoid skill challenges; make players think of solutions rather than pick the highest number on their skill list and hope they roll X. The general pros of 4E are: -It is the most balanced edition of D&D, ever. Fighters are actually good and may even be the best. The party's casters can't overwhelm the table with their abilities, and you don't need a wizard or cleric; as long as everyone is occupying one of the three basic roles (defender, striker, leader), anyone can be anything (I left out Controller on purpose; it's not a critical role). -The rules are relatively streamlined (by D&D standards) and designed with transparency in mind. Everyone uses the same basic rules framework. quote:In addition, is there a list of what to use/not use, or stuff to keep an eye out of? Books, classes, and so forth? I've heard about Essentials classes, but apparently the Monster Vault and Rules Compendium are recommended reading? Significant differences in class power don't generally present themselves until level 11, where non-essentials classes start outpacing most Essentials with the options at their command. Other bad classes: o-Assassin (the one that uses shrouds) Seeker Binder Warlocks Bladesingers Hexblades Vampires Everything else is at least serviceable. The strongest classes are those that appeared in the core book or otherwise very early on, such as in Player's Handbook II. The Monster Vault is well-liked because it adjusts monster hit points downward and damage upward, making fights quicker. The Rules Compendium is the best rules reference for the game. As far as house rules, use inherent bonuses to greatly mitigate one of 4E's biggest problems, the item treadmill. Award free Expertise and Improved Defenses at the very least to correct some math problems. Name Change fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 21:59
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KPC_Mammon posted:Has anyone expanded upon the core ideas put forth by 4th? I looked into 13th Age and it looks like a pretty unbalanced mess, with vancian wizards making GBS threads all over encounters and mostly garbage in combat rogues, so nothing like that.
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Dec 20, 2016 22:01
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Serperoth posted:Is there a good, ideally point-by-point, refutation of these misconceptions? If you think you need this then it's probably already a lost cause. Keep looking for people who want to play or just ask the haters to give it a shot anyway.
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Dec 20, 2016 22:13
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dont even fink about it posted:Good helpful stuff That's some nice info, thank you. Basically what the OP says, I'd have imagined I'd need more to play "properly". Speaks to how good 4E is I guess. Now I just need to find the chargen, and look into Inherent Bonuses more, as well as Feat Taxes and their details. And read more. starkebn posted:If you think you need this then it's probably already a lost cause. Keep looking for people who want to play or just ask the haters to give it a shot anyway. Between writing that post and your quote, I found out that he IS actually interested. Maybe not "There's nothing I'd rather do than play with you", but he's expressed some interest.
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Dec 20, 2016 22:24
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For inherent bonuses, if you're using either of the char builders, it's a checkbox that you have all the players check at creation and then never worry about again. You are then free to award whatever magic junk you want to taste with no worries that the numbers will fall behind (beyond letting them get the improved armors at the appropriate levels). For feat taxes I've found that it's best not to worry about that either until the players are level 2+. Then you can contrive some way to give them a free feat or two as a boon as they level. You'll likely want to do expertise around 2-3, improved defenses on the way into Paragon, and maaaaybe Melee Training somewhere in-between if it's a problem for several in your group. Opinions differ, but I like to hand out the Versatile Expertise feat (generally as many times per character as they want), since it's a one size fits all deal, and if people want the extra bonus from the Essentials expertise feats they can still take them.
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Dec 20, 2016 23:29
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I wrote a guide to what books you'd need to get started with 4e as a baseline: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=454039346 And really, the way to minimize "charOp dumpster diving" without the Character Builder is to just use less books. Even just using PHB 1 classes will give you a diverse, and probably the most iconic, set of classes, and if you're awarding Feat Taxes and Inherent Bonuses, the limited options won't matter too much, especially since the monster math by default won't be so difficult as to demand fully optimized characters. The key, as with a lot of things I've found in mechanically intensive RPGs, is to not be too strict with how locked-in character choices are. Let people choose whatever feels cool, or whatever's the first thing on the list for the sake of convenience, then just let them pick something else if it ain't working out.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:49
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The biggest problem with not using character builder programs is errata. PHB1-only paladins are really limited in their defending, and their divine challenge kind of sucks. Edit: also updated racial ability scores weren't a thing until way later.
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Dec 21, 2016 05:14
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Had an interesting thing happen. Level 5, paladin druid rogue rogue cleric. Had them up against a level 5 elite artillery and level 7 brute, and when they died it spawned a level 8 elite brute. (Owlbear reskin) He was messing them up a bit, but they were clearly winning, until I got lucky with double claw beak attack, for instant overwhelming damage death of the paladin He didnt seem to mind too much, character creation is a breeze, (hes now a goliath warlord) but lm wondering if this was bad encounter design on my part, bad tactics on theirs, or just the dice going that way sometimes.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:28
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Loel posted:Had an interesting thing happen. Well, that level gap is pretty extreme at mid-heroic but it's not beyond the pale if everybody is using all of their stuff, did they have any difficulty hitting the level 8 things AC at all? Also owlbears are just kind of nasty in general with their combo.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:36
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Mendrian posted:Well, that level gap is pretty extreme at mid-heroic but it's not beyond the pale if everybody is using all of their stuff, did they have any difficulty hitting the level 8 things AC at all? Also owlbears are just kind of nasty in general with their combo. They were hitting lots, it was at 80/230 hp when it got the combo. Rogues backstab is silly. They had it stunned dazed weakened and/or blinded most of the rounds too.
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Dec 21, 2016 21:28
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Mendrian posted:Well, that level gap is pretty extreme at mid-heroic but it's not beyond the pale if everybody is using all of their stuff, did they have any difficulty hitting the level 8 things AC at all? Also owlbears are just kind of nasty in general with their combo.
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Dec 21, 2016 22:13
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