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This update has some good music, also I love that Golden Slaughter gets cut off when Battler starts having enough of this bullshit and Beatrice has a look on her face saying "I may have gone too far in a few places".
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Dec 15, 2016 23:43
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ProfessorProf posted:
I wonder what hosed up thing is going to have to happen to make Virgilius open her eyes.
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Dec 16, 2016 00:12
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Just marathoned this over the last couple of days, and it's been quite a ride. I've never even heard of this thing before. Going to have to think a bit more about the locked room stuff, but I did notice this. ProfessorProf posted:That is indeed a translation artifact. Allow me to step in on Beatrice's behalf to clarify: Of course, she is not counting herself, a weird butler, anime stake girls, or a theoretical horde of imaginary goat-headed men. Because they're "magical beings", right, and not humans, as if that's something that could exist. Except... we have three servants who are also claimed to be "furniture", magical beings, created by Evil Kidnappin' Grandpa via his delusional magical practices. Beatrice goes on at great length about how they are not human at all! The only one whose humanity she may have vaguely acknowledged is Shannon, and she later denies it anyway. So, by her own words, those 18 people cannot possibly cover those three servants, meaning that there could easily be three more people on the island than we've seen! Of course, one could say that this is some kind of translation difficulty instead, and that really whatever word she was using instead of "human" ought to cover magical servants too... but then there would have to be more, because of her completely fake anime squad! And one could say that they are actually human after all, but in that case, all that magical bullshit that happened with those servants is null and void! Now, it's going to be more interesting to solve the foolish mystery stories she's been telling Battler using only the 18 suspects we've got, but even so, this isn't the sort of mistake I'd expect from an infallible witch, if such a ridiculous being actually existed.
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Dec 16, 2016 04:27
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idonotlikepeas posted:Of course, she is not counting herself, a weird butler, anime stake girls, or a theoretical horde of imaginary goat-headed men. Because they're "magical beings", right, and not humans, as if that's something that could exist. Except... we have three servants who are also claimed to be "furniture", magical beings, created by Evil Kidnappin' Grandpa via his delusional magical practices. Beatrice goes on at great length about how they are not human at all! The only one whose humanity she may have vaguely acknowledged is Shannon, and she later denies it anyway. So, by her own words, those 18 people cannot possibly cover those three servants, meaning that there could easily be three more people on the island than we've seen! Of course, one could say that this is some kind of translation difficulty instead, and that really whatever word she was using instead of "human" ought to cover magical servants too... but then there would have to be more, because of her completely fake anime squad! And one could say that they are actually human after all, but in that case, all that magical bullshit that happened with those servants is null and void! In order for Battler to make that argument he would have to accept the existence of magic. That's a win for Beatrice, so it doesn't matter whether or not there are more people on the island.
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Dec 16, 2016 05:48
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Not at all! It's simply a matter of what Beatrice herself believes and the way she uses language. If she claims both that the servants are inhuman furniture and that there are 18 humans on the island, it's consistent. That doesn't mean that Battler himself has to accept that the servants are inhuman, only that Beatrice would refer to them that way. Edit: Let's take a look at the Turn of the Golden Witch locked rooms. I know these were already talked about, so I apologize for treading over ground that's at least been partially covered, but I'm trying to work my way into the right frame of mind for this thing. First, we have the Halloween Murders in the chapel. The actual cause of death isn't clear, because of the post-mortem mutilations. It could have been done with poison, or via gun, or even by surprise with a knife. Since there's a decent time window, whoever did it has plenty of time to set up the scene and fill them with candy and draw the magic circle. The only real difficulties would be 1) why someone would do this and 2) how the murderer got into the locked chapel. The second question is probably best to answer first, since Battler already solved this one for us; Maria had the key, but then she slept, and the key could easily have gotten out of her control for a while before being discovered in the morning. Before proceeding to a suspect and motive on the first one, how about the second. Jessica and Kanon are killed in her room. Kanon is suspected of committing the murder, because his body has vanished, but red text assures us he's dead, and because Battler accepts that, we have to provisionally accept the red text rule as well. Unlike Battler, we aren't hampered by the idea that none of the 18 people could have done it; he's laboring under the delusion that murderers are some other species of person, when really all it takes is for someone