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The controllers could do their own inside-out tracking. 
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Dec 16, 2016 02:57
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SwissCM posted:Tracked controllers on inside-out tracked VR setups is going to be a reeeeeaaall problem. Remember that if you have working, low cost inside-out tracking you can just put that tech inside the controllers too. I don't know whether the first generation will need to go that far, though, since it'd be pretty unusual for controllers to be held in such a way that no part of them has line of sight to any part of a headset strap.
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Dec 16, 2016 02:59
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It's likely the lighthouse sensors will be small enough to erase the Rift's size advantage way faster than any non-lighthouse-style inside out tracking system becomes a reality. Having base stations that you know never move makes things so much easier to track multiple devices at once. Particularly hands, which are going to be in all kinds of crazy orientations.
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Dec 16, 2016 03:09
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It would be best if they implemented Lighthouse. It's great for tracking wholly indpendent headsets since there is no communication besides the light flashes. They just need to find a way to add a 3rd or 4th station.
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Dec 16, 2016 03:16
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Inside-out, unassisted tracking is the future. Making people drill holes in walls or run cables like a home theatre setup isn't compatible with mass-market VR. Zero-installation, laptop-like usability. Then, high-speed passthrough.
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Dec 16, 2016 03:20
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Yeah, I knew going in that the PC setups we've got now are just pit stops on the way to the Promised Land of self-contained systems. I guess I wasn't expecting things to move as quickly as they are.
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Dec 16, 2016 03:25
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Subjunctive posted:Inside-out, unassisted tracking is the future. Making people drill holes in walls or run cables like a home theatre setup isn't compatible with mass-market VR. Zero-installation, laptop-like usability. Then, high-speed passthrough. That's what lighthouse is. Valve marketed Lighthouse as something that you could have in your TV. It could be built into surround speakers. A standard technology that people could already have to track their headsets and controllers.
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Dec 16, 2016 03:28
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Sure, it could be built into lots of stuff, but it won't be (who is going to add a big moving part to a TV or a power cable to a speaker just for a VR buyer market that is so small it might as well not exist?), and very few people have rear speakers anyway. Much less speakers and TVs mounted up where HTC tells us Lighthouse emitters need to go.
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Dec 16, 2016 03:36
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NRVNQSR posted:Remember that if you have working, low cost inside-out tracking you can just put that tech inside the controllers too. I don't know whether the first generation will need to go that far, though, since it'd be pretty unusual for controllers to be held in such a way that no part of them has line of sight to any part of a headset strap. Putting your hands to the sides of your body would probably be enough to occlude tracking if line of sight to the headset is needed and the problem would only become worse as headsets get smaller.
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Dec 16, 2016 03:37
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Subjunctive posted:Sure, it could be built into lots of stuff, but it won't be (who is going to add a big moving part to a TV or a power cable to a speaker just for a VR buyer market that is so small it might as well not exist?), and very few people have rear speakers anyway. Much less speakers and TVs mounted up where HTC tells us Lighthouse emitters need to go. Unassisted tracking is the eventual future, but it's still a ways off. Imagine trying to track which parts of a room are people/pets vs the walls. Lighthouse-style tracking is likely going to be the medium-term solution.
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Dec 16, 2016 03:39
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BabelFish posted:Unassisted tracking is the eventual future, but it's still a ways off. Imagine trying to track which parts of a room are people/pets vs the walls. Lighthouse-style tracking is likely going to be the medium-term solution. I used unassisted tracking today and had people intentionally moving around in front of me to try and disrupt the tracking. We couldn't do it. It would have a problem in a featureless room at this point, but I'm told the sensitivity is solvable. SwissCM posted:Low cost inside-out tracking for a headset means something a bit different than it does to a controller. With a headset, it's expected that there might be a wire running to a battery or PC in order to get the performance needed to do the complex calculations for that kind of tracking. Cramming that technology into a lightweight, wireless controller is a much more difficult problem to solve. There is plenty of room in the Vive wands to put more battery and computer than the headset I used today had. You also don't need tracking as good for controllers as you do for the head, IMO.
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Dec 16, 2016 03:45
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We did agree that pet awareness is an urgent and challenging issue for the growth of VR.
