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Laws governing wages were around in the medieval period, socialism is not 'the government does a thing.'
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Dec 16, 2016 19:36
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One of my favourite little stories from the election was a scandanavian left-liberal party being annoyed with Sanders for calling their left-liberalism 'socialism.'
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Dec 16, 2016 19:38
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Peel posted:Laws governing wages were around in the medieval period, socialism is not 'the government does a thing.' Not everything Government does is an exercise of control over Private Industry. Socialism is Government control over the means of the production. That can mean a minimum wage, a requirement to do or refrain from X, total command and control, or outright ownership. It's a matter of degree. It's a type of policy, not a state of matter.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:41
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I think you mean liberalism. All of those things that you mentioned are not socialism.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:45
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LegoPirateNinja posted:Not everything Government does is an exercise of control over Private Industry. this is not true at all
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Dec 16, 2016 19:46
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by that metric, fascism can also be socialism
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Dec 16, 2016 19:46
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The Kingfish posted:I think you mean liberalism. All of those things that you mentioned are not socialism. Liberalism is a REMOVAL of those things!
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Dec 16, 2016 19:46
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LegoPirateNinja posted:Liberalism is a REMOVAL of those things! No. It's the presence of private bourgeois control of the economy.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:49
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LegoPirateNinja posted:Not everything Government does is an exercise of control over Private Industry. That's...wrong. None of those things change the reality of owners extracting value from laborers, they just make it slightly less profitable.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:49
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The Kingfish posted:No. It's the presence of private bourgeois control of the economy. That's what I just fuckin said
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Dec 16, 2016 19:50
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LegoPirateNinja posted:Socialism is Government control over the means of the production. That can mean a minimum wage, a requirement to do or refrain from X, total command and control, or outright ownership. It's a matter of degree. It's a type of policy, not a state of matter. Your definition is too broad. Socialism is democratic proletariat control over the means of production. If it's not democratic or it's democratic control but proletariat are not fairly represented, then it is not socialism.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:53
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LegoPirateNinja posted:That's what I just fuckin said what? no, that's not what you said
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Dec 16, 2016 19:53
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Ruzihm posted:Actually socialism is proletariat democratic control over the means of production. I'd call that Communism.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:55
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Karl Barks posted:what? no, that's not what you said Liberalism = Reduction of Government Control = More Control for Private Industry.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:55
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LegoPirateNinja posted:I'd call that Communism. My understanding is that communism is a particular subset of socialism where there is no money, class, or state. Which means that communism is only a hypothetical situation at this time.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:58
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This conversation had gotten weird
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Dec 16, 2016 19:59
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LegoPirateNinja posted:Liberalism = Reduction of Government Control = More Control for Private Industry. No.
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Dec 16, 2016 19:59
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NumberLast posted:This conversation had gotten weird 
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Dec 16, 2016 20:02
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nice
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Dec 16, 2016 20:02
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i... believe in horseshoe theory now
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Dec 16, 2016 20:04
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anybody know when Kotkin's Vol. II is dropping im jonesing for that poo poo
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Dec 16, 2016 20:05
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Dec 16, 2016 20:08
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Karl Barks posted:i... believe in horseshoe theory now
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Dec 16, 2016 20:08
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Ruzihm posted:My understanding is that communism is a particular subset of socialism where there is no money, class, or state. Which means that communism is only a hypothetical situation at this time. Well no, the initial post which kicked this off (before the low effort troll) said it: The goal of socialism is communism. Socialism is the creation of proletarian democracy where workers control the means of production as well as state power and use the state against the bourgeoisie. As more socialist states emerge and the bourgeois class disappears entirely then the state (I. E. A weapon of class power against other classes, not an overarching democratic organisational structure) disappears and so communism develops from the organised peace and abundance.
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Dec 16, 2016 20:26
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Watching They Live for the first time ever. Zizek was right this movie is radical as hell. I can't believe it even got made although it seemingly had a pretty low budget.
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Dec 16, 2016 20:42
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namesake posted:Well no, the initial post which kicked this off (before the low effort troll) said it: The goal of socialism is communism. Socialism is the creation of proletarian democracy where workers control the means of production as well as state power and use the state against the bourgeoisie. As more socialist states emerge and the bourgeois class disappears entirely then the state (I. E. A weapon of class power against other classes, not an overarching democratic organisational structure) disappears and so communism develops from the organised peace and abundance. well, there doesn't have to be a state for there to be socialism. I'd say that revolutionary spain was socialist while it lasted ~ I agree that communism is the goal of socialism tho. I admit that my earlier definition including "proletariat control" precludes communism from being a type of socialism, so maybe it's better worded as "non-bourgeoisie control...".
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Dec 16, 2016 20:49
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130 has not turned out to be a very good page so far. Can we please get a mod in here to purge the counterrevolutionary wrongthink? edit:let's try to make 131 a little more correct
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Dec 16, 2016 21:34
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jarofpiss posted:130 has not turned out to be a very good page so far. Can we please get a mod in here to purge the counterrevolutionary wrongthink? 
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Dec 16, 2016 21:41
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holy macaroni
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Dec 16, 2016 21:52
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Did you know they had memes before the internet?
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Dec 16, 2016 21:59
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Dec 16, 2016 22:04
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Thanks for the quote help everyone. This thread is insane, but thanks all the same.
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Dec 16, 2016 22:12
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Well, if you guys really want the simple marxist definitions.. Socialism is dictatorship of the proletariat. Capitalism is dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. The terms just explain who the 'ruling class' is. Communism would be when there is no class, and therefore no 'state', since a 'state' is a weapon of the current 'ruling class'. There's my archaic-marxist explaination, idk..
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Dec 16, 2016 23:44
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MizPiz posted:Did you know they had memes before the internet? It's good to know we're following in the footsteps of the OG Ironyboys!
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Dec 17, 2016 02:06
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The Kingfish posted:Watching They Live for the first time ever. Zizek was right this movie is radical as hell. I can't believe it even got made although it seemingly had a pretty low budget. I like that the first thing he does after becoming woke is immediately shoot up some bankers and cops.
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Dec 17, 2016 02:15
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Stale Saltines posted:I like that the first thing he does after becoming woke is immediately shoot up some bankers and cops. And the last thing he does is shoot up a tv station full of quislings. That movie was so loving good.
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Dec 17, 2016 02:57
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https://twitter.com/BlackAutonomist/status/809908108516610049
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Dec 17, 2016 03:27
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horseshoe theory is good now
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Dec 17, 2016 03:34
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lol at communism being the peak
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Dec 17, 2016 03:43
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Impermanent posted:However, he did once advance a theoretical system with non transferable "labor tokens" you'd exchange for stuff. It has (rightfully imho) been mostly discarded. I thought that was a Proudhan thing
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Dec 17, 2016 03:45
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