to be subjected to a stress they can't endure. (And we've got plenty of stressed-out people around here, and none of them seem particularly stable.) So it would be easy enough to bring in any of the servants as an accomplice and say that the door was locked with one of their keys, but I don't think that's necessary just yet. What happens when Jessica's body is discovered? ProfessorProf posted:...Aunt Rosa walked around the room as though looking for something, or as though she was collecting her thoughts. Then, she found something on the side table by the bed, and picked it up. So Rosa wanders around as if looking for something, and just happens to stumble across a key. Awful convenient. This presents a very simple solution: Rosa picks up Jessica's key at some point before this. Jessica, as we discover, had Kanon's key, and therefore didn't need her own key to get into the room. Rosa murders them in the room (one at a time or together; the anime slapfight is of course a fabrication, so we don't need to assume they were killed at the same time). She leaves, taking the key with her and locking the door, and pockets it. Later, when searching the room, she slips the key out of her pocket and "discovers" it. Everyone else had just searched the room and not found a key, after all, so it's odd that she'd suddenly run across one, but not impossible. And her immediate accusation of Kanon takes the focus off of that. This also makes Rosa the likely murderer in the first instance, and that makes perfect sense, because she'd have no particular trouble manipulating Maria and stealing her key, and of course she's most likely to have a freaky complex about Halloween and an opportunity to collect candy to stuff into her siblings' bellies (since she had to buy some for her daughter anyway). Now, the question arises, why would Rosa choose to do all this? The most obvious answer is, of course, money. She'd probably justify it to herself as saving her daughter (and that scene at the end where she's fighting off an army of "demons" to help Maria while Maria tells her she was the witch all along is certainly telling from a psychological perspective). She needs to kill all her siblings, because she's the youngest, and killing Jessica as well cements her claim. Now, Rosa herself argues this, by saying that if she were really the murderer, all she'd have to do is shoot the remaining kids and come up with some excuse. But, of course, this is exactly wrong. If Rosa is the only survivor left at the end, the police are definitely going to have some serious questions for her. Of course, she needs to leave some other people who can be suspected, and she needs to spend some time cementing her innocence in their mind by "investigating" the murders. And who better to serve as a patsy than the lovely occultist dad who has been raving about a murder ceremony to the point where he literally inscribed a plaque in his home with it? The one who probably has access to all areas of the grounds anyway, at least as far as the police are concerned? If he's executed by the state, she gets the money, and even before that she probably can arrange to be in charge of his affairs while he's at trial or something. In any event, Rosa separates the children and the servants (which definitely does not make her look less suspicious). This is followed by more fake magic bullshit that can be safely discounted; note that it is not reported as magic by the actual people involved at that time, only that "Kanon" showed up, but wasn't really himself, and then Nanjo and Kumasawa were killed, and then the fake Kanon disappeared. Of course, Nanjo and Kumasawa's bodies are not found at that time either. It's entirely possible that their story is a fabrication, possibly concocted under threat by Rosa. There's another locked room here, but regardless of whether the story is real or fake, that isn't an obstacle because Nanjo had a key and it's easy enough to lock the door after leaving. (The only reason Battler couldn't use that was his insistence that nobody he knows was involved.) We have external evidence that the two servants were already killed in the form of blood that could have come from literally anywhere and a note... that is also discovered by Rosa, meaning she could have easily written that in advance and produced it at the right time. This is followed by another anime bullshit battle which our detective doesn't witness, after which Genji comes and announces that he's found the bodies of Nanjo and Kumasawa. So at this point we have three groups and I don't believe Rosa has had time to murder anyone else, which means that she must have at least one accomplice, and given how the groups shook out, this probably has to be Genji. Given the show of loyalty he made to her earlier, this could work, and it's possible for him to have retained a key, too, given that Rosa was the person he handed it to. Sleight of hand could easily have made it possible for her to let him keep his, or slip him one back before he left the room. This allows him to lock the door where George and Shannon are killed (George being another strong claimant for the money). Then Battler drinks some liquor (Genji points this out, in fact), and begins to see the weird bullshit himself. If Genji's in on with Rosa, perhaps he drugs him at this point. And then he conveniently starts believing in witches offscreen, without us seeing the arguments used to convince him. Suuuure. It isn't perfect (I'd prefer a single culprit, for instance), but so far I don't see any real need for a witch in episode 2, at least. idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Dec 16, 2016 |
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Dec 16, 2016 05:50
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"...It is probably the key to this... to Milady's room."