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Dec 16, 2016 03:48
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Subjunctive posted:I used unassisted tracking today and had people intentionally moving around in front of me to try and disrupt the tracking. We couldn't do it. It would have a problem in a featureless room at this point, but I'm told the sensitivity is solvable. If you've gotten the demo then I can't really argue with that. Were you moving while the people outside did?
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Dec 16, 2016 03:52
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BabelFish posted:If you've gotten the demo then I can't really argue with that. Were you moving while the people outside did? Yeah, I really wanted to break it because I've been a near-term unassisted skeptic. If I hadn't been moving I wouldn't have been able to tell the tracking was working, heh.
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Dec 16, 2016 03:54
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BabelFish posted:Got my extra rift cameras in today. I'm having an issue where I'm losing cameras during guardian setup. AndrewP posted:
Might not be your issue, but I've heard there's a problem with the Rift cameras going into standby if the headset doesn't move for a time. Which, obviously, is normally not an issue but can be a problem when configuring guardian bounds. You might try moving the headset around the next time it happens. If true I assume it's an oversight and will probably be patched soonish.
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Dec 16, 2016 04:00
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They will need to figure out a way to fix or improve the reflective surface issues with Lighthouse before I think your "normal" consumer would want to use it. I don't see a majority of people willing to have to cover up their Tvs, windows, and hanging picture frames in order to use something.
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Dec 16, 2016 04:06
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Welp, I had been having some tracking issues with two opposing sensors. Just set up my third sensor and it is drat near perfect now. Feels fantastic.
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Dec 16, 2016 04:19
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Basic Chunnel posted:I'd already had a good PC so as long as the specs aren't stupendously better (and they will be, at some point) then I'm fine with having this dumb thing. Just get me an Alien game, for christ's sake I played Alien: Isolation in VR. It was amazing. I want more so bad. Subjunctive posted:We did agree that pet awareness is an urgent and challenging issue for the growth of VR. My toddler's favorite thing to do if he notices someone using VR is to run laps around them as close as possible while flailing his arms in the air, to maximize his chance of being hit, and he cries like you're killing him if you try to stop him. It is... uh... some sort of awareness thing would be great, is what I'm saying, yeah. And not just for pets.
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Dec 16, 2016 04:26
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GlyphGryph posted:My toddler's favorite thing to do if he notices someone using VR is to run laps around them as close as possible while flailing his arms in the air, to maximize his chance of being hit, and he cries like you're killing him if you try to stop him. It is... uh... some sort of awareness thing would be great, is what I'm saying, yeah. And not just for pets. When my sister tried the Vive, the first thing her daughter did was put her face directly in front of the base station. Hopefully those lasers aren't dangerous. My nephew came home from school or wherever and immediately ran up to my sister and just stood there silently in front of her as if he wanted to get hit.
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Dec 16, 2016 04:28
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Subjunctive posted:Making people drill holes in walls or run cables like a home theatre setup isn't compatible with mass-market VR. Zero-installation, laptop-like usability. I'm not sure I'd go that far. Remember, the original Wii required just as much setup as current console VR does and it achieved enormous mass market success. Baseless tracking is certainly a valuable step for VR, but I think it'd be a mistake to consider it a make-or-break issue; as always the breakthrough's going to come down to the killer app, VR's Wii Sports - whatever that turns out to be.
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Dec 16, 2016 04:39
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Its not really fair to say the Wii sensor bar requires as much set up, you just kinda fling it in front of your TV and you're done. The lighthouses even after drilling them into the walls, took me a few days of probing around my space and judiciously studying the SteamVR room overview to get them dialed in perfectly with maximum coverage. I don't consider that an undue amount of setup either, but probably more than a lot of people would want to bother with.
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Dec 16, 2016 04:46
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Speaking of Nintendo, they just filed a patent for a Gear-style HMD enclosure for the Switch. This doesn't necessarily mean such a product will ever ship, but it seems to be on their radar.
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Dec 16, 2016 04:47
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haveblue posted:Speaking of Nintendo, they just filed a patent for a Gear-style HMD enclosure for the Switch. This doesn't necessarily mean such a product will ever ship, but it seems to be on their radar.
