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THE BAR posted:The hell, dude, spoiler that crap. I haven't seen it yet, but you are aware of the premise of Rogue One? Pretty sure they successfully steal the plans at the end.
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Dec 16, 2016 18:57
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But my camera angles!!  E: I'm sorry, I'm just trying really hard to avoid any spoilers for this one. It.. it didn't go too well with SW7. THE BAR fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Dec 16, 2016 |
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Dec 16, 2016 19:00
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wuffles posted:So is Covenant the movie that's supposed to tie directly back to Alien? If that's the case, I guess they're gonna have to set up the Space Jockey/Derelict/Distress Beacon scenario at some point in Covenant so the Nostromo can come across it in the future? I think that Alien: Covenant is one of three planned prequels to Alien? I don't recall specifics but I'm fairly sure that multiple sources have confirmed that there are more films in this series coming from Ridley Scott, as well as Blomkamp's movie as well.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:04
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Almost every time a situation arises where a filmmaker tells a backstory ("So you wondered just WHAT'S UP with that Space Jockey? Now we're gonna find out!" etc.) it ends up badly. The Star Wars prequels are the most prominent example but this whole "we really wanted to dive in to what it means to be a Space Jockey" approach is up there. There's a difference between leaving a story point dangling and providing a setting that adds to the overall mystery (and creepiness in the case of the original Alien). Who loving cares what the Space Jockey was? It was some unknowable ancient race that got hosed by the Xenomorph, and now the torch is being passed. That's all that really matters. Turning them in to some bipedal ur-humans who are secretly in charge of everything is dumb and also has zero connection to the rest of the Alien universe, good and bad parts alike.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:16
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Maybe it'll be the MGS3 of the Alien franchise.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:23
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Basebf555 posted:I'm hoping there won't ever be a scene where we literally see the derelict from Alien land on LV-426, but I guess that's what the fans want so we probably will get just that. I honestly don't think there will be, but there will probably be events in the movie that lead to that as the inevitable outcome off-screen between the films. Like Team Space Jockey goes blasting off again at the end of Covenant, but uh oh, he got facehugged earlier in the movie. We're left to infer the burstin' and the crashin' and the derelictin' that goes on later. Speaking of what fans want: Dear Ridley Scott, can you please make the Space Jockey be some eldritch old-god that created the Engineers and stuff, but is beyond the realm of human comprehension? You could have the Engineers' suits just be an homage to the god they worship, and make him totally yuge, and alien, and horrifying to lesser beings. Please don't just have him be a taller engineer or w/e. Like, before the timeskip to the landing of the Covenant, Shaw and Dave-head find him and he reveals all the mysteries of creation, time, and space; which actually answers all her questions about the cosmos but also shatters her mind into a thousand pieces. After she inevitably dies alone in her madness, Fassbender's head is left by itself on the planet for however many years until the Covenant shows up. An advanced, conscious, artificial intelligence sitting in what is essentially solitary confinement (for decades?) ruminating over the underlying truth about life in the universe that broke a mortal mind. Covenant shows up, David does some chicanery, Xenomorphs are made by David's 'forbidden' knowledge, God wakes up, everyone(?) dies, see above on what happens to god.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:37
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Ixian posted:There's a difference between leaving a story point dangling and providing a setting that adds to the overall mystery (and creepiness in the case of the original Alien). Who loving cares what the Space Jockey was? It was some unknowable ancient race that got hosed by the Xenomorph, and now the torch is being passed. That's all that really matters. Turning them in to some bipedal ur-humans who are secretly in charge of everything is dumb and also has zero connection to the rest of the Alien universe, good and bad parts alike. this is why i have no interest in rogue one. all that matters about the death star plans is they get to leia, the backstory means jack poo poo. also i don't like that the aliens are actually engineered it was cooler when i thought the space jockeys happened upon them and used them as a weapon.
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Dec 16, 2016 20:08
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I always assume they made them since they look very similar, they're both bio-mechanical giger-horrors. Like the space jockey, the ship, and the alien all seem to be the work of the same "hand" or evolved on the same planet or the result of the same technology. Some sort of shared lineage. They certainly didn't need a chance encounter with a primitive hu-mon synth to figure out bio-mechanical style.