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 October 5th, 1986, 7:00 AM  BGM: Voiceless However, when we woke up, there was an unbelievably cruel reality waiting for us...   George-aniki and Jessica were crying over Shannon-chan and Kanon-kun's deaths. Right now, everyone who was alive had gathered in the lobby on the first floor of the guesthouse. And there were 12 people there. Unbelievable, right? There were 18 until yesterday. And in one night, a third of that number had lost their lives... I eventually sobered up from my agitation and, along with my lack of sleep from being woken up so early in the morning, I was beginning to feel a faint sense of unreality. I want to think this is some kind of bad dream... My cheap escapism keeps telling me that over and over. Maria had gone back to sleep on the sofa Rosa was sitting in. Rather than her having nerves of steel, she probably genuinely hadn't had enough sleep.  ...Apparently relics from a time he'd been obsessed with Westerns, there were four guns altogether. Those had been split up among the four siblings: Uncle Krauss, Aunt Eva, my dad, and Aunt Rosa. Paper boxes filled with bullets lay on the table, and the siblings were silently loading them.  "...It's a little scary. Even now, touching one of these, I get the feeling Dad'll yell 'Don't touch that!' and hit me." "Well, isn't that great? No matter how much you touch them, you won't be hit again."  "Well, I never did expect Kinzo-san to die normally in his bed, but even so... it is too horrible..." "Hey. I wonder if that really was Father...? I think it might be a different person's corpse, used as a substitute to trick us..." "...No, it was Father, without a doubt. You saw his toes, right? Generally speaking, there aren't many humans with six toes on both feet." "But... that doesn't mean that such people don't exist. I've heard that polydactyly isn't that rare a disease. He was a man who liked large-scale tricks, right? He might have obtained a corpse from somewhere that had the same number of toes on both feet." "Ridiculous. Why would he do something like that...?!" "...I'd agree if it was a normal person... But this is Father we're talkin' about. You can't be sure Kyrie-san's talkin' nonsense." "...After all, burning a corpse makes it hard to identify. Still, there should be a few ways to examine him from his teeth and bone structure. If the police investigated, of course they'd be able to know whose body it was right away." "The problem... is that we need a telephone engineer more than the police right now." "...The boats probably won't come in this typhoon. So, will they arrive tomorrow?" "Most likely, the boat will come again at 9:00 tomorrow. Then, I believe we will be able to contact the police." "...It's the same for us...and the culprit. Until the typhoon passes, this island will be closed off." BGM: Dead Angle First, early that morning. In various places throughout the mansion, a total of six corpses, including Grandfather and all the servants, had been found one after another.  The servants had died, each shut up in the rooms throughout the mansion that had magic circles drawn on them. The cause of death for the servants was uncertain, but according to Doctor Nanjo's diagnosis, there was a high likelihood that they had been stabbed by something like a spear... or possibly shot with a gun. That was why the adults had started arming themselves with Winchesters. And what made the situation even more chaotic... was the fact that the telephones had become unusable. It was unknown if lightning had caused them to break down or if the culprit had broken them. At any rate, since contact with the outside had been cut off, we couldn't reach the police. So until the typhoon passes and a boat comes tomorrow morning, we'll have to protect ourselves. After all, Rokkenjima is now isolated by the typhoon. And just as we're stuck on the island, so is the culprit.  ...So right when the adults had been in an uproar over money, the murderer had been killing under the same roof... They say Aunt Natsuhi's been strict about locking the doors and windows at the night. And yet, some suspicious person had entered and left the mansion. The adults had decided that the inside of the mansion was too large to be safe, so they had pulled out the guns and moved to the guesthouse, where we had been. Which brings us to the present. George-aniki had begged to see Shannon-chan's corpse, but the adults had refused, saying that he mustn't do so until the police arrived. That wasn't just because they wanted to seal all the rooms to preserve the scene. After all, the culprit who had killed six people was wandering about the mansion. To the Ushiromiya family right now, the mansion that should've been their home... was now a danger zone that an unknown murderer could enter and leave at will... After all, it's a huge mansion. There are plenty of blind spots and dark places, and it's too vast to guarantee absolute safety with this number of people. Relatively speaking, the guesthouse was much smaller. It had two above-ground stories. Something like 10 or so rooms? Apparently, it had originally been constructed to serve as a small hotel, as part of the plan to turn this island into a resort. So, it was easier to know what was going on everywhere inside it, and it'd be easier to keep safe. It made for a good place to hole up in.  After all, the culprit had proclaimed so in a letter. I heard that a Western-style envelope with the family crest, just like the one Maria claimed to have received from Beatrice yesterday, had been found in the boiler room where Grandfather's corpse had been discovered. This was what the letter said.   So that there will be no misunderstandings. The game I seek is whether or not you can solve the riddle of the epitaph, not whether or not you can catch me. If you do not solve the riddle of the epitaph, the pitiful sacrifices will increase in number. It would be more wise to spend your time solving the epitaph than searching for me. If no one can solve the riddle of the epitaph, no one will survive. If a person appears with skill enough to solve the riddle of the epitaph, I will give them all the gold of the Golden Land, the Ushiromiya family headship, and all of my power. I was the one who succeeded the Ushiromiya family headship from Kinzo-sama. And I look forward to seeing who will receive the headship from me. ——The Golden Witch, Beatrice. ...This riddle of the epitaph was... that thing. That strange epitaph written by the portrait of the witch on display in the hall of the mansion. Grandfather was the one who had it written, and the person who solved it would, supposedly, be given the inheritance or the hidden gold or something like that. Ever since it was first put on display there several years ago, the relatives had secretly tried to solve that riddle, despite saying on the surface that the whole idea was silly. However, up until today, no one had solved it. We were once again being urged to solve that unintelligible riddle, and this time, we were faced with the threat that we'd all be killed if we didn't solve it. If that wasn't a 'game', what else could it be...?  