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Dec 16, 2016 04:51
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homeless snail posted:Its not really fair to say the Wii sensor bar requires as much set up, you just kinda fling it in front of your TV and you're done. The lighthouses even after drilling them into the walls, took me a few days of probing around my space and judiciously studying the SteamVR room overview to get them dialed in perfectly with maximum coverage. I don't consider that an undue amount of setup either, but probably more than a lot of people would want to bother with. That's why I compared it to console VR, i.e. PSVR. I'd agree that current Lighthouse base stations are probably on the wrong side of user-friendly.
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Dec 16, 2016 04:52
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I wonder if a pair of cheap cameras on front of a headset would track Touch controllers just fine. They wouldn't even need the resolution of standard constellation cameraa since you know the controllers will rarely ever be >3ft from the headset. If they leave the users field of view fall back to internal IMU tracking since when the controller can't be seen tracking it so accurately isn't as important.
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Dec 16, 2016 10:28
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NRVNQSR posted:That's why I compared it to console VR, i.e. PSVR. I'd agree that current Lighthouse base stations are probably on the wrong side of user-friendly. People really over-complicating the lighthouses. Seriously it's enough to just place them on a surface on opposite sides of the room and you have tracking that's pretty much spotless, you only get better coverage the better you setup is, but in no way is it required.
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Dec 16, 2016 10:54
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Senor Tron posted:I wonder if a pair of cheap cameras on front of a headset would track Touch controllers just fine. They wouldn't even need the resolution of standard constellation cameraa since you know the controllers will rarely ever be >3ft from the headset. You can't fall back on the IMU on any positionally tracked object for more than maybe a half a second, if that. Your hands would accelerate off into the distance.
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Dec 16, 2016 10:57
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People saying "OH NOBODY WILL EVER DO THAT TOO COMPLICATED" prolly sound a lot like people talking about things that where huge pains in the rear end, like indoor plumbing and electricity. I realize these are utilities and not entertainment like VR but the point stands. Or hey even more contemporary, running Ethernet lines in houses. If Virtual Reality is going to be a thing having a home just 'being' VR-ready will be as normal as WiFi or Cell coverage or Ethernet or __________. Today's pain in the rear end is tomorrows taken-for-granted. Having wired cameras with extension cables is super low tech feeling and takes some luster off of Oculus' attempt at flawless presentation. Plus they say you should have three of them? Cmon.
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Dec 16, 2016 11:01
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I shoved my coffee table out of the way and put my two tracking cameras on top of my tower speakers on either side of my TV. Wife came home and wasn't pleased, but then she tried it. She hasn't cared for VR before but she played for almost two hours and now she wants to figure out how to fit my PC into the living room nicely.
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Dec 16, 2016 11:38
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TomR posted:I shoved my coffee table out of the way and put my two tracking cameras on top of my tower speakers on either side of my TV. Wife came home and wasn't pleased, but then she tried it. She hasn't cared for VR before but she played for almost two hours and now she wants to figure out how to fit my PC into the living room nicely. Yeah, I had a similar experience of seeing someone go from "lol nerd look at you playing video games" to "gently caress I stayed up until 4 am playing video games what's wrong with me" in one day
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Dec 16, 2016 12:39
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TomR posted:I shoved my coffee table out of the way and put my two tracking cameras on top of my tower speakers on either side of my TV. Wife came home and wasn't pleased, but then she tried it. She hasn't cared for VR before but she played for almost two hours and now she wants to figure out how to fit my PC into the living room nicely. Lemming posted:Yeah, I had a similar experience of seeing someone go from "lol nerd look at you playing video games" to "gently caress I stayed up until 4 am playing video games what's wrong with me" in one day These exact situations have happened to me, our VR room is in the living room now, no regrets and I'm constantly feeling weird about my hands IRL for a reason I can't explain.