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Dec 16, 2016 20:10
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I hope David finds a book by the engineers and spends most of the movie decoding t and there's a crisis and David finally comes in and says he's deciphered the book and they hope it's a way to avert the crisis and David says it's just full of dick jokes
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Dec 16, 2016 20:16
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oldpainless posted:I hope David finds a book by the engineers and spends most of the movie decoding t and there's a crisis and David finally comes in and says he's deciphered the book and they hope it's a way to avert the crisis and David says it's just full of dick jokes They find it next to a Gigeresque shitter.
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Dec 16, 2016 20:36
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Groovelord Neato posted:this is why i have no interest in rogue one. all that matters about the death star plans is they get to leia, the backstory means jack poo poo. This is a key misunderstanding The point of any prequel is not to 'flesh out' an existing story, but to explore what was lost in the telling of a story. It is about opens up new possibilities and examining how things could have gone differently. It is not to pile fresh corpses onto the pile of dead canon. Rogue One, for example, is about the radical aspects of the Rebellion that had been repressed in the 'actual' Star Wars films so that we could focus on this princess and her knights. Prometheus provided absolutely no canonical explanation for the alien pilot. In fact, the one in Alien is very clearly not the same as the 'engineers'. Prometheus simply uses similar imagery to attack people's fantasies about 'ancient aliens' who appear as gods.
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Dec 16, 2016 20:48
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Why Walter and not Edward? They had a thing going there with the android names.
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Dec 16, 2016 20:48
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SimonCat posted:Why Walter and not Edward? They had a thing going there with the android names. I'm not sure it really holds water but my initial thought was that it was meant to imply the passage of time between when David left on the Prometheus and when the Covenant crew lands on whatever the gently caress planet they end up on. Like there was an Edward, Frank, Greg...etc until the latest model Walter who's in the movie. I guess once they get to Z they start back again at A for Ash or something 
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Dec 16, 2016 21:01
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Groovelord Neato posted:this is why i have no interest in rogue one. all that matters about the death star plans is they get to leia, the backstory means jack poo poo. I'm treating Rogue One like a movie version of a Star Wars RPG session - I'm not watching it to find out the ~*~SECRET BACKSTORY~*~ of whatever from a prior movie, I'm watching it to see a group of new characters interact and do entertaining and interesting stuff within the Star Wars setting. They could be stealing the plans to the Emperor's outhouse for all I care.
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Dec 16, 2016 21:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:This is a key misunderstanding This is a good point. Also, Rogue One was generally well acted and put together. The 3rd act was pretty bananas. Was it necessary to tell the story as far as the overall Star Wars mythos/whatever you want to call it is concerned? No, but they did a good job doing it. What Scott did with the Engineers is closer to what Lucas did in the prequels.
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Dec 16, 2016 21:24
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I find the hate about Rogue one very strange. I thought the last one was fun and ok, and in retrospect liked it less and less the more I thought about it due to a lot of really really dumb poo poo that made no sense. I actually got excited about Rogue one because it's set in a fairly narrow time period and there isn't really a lot of room for huge canon expanding lore dumps, it just looks like a fun adventure with some enjoyable characters. I don't know if it will be good or not, but so many people wrote it off simply because the plot isn't grand enough or it's not massively expanding some useless lore-building. "Uhg we already know about the death star and the empire! The force awakens introduced a new bad empire and an even bigger more dangerous super weapon! The quality of a movie is entirely to do with how big and powerful the threat is and how much lore is dumped!" Why can't a movie in an established universe just be good because it's a good movie with good characters and a good plot? Sure, sprinkle some lore, sprinkle some world-building, but that's not the primary focus of movies. I'd watch a movie just about some criminals operating in the bowels of Coruscant during the empire, I'd watch a movie about some minor rebel squadron dealing with some poo poo immediately post return of the jedi. What ever, just make it a good movie. It's the same with alien. You don't need to up the threat or introduce 5 new collectable monsters or lore that *changes everything*. Just make a good movie, all that other poo poo is incidental. Make an alien movie that doesn't even have the titular alien, maybe some expedition found some totally unrelated horror from beyond and have to deal with that. Maybe WY has all sorts of poor working class bastards being sent on detours all the time to pick up dangerous poo poo, tell one of their stories, just make it a good story. It doesn't have to explain any of the mystery of alien, it doesn't have to explain any deep lore about how Jesus was actually an engineer but Moses was actually an ancient robot built by an ancient god that was actually just a human that traveled back in time before the big bang man woahhhh this lore is so deep and good which is the most important part of a movie!