However, there was a good chance they were armed, and there might not be just one of them. And, while they might have been able to kill more than six people, they had stopped at 6. The opinion that won out in the end... was that we should avoid needlessly antagonizing the culprit, and hole up in a safe place while we waited for the police to arrive... After the adults carefully checked that the doors and windows in the guesthouse were locked, they set up camp in the lobby. As they loaded their guns to distract themselves from the tension, their expressions showed that they were already fatigued from this long day, which had still barely begun... There was nothing for me to do. Now, all I could do was be taught how to use a gun, to prepare for the off-chance of something happening that led to an excess of guns... ...That's fine. Just obediently stay there, me and the rest of you.  BGM: Where  "Most likely, that child has carefully studied your moves from the last game... and has made an optimal move by taking the pieces you were most likely to suspect from the start." "...That makes sense. That was true both last time and the time before that. The servants, who know everything about the mansion and who walk around with keys, always fall into the most suspicious category of people." "...A good example in the last game would be Jessica's closed room. If I'd only accepted that a servant was the culprit, that wouldn't even have been a closed room." "And so, that child went straight for them, probably to block off a method of escape you'd be likely to attempt sooner or later." "Beato already proclaimed in red that there are no more than 18 people on this island. In other words, it's time to give up on that. Now I've got to suspect one of the 18." "...That child will probably come at you by stealing the pieces for all the 18, while also making an appearance as a 19th person who shouldn't exist, for then you would be forced to accept that your opponent is a witch. After all, now that the intimidation approach has failed, trying to force you to surrender by showing you magic, the only remaining option is a frontal attack." "...Perfect. Bluffing won't work anymore." "Be careful. Deception is what witches are best at. No matter what your opponent says or shows you, it will not be able to threaten the truth that you believe in. Don't forget that." "...Sure. As if I'd fall for the same moves over and over. Come on out, Beatrice. Let's get started!!!" BGM: Answer  "...To think we would end up having Madam as our foe. This will not be easy, Milady. Our moves will be read thoroughly." "I care not. By now, Teacher's moves are all old-fashioned classics. There is nothing to fear." "...So, just what moves can you make beyond the classics I taught you? I look forward to seeing, Beatrice." "...*cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle* You okay with this, Battleer? Can someone who denies witches really accept a witch as a strategist...?" "Your stupid provocation is pointless. This is my advisor... no, my second. That doesn't change one bit... that this is a fistfight between you and me." "I understand. One as wobbly as yourself probably needs training wheels on his bicycle. Do as you like." "Come, let us begin!! It's your turn!" BGM: Dancing Pipe "The first corpse discovered was Shannon's. She was found in the parlor on the first floor of the mansion. The door and windows were locked, and a closed room was established." "...Beato, I need some details. Let's reconfirm the definition of a closed room." "Indeed. The term 'closed room' refers to a room where the inside and the outside are completely cut off from each other. Naturally, it will be impossible to even affect things across that boundary line, much less enter or escape across it. This includes an all-inclusive denial of the existence of hidden doors, as well as all possibility of intervention from the outside. Henceforth, this shall be referred to as... 'Beatrice's Closed Room Definition'!" "Let's focus in a bit. How do you define 'all possibility of intervention from the outside'?" "I refer to all types of direct intervention from the outside, such as using a fishing line or a long, thin rod. In conclusion, there are no gaps in the doors and windows through which such tricks will work." "I wonder about that. Even if there wasn't a gap, you should be able to interfere with radio waves, like with a remote control, right?" "Very well. I'll add to this definition that interference due to radio waves and related methods of remote control shall be impossible." "There's also an extension telephone in the parlor. A device connected to that wouldn't count as remote control, right?!" "The phones are already unusable, are they not? Ah, whatever. I'll include that too. All direct and indirect methods of interfering with the inside of the closed room from the outside of the room are impossible." "What about a voice or a knock? Those should be able to interfere from the outside without someone entering the room, right?" "...Even though it's a closed room, it probably isn't impossible for someone to knock or call out. The closed room definition does not cover whether transmission of intent across the boundary is possible or not." "In other words, you can't make it so your definition includes the blockage of all methods of communication with the outside?" "That is indeed the case." "Understood. So, Shannon-chan's parlor satisfies Beatrice's Closed Room Definition, right?" "Correct." "...Closed Room Definition, understood. Continue, Virgilia." "Yes. Shannon's corpse was in possession of one master key. The relatives who discovered her collected this." "Repetition request for Beato. How many master keys this time?" "Which means this still isn't a closed room. There are still four master keys left. It just means that after Shannon-chan was murdered, one of the other four keys locked it." "Correct. And, it wasn't only a master key that was