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Dec 16, 2016 14:36
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FormatAmerica posted:These exact situations have happened to me, our VR room is in the living room now, no regrets and I'm constantly feeling weird about my hands IRL for a reason I can't explain. My weird moment like that was after VR-ing for a while I must've been dreaming from the same perspective as the headset or something - right after waking up my hands felt farther away and it seemed out of place that not only did my hands and fingers all move and respond to my brain really well, there were arms that went past the elbow coming off them. I've gotten some of the funky FPS strafe vision and whatever on the occasional super long high school summer Quake/Halo binges, but this was a new level of strange. Play Recoil y'all, it's really cool! Hit a pretty even matchup that we stuck with for a while, found out every few rounds it'll move on to a new stage that may have a different layout for the blue bank walls. Every few successful throws back and forth while the disc is still in play will speed it up (I've seen 1x -> 3x -> 6x speed). Punches are tough and kind of janky but I've had some better luck only going for them if it's a 1x speed throw coming without much an angle, charging up, then instead of a punch motion holding my hand out in front as if blocking with a shield and lining it up so the very middle of the disc bounces off around the wrist. The Racket: Nx demo on Steam keeps being really satisfying to play, I keep loading it up like it's a PS1 demo disc.
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Dec 16, 2016 15:50
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Fredrik1 posted:People really over-complicating the lighthouses. Needs to be over your head or it doesn't work though. Been to a lot of rooms, trying this is usually my first step, but it works in like... 20% of them. If I'm lucky, and it usually requires some pretty hefty "modifications" in the form of temporarily stacked books and boxes. And tracking is generally really bad because of it, since unstable surfaces cause a ton of vibration. It's okay to admit you got lucky and have a room layout that made it easy, but it's a bit weird to assume therefore that it's not an issue for other people. The lighthouse setup has been the number one enthusiasm killer for people I have demoed VR to so far.
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Dec 16, 2016 16:00
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There's been at least a half dozen people in this thread talk about having to cover pictures on the wall, tv screens, windows, etc. to keep the lighthouses from freaking out. There is no way that is going to work for mass consumer adoption. It's fine for early adopters who don't mind dedicating a space to VR, but I can't imagine that tracking system surviving past the first few generations of headsets.
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Dec 16, 2016 16:09
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Tracked headsets/controllers do wonders for transmitting nonverbal information when playing games with others in VR. I'd be interested to if someone could rig a Kinnect up to track bones/limbs and superimpose them onto positional data from the HMD and controllers. It might be a feasible way to track stuff like arms and legs without strapping more sensors on your person.
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Dec 16, 2016 17:03
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TomR posted:I shoved my coffee table out of the way and put my two tracking cameras on top of my tower speakers on either side of my TV. Wife came home and wasn't pleased, but then she tried it. She hasn't cared for VR before but she played for almost two hours and now she wants to figure out how to fit my PC into the living room nicely. this right here is probably the most valuable thing Oculus has going for it. Versatility and ease of use is no small thing
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Dec 16, 2016 17:11
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Warbird posted:Tracked headsets/controllers do wonders for transmitting nonverbal information when playing games with others in VR. I was playing raw data multiplayer last night (I unlocked dual pistols) it was pretty fun just celebrating surviving a wave by Yosemite Sam shooting into the air! And then just tossing the pistols at each other once we ran out of bullets. Also, I got a couple of wall mount camera lighting jobbers and mounted them to a small board. the I used some of those command strip things to adhere them to my walls above my desk, so now nothing occludes the cameras and no screws in the walls. My playspace got a bit bigger, but it tracks better; which was the goal. Once my 3rd camera comes in I have a tripod ready to go to find optimal placement, and a 3rd wall mount if its viable. It just feels odd now sitting at my desk with a couple of cameras just always pointed out into the room. Feels like a shop I used to go to where the owners didn't trust any of the employees and they had security cammed up the entire shop...
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Dec 16, 2016 17:32
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AndrewP posted:this right here is probably the most valuable thing Oculus has going for it. Versatility and ease of use is no small thing Yeah, I'd almost get a new computer in a small case just for VR but really I can just move the PC I have and it's just a few USB cables to plug in when I want to do room scale and it only takes a few minutes to do. Maybe when I'm ready to upgrade.
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Dec 16, 2016 17:52
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my girlfriend didn't even like the lighthouses until I convinced her they *definitely* weren't cameras. She wouldn't be cool with always on cameras produced by facebook and honestly I'm not really sure I could argue with her on that.
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Dec 16, 2016 17:59
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The cameras have an opaque piece of plastic on them and only see infrared light.
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Dec 16, 2016 18:01
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