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Dec 16, 2016 21:26
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E: double post
SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Dec 16, 2016 |
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Dec 16, 2016 21:26
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oldpainless posted:I hope David finds a book by the engineers and spends most of the movie decoding t and there's a crisis and David finally comes in and says he's deciphered the book and they hope it's a way to avert the crisis and David says it's just full of dick jokes It's actually a cookbook.
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Dec 16, 2016 21:35
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Basebf555 posted:I'm hoping there won't ever be a scene where we literally see the derelict from Alien land on LV-426, but I guess that's what the fans want so we probably will get just that. I also need to see that space jocky die and have an alien come out from him.... you figured out the after credit scene!!!!!!!! It will be an escaping space jocky, that david let go for his human revengeance. Ixian posted:Almost every time a situation arises where a filmmaker tells a backstory ("So you wondered just WHAT'S UP with that Space Jockey? Now we're gonna find out!" etc.) it ends up badly. The Star Wars prequels are the most prominent example but this whole "we really wanted to dive in to what it means to be a Space Jockey" approach is up there. The star wars prequels showed a good story how to fail at being a Jedi. Tenzarin fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Dec 16, 2016 |
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Dec 16, 2016 21:42
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oldpainless posted:I hope David finds a book by the engineers and spends most of the movie decoding t Then when he finally turns the page again, it says "Quadrilogy isn't even a real word!" and his next sulk is even longer.
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Dec 16, 2016 22:44
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Payndz posted:On page 1, it says "It's ternary, not trinary, dickwad" and David goes into a massive android sulk for three hundred years. He's gonna lose his poo poo when they invent quintology then! Baronjutter posted:
I'd love a Weyland-Yutani movie that just dealt with some poor fucks who are buried in corporate bureaucracy only on other planets where bad decisions can kill you in creative ways. Like you said, an alien movie without the Aliens. You could even look at it like, the Aliens by now are part of the problem, they are a near-unstoppable virus that walks and there's really nothing left to do at this point other than kill them before they overrun wherever they happen to be. That's one of my biggest concerns with Covenant: It has Aliens, and people who don't know about Aliens, and make decisions that look really stupid because the audience does know about Aliens, and in the end they all gotta go. There are a million b-horror movies with that same premise. We all know how they go along and it's the quality of jump scares and how disgusting they can make death and dismemberment that separates them at this point.
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Dec 16, 2016 23:56
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Don't worry from now on they are neomorphs, embrace the disconnect.
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Dec 17, 2016 01:01
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Xenomrph posted:I'm treating Rogue One like a movie version of a Star Wars RPG session - I'm not watching it to find out the ~*~SECRET BACKSTORY~*~ of whatever from a prior movie, I'm watching it to see a group of new characters interact and do entertaining and interesting stuff within the Star Wars setting. They could be stealing the plans to the Emperor's outhouse for all I care. star wars isn't compelling or classic or beloved because of the setting but because of the characters. the comic booking of movies is annoying as gently caress. like when people go oh but they're doing a new thing who the gently caress cares i want to see a star wars movie. i'm sure i would've loved it 20 years ago tho. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 01:22
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Star Wars Rebel One killed Kyle Katarn!
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Dec 17, 2016 01:24
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Groovelord Neato posted:star wars isn't compelling or classic or beloved because of the setting but because of the characters. the comic booking of movies is annoying as gently caress. like when people go oh but they're doing a new thing who the gently caress cares i want to see a star wars movie. The old Star Wars EU often fell into a trap you're describing: yes, the characters are what made the old movies so good, but the old EU often assumed it had to be SPECIFICALLY those characters. The best stuff in the old EU were the things that ditched Han, Luke, and Leia and told stories with new (good) characters. It seems like Rogue One takes the same approach and I'm very okay with that.