found." "Yes. Alongside the corpse, there was a Western envelope with the family crest. Instead of a letter, the key to a guest room on the second floor was inside it." "...The key to a second floor guest room... The only key other than the master key that can open the door to that second floor guest room. Is that definition correct?" "Indeed. There is no problem. And, unlike the master keys, only one of those exists." "In other words, apart from the five master keys, there will be only one key that can unlock certain rooms." "...In other words, this is a message telling them to go to the second floor guest room next? So the adults moved to the second floor guest room, right?" "Yes." "Inside, Kumasawa's corpse was discovered. It was a closed room. One that satisfied Beatrice's Closed Room Definition. Kumasawa was in possession of one master key. The relatives collected this. And like in Shannon's case, there was a Western envelope discovered alongside her. Inside was the key to the third floor waiting room. The relatives moved to the third floor waiting room." "So, there was a magic circle on the door to the third floor waiting room, and that door was locked?" "Yes. Inside the room, Gohda's corpse was discovered. The room was a closed room. One that satisfied Beatrice's Closed Room Definition. Gohda was in possession of one master key. The relatives collected this. And like up until now, a Western envelope with the family seal was discovered, inside of which was the key to the second floor VIP room. The relatives moved to the second floor VIP room." "...What's going on here...? What are you planning...?" "*cackle*cackle* There's no need to glare, is there? It may be a closed room, but there are still multiple master keys that can open it, correct? And besides the master keys, I've even given you keys specific to each room." "...I don't like where this is going. But I'm starting to see how it'll turn out. So it continues like this for all six people?" "One master key was collected. The key to the underground boiler room was discovered. They moved to the underground boiler room. Inside the underground boiler room, Kinzo's corpse was discovered. The key to the chapel was discovered. They moved to the chapel. Inside the chapel, Kanon's corpse was discovered. One master key was collected. The key to the first floor parlor was discovered. With this, our reconstruction of how all six corpses were discovered is complete." "An addendum. Along with the key to the chapel, a letter was enclosed in the Western envelope found near Kinzo's corpse. The contents of the letter were as you saw. It further urged the relatives to solve the riddle of the epitaph." "...In that case, what's going on? If the last place, where Kanon was, had the key to the very first room, the parlor, where Shannon was... That makes six closed rooms, all tied together, right?" "In other words, the six closed rooms form one massive closed room, and all of the master keys as well as the individual room keys are shut up inside it...!"
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Dec 16, 2016 14:26
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Oh hey, another new track. Oddly catchy, this one. Reminds me of "Turning Purple" from Star Control 2 in some aspects (the original, not the Precursors remix). I should probably react to the update itself, but I'm not in the mental condition to even begin unpacking this instance of the closed room. Other than the fact that Kinzo's body being the only one without a master key may or may not be significant.
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Dec 16, 2016 15:35
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This is my favorite closed room in the series. It's so diabolical yet elegant in its simple design.
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Dec 16, 2016 15:40
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What a beautiful closed room murder. Prof, the profiles on the six who died should be updated.
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Dec 16, 2016 15:44
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Thanks for the reminder, I'll update when I get home.
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Dec 16, 2016 15:45
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Nice, a closed room ourobouros! So the most obvious solution is probably that the victims could have coordinated this and killed themselves. That solves the closed room problem, but that doesn't account for motivation. Why would they do that? Considering what we've seen so far, it wouldn't be totally unbelievable for the "furniture" types to be willing to commit suicide if they were ordered to do so by Kinzo. And maybe in Gohda's case, he was convinced to do it because he was confronted with a strong motive to do so. Wasn't he booted from his last job for some shady reason? I should check. Kumasawa... is interesting. There's a possibility that, since she's "Virgilius," she had contact with Beatrice 2.0: helping to raise her, feed her, etc. At least, that would be the non-magical reason for her association with being Beatrice's mentor. Maybe her motive for suicide has something to do with that, and guilt about the accident that Rosa spoke about earlier? And I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to kill himself for the lulz, so that's that, I guess. All of this is probably USELESS and has more to do with the fact that I just finished watching Dangan Ronpa 3. Go ahead and pick this apart. Edit: OK, that's way simpler. vvvvvvvv witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Dec 16, 2016 |
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Dec 16, 2016 16:16
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I think one person could pull this off. They could kill the other five, using their own master key to lock the doors, and then lock their own door before killing themselves. I'd like to think that it was Genji who would be the killer in this case. He's the most loyal of Kinzo's servants, and given what we've seen of him, he could probably catch his victims off guard, assuming no one else was in on this plan.
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Dec 16, 2016 17:02
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SardonicTyrant posted:I think one person could pull this off. They could kill the other five, using their own master key to lock the doors, and then lock their own door before killing themselves. Can you explain how genji could shoot or stab himself without leaving any obvious weapons around?
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Dec 16, 2016 17:23
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^^ Oh, poo poo, yet another problem: we don't know if any weapons were on the scene, or even how they died. So another point: were there any weapons on scene? And the conditions of the bodies should be known too, because my theory still fits if it were a slow acting poison or something. Wow, Dancing Pipe is catchy; both this new tune and Battler getting his groove back are strangely invigorating. My, what a doozey of a locked room murder. As before, there are only five master keys held by the servants, and beyond those, only one key that unlocks the door- there is no other way into the room from the outside. Lets see if I can break this down by rooms and keys: -First, Shannon was found in the parlor on the first floor, with a master key and the second floor guest room key. Meaning there are four master keys left. -Kumasawa was found in the second floor guest room, with a master key and the key to the third floor waiting room. Three master keys left. -Gohda is found in the Third floor waiting room, with a master key and the key to the second floor VIP room. Two master keys. -Then, Genji in the Second floor VIP room, with a master key and the boiler room key. Only one master key left. -Kinzo found in the boiler room, no master key, but but the key to the chapel. Still one master key. -Kanon, found in the chapel with the last master key, and the key to the first floor parlor room, as well as the letter. Meaning, of course, that today's blackguard had to either carry the first floor parlor room key all the way to the chapel, or work backwards through the corpses and only leave the keys afterwards. But the only available suspects are the kids and the adults, non of which left each others company and all of which were busy through the night, leaving the latter option functionally impossible. The obvious solution is that we have a coordinated suicide on our hands, in which the servants kill each other and arrange the bodies, but one big problem with that- the first and last victims, Shannon and Kanon. They are the least likely to kill themselves due to their circumstances- Shannon has her life with George in front of her and Kanon hates all these fuckers- nor would they have anything to do with each other's deaths, so it's hard to imagine Kanon just carefully arranging Shannon's body and then dutifully killing himself in the chapel after it's all done. The other problem is Kanon's relative lack of physical strength, demonstrated in the first chapter in Kanon's very first appearance: in order for the suicide theory to work, we have to allow that the same kid who had trouble with an overfull wheelbarrow would be able to arrange Genji's body and drag Kinzo's body all the way down to the boiler room from the second floor without anyone noticing, or leaving any traces. In fact, how Kinzo's body is handled is a question. It could be that he just went down to the boiler to off himself, but we were shown that he died first, and as doubtful as Beato's Magical Mystery Visions are as to what exactly happened, they haven't actually been proven to be wrong about time of death. So, if he died first, he would have to be moved to the boiler room first, while there were still people to lug him around without difficulty- wait a minute, there was no master key left with him, just the key to the chapel. Has it been established that the door to the chapel can be opened with a master key? If it can, they probably did just prepare Kinzo's body first and left the chapel key... but what happened next? Kanon is still the difficult part- I suppose I could buy that he might have killed himself over grief over letting Shannon die, but who locked his door if they cant be locked from the inside? And why would he acquiesce to Shannon's killer; he's always died either before or at the same time as a girl, and he's always gone down swinging. But if they both died, then who locked the chapel door? Perhaps I'm being too trapped by the order of things, and it was Genji did all this- he's the prime suspect, and the one who would kill himself first if he had to. So maybe... Genji does Shannon and Kanon first, then locks Kanon in the room with the chapel key and Shannon in with the 2nd guest room key, both with their master keys: this leaves three. Either before that or directly after, they had moved Kinzo's corpse to the Boiler Room as they had enough bodies then. Then, either Genji and Kumasawa ganged up on Gohda and arranged his corpse, leaving Kumasawa to kill herself or Genji to kill her, or Genji killed them both, and left the 2nd floor VIP room and the 3rd floor waiting room keys be their corpses, leaving Genji to just stroll to the 2nd floor VIP room to lock it, and kill himself with the boiler room key. Bam, closed room ourobouros. Of course, that all depends on if they were actually killed in that order, and the rooms can be locked from the inside without keys. I assume they would, but this is a weird house operating under weird rules, so repitiotion requested: did these people die in the order they were found, and can the doors be locked from inside? resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Dec 16, 2016 |
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Dec 16, 2016 17:29
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This isn't about the latest trick or for anyone in particular but a general reminder as to what may happen when you're so self-satisfied with an answer that you stop thinking 
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Dec 16, 2016 17:32
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resurgam40 posted:repitiotion requested: did these people die in the order they were found, and can the doors be locked from inside? Refusing to answer when asked is one of the pleasures permitted to a witch.
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Dec 16, 2016 17:34
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edit: ok fine
oath2order fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Dec 16, 2016 |
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Dec 16, 2016 17:38
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resurgam40 posted:Has it been established that the door to the chapel can be opened with a master key? If it can, they probably did just prepare Kinzo's body first and left the chapel key... but what happened next? Guess it's time for you to reread earlier episodes and find out :^) ^^aww oath2order please
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Dec 16, 2016 17:38
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Kinzo did it then climbed into the furnace. 
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Dec 16, 2016 17:43
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The only good thing about Kinzo is that you can accuse him of basically anything and it'd fit his character. ...As long as it doesn't involve being nice to people, anyway. And even then.