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Dec 17, 2016 02:16
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Xenomrph posted:That's my point, everyone I've seen praising Rogue One so far has said the characters are great. It doesn't matter what they're stealing or how it fits into "the lore". While I've ditched most of my EU trash, I still love the Thrawn books and Wraith Squadron.
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Dec 17, 2016 02:18
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Xenomrph posted:That's my point, everyone I've seen praising Rogue One so far has said the characters are great.
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Dec 17, 2016 03:59
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david_a posted:All the negative reviews I've seen say that the characters are shallow and one-dimensional (other than the robot or whatever). That is a load of sperg bullshit. I'm not gonna say it's the greatest movie of all time or even the very best Star Wars movie but Rogue One was a great flick, fun, tons of cool poo poo for SW fans, and overall a good time. Jyn was probably the the character with the least personality but it didn't matter a bit and she's still better acted, written, and filmed than any single prequel character I can think of (which is a low bar, sure, but worth mentioning). If you don't lose your poo poo in the third act when the Rebel Alliance turns it up to 11 then you just straight up hate Star Wars and should stop giving a gently caress. Anyway back to Alien (3!)
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Dec 17, 2016 06:34
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What if Ridley Scott made a Star Wars film? It probably would have no space battles or light sabers because people would want that in a Star Wars film.
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Dec 17, 2016 07:25
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The prequels and Prometheus both elevated the original movies they were spawned from. You can tell because those who hate them and love their fandom more than the movie that inspired it can't stop talking about them.
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Dec 17, 2016 08:37
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oldpainless posted:What if Ridley Scott made a Star Wars film? It probably would have no space battles or light sabers because people would want that in a Star Wars film. Yes, it would probably not resemble a Disney film at all.
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Dec 17, 2016 14:13
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ruddiger posted:The prequels and Prometheus both elevated the original movies they were spawned from. "fandom" types are the ones that like the prequels since it's in the same universe. they're beholden to creators. slaves to canon. they're the tv tropes types.
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Dec 17, 2016 16:30
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But both moves took the decades of all that fan canon (expanded universe/novels/comic books/toys/trading cards/video games/fan obsessed wiki entries/overtly detailed field manuals) and tossed all that poo poo in the trash to rebuild the mythos for a new audience. Which is why "true fans" hate the prequels and prometheus and wear it like a badge of honor (see, RLM and every defender who are "OT trilogy purists" ~oh and the Disney movies~), as if hating a film for ruining their ideas of what the franchise represented is a unique take on things. It's why there's so many still clinging on Blomkamp to bring their fan fiction back to the screen.
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Dec 17, 2016 16:54
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I think the expectation is for it to be good. The only thing prometheus and star wars prequels have in common is to have a story not worth telling.
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Dec 17, 2016 17:27
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ruddiger posted:But both moves took the decades of all that fan canon (expanded universe/novels/comic books/toys/trading cards/video games/fan obsessed wiki entries/overtly detailed field manuals) and tossed all that poo poo in the trash to rebuild the mythos for a new audience. Which is why "true fans" hate the prequels and prometheus and wear it like a badge of honor (see, RLM and every defender who are "OT trilogy purists" ~oh and the Disney movies~), as if hating a film for ruining their ideas of what the franchise represented is a unique take on things. I'm looking forward to it because I like Blomkamp's visuals and directing style and I want to see what he comes up with (and some of the concept art he's shared looks great), but at the same time his whole "ignore Alien3, bring back Ripley and Hicks" premise reeks of a childish reaction to 'Alien3' and a lack of understanding of what that movie was trying to say and do. Most fans I'm aware of liked Prometheus well enough, their criticisms with it were problems with its execution, not its attention to detail or slavish adherence to "canon". I like Prometheus, but I feel it would have worked better as a standalone movie and not tied to the Alien "franchise". I feel that had the movie not tried to tie itself to Alien, it would have had more freedom to do really crazy, interesting stuff. The links it has with Alien aren't particularly interesting or revelatory, and don't serve to improve either movie. Prometheus is at its best when it's doing its own thing, not showing us "the true origins" behind the Space Jockey. You've got this weird hate-boner for Alien "fans" as if they're some kind of malignant tumor that actively drags down the series or engages in rampant extreme "sperg" behavior like your stereotypical Star Wars/Star Trek nerds. Sure there's some fans who fail to see the forest for the trees, but the vast majority of fans nowadays like and dislike Alien stuff for the same reasons as the general public. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 17:34
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I prefer the kind of fans who just unironically like everything in a franchise. They might not "get" the source material anymore than the haters, but at least they're positive and fun to talk to.