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Dec 16, 2016 17:53
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All you silly witches... So I can probably expect no new information about the order of the deaths than what we have been given, yes? Which may not be complete, since the way it happened that the game provides us with (Kinzo, Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Gohda, and Kuwabara) renders any earthly set up of the rooms impossible, as the only ones left who could have done it are demon butlers and silly stake schoolgirls. Which is STUPID. As for whether the doors can be locked from the inside... that's trickier. I've re-read the old updates, but the ability of the doors to be locked from the inside doesn't seem to have been brought up by anyone. The closest it has been has been this: ... which if we take to refer to inside the door as well as outside, means that the only way to lock a door at all is if one has a key. OK, but- Genji did have a key, a master one, and thus could have locked the door himself. (I am tempted to add that he has a knife too, but the only time his proficiency with knives has come up is when the story goes into Magical-Bullshit Land, and ninjas are just as silly as wizards and demons, so that may or may not be true as well.) So in short: my theory does not directly contradict any Red that I can see, but is not without holes (how did Genji kill himself, etc).
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Dec 16, 2016 20:49
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Rune Full Moon posted:The only good thing about Kinzo is that you can accuse him of basically anything and it'd fit his character. Well, I mean, he couldn't've locked his own door, he was the only one in that chain of closed rooms without a Master Key. Unless he did it with magic.
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Dec 16, 2016 20:59
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oath2order posted:Can you explain how genji could shoot or stab himself without leaving any obvious weapons around? An icicle. One solid enough to stab himself with. It would not only provide a disappearing murder weapon, but also fulfill the requirements of the ritual. It's even possible that the dampness would be overlooked by all the blood. Of course, this is assuming he was killed by stabbing. We don't actually know what killed him this time.
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Dec 16, 2016 21:26
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Would the culprit be able to create an icicle of that size and sturdiness on the island, though? It is summer on Rokkenjima, right? So a natural one is out of the question. And I don't know if they could make an artificial one... Not that could kill a human.
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Dec 16, 2016 22:00
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It's October, actually, so it's not Summer. However, it's clearly not freezing, so the technical details of the season outside are irrelevant to an icicle theory.
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Dec 16, 2016 22:05
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resurgam40 posted:As for whether the doors can be locked from the inside... that's trickier. I've re-read the old updates, but the ability of the doors to be locked from the inside doesn't seem to have been brought up by anyone. The closest it has been has been this: I'm glad you found that bit, but it has indeed been brought up. The thread even argued about it.
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Dec 16, 2016 22:07
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oath2order posted:Can you explain how genji could shoot or stab himself without leaving any obvious weapons around? Yes. Genji has really sharp fingers.
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Dec 16, 2016 22:24
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I think the idea that one of them killed the rest and then committed suicide has a lot of merit. For the cause of death if Nanjo can't tell the difference between a bullet wound and a stake wound then frankly I don't trust him knowing cause of death at all, so it could have been a non lethal stab and then poison for the suicide. Also, it doesn't seem like they said that the chapel or the furnace fit Beatrice's closed room conditions. They said it explicitly for the other 4 rooms. Though they haven't said any of that in red anyway. Oh, and idonotlikepeas has a really good post about iteration 2. Rosa as murderer with servant accomplice does resolve things pretty well.
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Dec 16, 2016 22:35
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resurgam40 posted:Of course, that all depends on if they were actually killed in that order, and the rooms can be locked from the inside without keys. I assume they would, but this is a weird house operating under weird rules, so repitiotion requested: did these people die in the order they were found, and can the doors be locked from inside? I'm no witch, because no such thing exists, but I can answer half of that for you: ProfessorProf posted:
The rooms (at least some of the rooms) can be locked from the inside. That being the case, your murder/suicide theory has some legs, especially if you finger Crazy Grandpa as the primary instigator, possibly with Genji as backup.
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Dec 16, 2016 22:42
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"I don't know the practical details of the trick, but I have a general idea. My apologies, but if we supposed that Kanon-kun was the culprit, it can be explained extremely easily. Even as to why there was no corpse."
"Huh... But Kanon-kun wasn't holding a master key, right?! Putting aside the other servants, at least Kanon-kun shouldn't have been able to lock the door!"
"The brain speed of a little sister is always the big sister's minus 1. Right now there is no one I need to worry about, so I feel relieved."
"...I, I'm sorry. Could you explain it so that even I can understand? Kanon-kun's master key was in Jessica-chan's pocket, closed up inside a closed room. After the door was locked, it should have been impossible to put it in her pocket from outside the room no matter what trick he used...!"
"It's simple. George-kun, when you return home, you lock the door, right? You twist the knob, *click*, right?"
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idonotlikepeas posted:The rooms (at least some of the rooms) can be locked from the inside. That being the case, your murder/suicide theory has some legs, especially if you finger Crazy Grandpa as the primary instigator, possibly with Genji as backup. These particular rooms can't be locked from the inside, because this time we've got the red statement, No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock. Since the auto-lock is given as an example, I'm pretty sure privacy locks would count as a "device".
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Dec 16, 2016 23:14
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whitehelm posted:These particular rooms can't be locked from the inside, because this time we've got the red statement, No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock. Since the auto-lock is given as an example, I'm pretty sure privacy locks would count as a "device". But Genji, for example, could have used his master key to lock it from the inside. That just prevents Kinzo from being the suicider, it doesn't otherwise damage the theory. Of course Battler will never guess this because it must have been a 19th person or something. He's really constraining himself quite badly.
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Dec 16, 2016 23:21
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whitehelm posted:These particular rooms can't be locked from the inside, because this time we've got the red statement, No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock. Since the auto-lock is given as an example, I'm pretty sure privacy locks would count as a "device". On the other hand, Beatrice said the doors in question here are normal, meaning we can consider that most if not all of the doors on Rokkenjima work basically the same, excluding special cases like Kinzo's auto-lock door, the shed door etc. Rosa wouldn't be saying you can just twist the knob to lock the door if you couldn't - after all, she has lived several years of her life in this mansion, so presumably she knows how the doors there work. Even Battler came to the same conclusion. Of course none of this is in red so obviously you can't trust it.
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Dec 16, 2016 23:34
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The profile page has been updated. Also, since you're having so much fun with this one, here's a tidbit to tide you over until I finish preparing more updates: None of the six victims of the first twilight committed suicide.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:14
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Qrr posted:I think the idea that one of them killed the rest and then committed suicide has a lot of merit. For the cause of death if Nanjo can't tell the difference between a bullet wound and a stake wound then frankly I don't trust him knowing cause of death at all, so it could have been a non lethal stab and then poison for the suicide. There is the possibility Nanjo is an accomplice. Which makes a lot of stuff easier. But honestly this mystery is a bit beyond me. ProfessorProf posted:The profile page has been updated. Also, since you're having so much fun with this one, here's a tidbit to tide you over until I finish preparing more updates: Oh so is this a Red truth form a upcoming update? This shuts down many theories.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:26
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Generally speaking, if I use the red outside of updates, you can assume I'm just presenting one of Beatrice's moves ahead of schedule.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:28
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ProfessorProf posted:The profile page has been updated. Also, since you're having so much fun with this one, here's a tidbit to tide you over until I finish preparing more updates: Oh poo poo, pulling out that dagger a day early, huh?
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Dec 17, 2016 00:39
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Oh I must laugh. But that's about all I can do, after all, I know the truth and thus must remain silent. Its against the rules for spoilers.
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Dec 17, 2016 01:02
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I suspected that move might come next. If they killed themselves, we'd be at a loss for suspects in the next murder. Well, it doesn't matter too much. The key has to be Kinzo. His body is the one that's different. He's the one that's burned and he's the one that's only got one key. Why burn only him when the others are shot or stabbed? One possible motivation would be to conceal his identity; even with the extra toes, that isn't impossible, but let's assume for the moment that it's really him. I can see two ways this might have happened so far, although I might mull it over some to see if there are more. One is the boiler itself: the boiler room hasn't been identified as a closed room as explicitly as the others, so what if there is an air vent that leads to the boiler? If he is the last to be killed, everyone else having already been murdered and locked in, you kill Kinzo, dump the key to the previous murder site into his pocket, and shove him down the vent to the boiler. Second way depends on you being able to lock the doors from the inside without a key, which might still be a possibility depending on how you interpret the red text. In that case, you grab him, shove the other key in his pocket, tie an incendiary device on him with a fuse, and shove him into the room. Then you point a gun at him and tell him to lock the door. He'll probably do it to maximize his chances of survival, then spend his last few minutes trying to remove or disable the device. He burns to death on his own and there you are. Edit: doesn't explain how he literally might end up in the boiler. We, maybe you leave the door open and he fortuitously stumbles in there while flailing around the room. Edit 2: that second method actually works better with someone that isn't Kinzo, since it's easier just to stab someone fatally than build a timed incendiary and the others have master keys. Tell them you'll consider calling for medical help if they lock themselves in or shoot them right away if they don't. idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 01:04
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ProfessorProf posted:The profile page has been updated. Also, since you're having so much fun with this one, here's a tidbit to tide you over until I finish preparing more updates: That's inconvenient, but doesn't make things impossible. It does make it require someone else. If there were an additional party, they could have stabbed (nonlerhally) and poisoned a servant, then chased them in such a way that the servant locked themselves in a room then died of poison. Or skip the poison and just have a wound that's lethal eventually but not instantly. It's suddenly way more complicated and prone to failure, but oh well. Since it does require an outside person... Nanjos alibi wasn't great, was it?
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Dec 17, 2016 01:28
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Qrr posted:Since it does require an outside person... Nanjos alibi wasn't great, was it? He's the only one, as far as I can recall, who didn't have other people around to testify for said alibi. The adults were all fighting about inheritance, the kids were all shored up in the guest house
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Dec 17, 2016 02:41
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