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Dec 17, 2016 17:59
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Groovelord Neato posted:"fandom" types are the ones that like the prequels since it's in the same universe. they're beholden to creators. slaves to canon. they're the tv tropes types. The prequels violate the concept of canon by showing the Jedi, at the legendary height of their power protecting peace and justice, to be a bunch of losers obsessed with maintaining their very own star wars wiki.  Pictured: Devoted fan of the Jedi attempts to google 'the place where all the bad things are coming from,' and finds only a hexagon, surrounding emptiness. The wiki is lying to him, because the wiki is the true source of evil. Later, other devotees of the grand star wars wiki will attempt to assassinate the democratically-elected leader of the republic because they believe him to be of the wrong religion. Hbomberguy fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 18:20
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Xenomrph posted:This is pretty far from the truth, especially with the Alien franchise/fandom. There's a ton of people who aren't particularly excited about Blomkamp's movie, specifically because of how "fan fiction-y" it feels. This is mixing up two completely different arguments. Prometheus is very explicitly about how canonical 'expanded universe' plot materials can never satisfy. Fans desire more information - more Alien-branded content - but information alone is worthless if you are unable to interpret it. Prometheus is about how fandom can't make you happy. Contrary to people's complaints, having a shitload of plot information about the space jockey - right down to a DNA scan - doesn't explain anything. That's why people get these incompatible thoughts about how Prometheus 'shows too much', yet still has 'too many mysteries'. It's perceived as simultaneously too clear and too confusing, because people are having huge trouble interpreting the imagery. The complaint about Blomkamp is entirely different, but not unrelated. It is that Blomkamp is violating plot canon by introducing an alternate timeline/alternate universe. The complaint is that his film will be 'fanfiction' - noncanon. So even though you admit that his film will undoubtedly be stylish and interesting (i.e. a good movie), those traits are dwarfed by what you deem a 'childish' disrespect towards authority (be it 20th Century Fox's authority or, slightly more charitably, David Fincher's). SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 18:24
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:This is mixing up two completely different arguments. The complaint about Blomkamp's movie isn't about "canon", it's that it shows a lack of understanding of 'Alien3'. "Fans" didn't like Alien3 because it killed Hicks and Ripley, without understanding why it did that. At least Michael Biehn has come to understand that killing Hicks wasn't on its face a bad move, even if he has issues with the way it was done (and his criticism isn't without merit, although I think there was a very deliberate reason for why the movie handled things the way it did). Blomkamp's premise feels childish because of how fan-fiction-y it feels, as if it's coming from a fan who hasn't learned to understand (let alone accept) what Alien3 was trying to do and feels it's their duty to correct some sort of injustice. It's doubly ironic given Alien3's themes of loss, grief, and acceptance that Blomkamp seems incapable of getting over a 25 year old movie.
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Dec 17, 2016 19:03
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Xenomrph posted:This is pretty far from the truth, especially with the Alien franchise/fandom. There's a ton of people who aren't particularly excited about Blomkamp's movie, specifically because of how "fan fiction-y" it feels. Once again, Xenomrph is right. There isn't really an "ALIEN CANON" thing. It's all up in the air pretty much. Except with the events in the films. So like, yeah, at one point the Nostromo touches down on LV-426, finds an Alien, everyone dies. Later Ripley goes back, finds more Aliens, people die, she kills the queen. Later, Ripley ends up in a Prison planet, another Alien, she dies. Later she's resurrected, more aliens, ect. That's canon. That's all the canon the series really has. Also, I hate the Star Wars prequels because they don't work for me as films. I don't like really anything about them from their visual style, to the characters. I can be perfectly content with watching the originals while not really caring about the prequels. Which I believe is what people feel about Prometheus as well. I've rarely heard of "Ugh they ruined the Alien canon!" outside of "I wish they didn't show a Space Jockey.
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