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MikeJF posted:I wonder if they might've gotten a better effect with an actor with a very similar face who was then modified into Tarkin. So the eyes, skin, etc could be real. They sort of tried that and this was the result. 
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Dec 17, 2016 18:16
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Honestly I would have been fine with them recasting the character with a different actor and not making a big deal out of it. CGI Leia didn't bother me because it was only for a second, the lighting was super bright, and there weren't any people with her in the shot.
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Dec 17, 2016 18:25
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Filthy Casual posted:So you admit to forming a connection with a character. Maybe I just feel bad about droid abuse and it triggered me that way. Filthy Casual posted:The movie was pretty clear about what they go through to get them, they murder and terrorize, due to the Empire pushing them to such desperate extremes. If you don't want to like the characters that's okay, but there's plenty of reasons to get behind them or be horrified by them. I don't dislike the characters, I just think they're left underdeveloped. The movie hints at greater depth but just doesn't go there, too bad.
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Dec 17, 2016 18:28
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Nielsen posted:Maybe I just feel bad about droid abuse and it triggered me that way. He took agency and made a sacrifice.
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Dec 17, 2016 18:31
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Magnitogorsk. posted:This is not a genre where you spend half the movie laboring over a character's life story Yes it is. That is pretty much what all Sci-Fi is and especially Star Wars. The original trilogy is defined by its characters as much as its lightsabers and we literally got a prequel trilogy which amounted to 'here is the history of almost every character."
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Dec 17, 2016 18:36
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The most laughable thing in this movie is that they try to desperately inject it with some unneeded action and drama by having Jyn fall and hang off a really high platform no less than three times only to have her immediately pull herself back up again. The laziest, most amateur action movie trope imaginable.
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Dec 17, 2016 18:45
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Maybe the reshoots hosed it up, too, because whatever arcs the characters had seemed choppy and kind of arbitrary.
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Dec 17, 2016 18:45
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Nielsen posted:I don't dislike the characters, I just think they're left underdeveloped. The movie hints at greater depth but just doesn't go there, too bad. I can dig wanting to see more of them. What, in particular, could have been done to alleviate this? ImpAtom posted:Yes it is. That is pretty much what all Sci-Fi is and especially Star Wars. The original trilogy is defined by its characters as much as its lightsabers and we literally got a prequel trilogy which amounted to 'here is the history of almost every character." Indeed, that is a focus of the numbered Star Wars movies. Rogue One is pointedly not about those people, but I appreciate that it showed the visceral cost of what it took to put the numbered series characters in a position to succeed.
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Dec 17, 2016 18:45
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Filthy Casual posted:Indeed, that is a focus of the numbered Star Wars movies. Rogue One is pointedly not about those people, but I appreciate that it showed the visceral cost of what it took to put the numbered series characters in a position to succeed. It is a focus of every sci-fi movie I can think of, and the "visceral cost" would be higher if we knew the characters better. "TFA was lacking some creativity, but that's because certain things had to be in there for episode reasons" "Rogue One was lacking some character development, but that's because it's not one of the episode movies, where that matters" Like, you do realize that a movie can have the creativity and character development and great action scenes you want at the same time, right? Especially with the amount of money behind these films?
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Dec 17, 2016 18:52
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We knew the characters enough and understood the stakes enough. Any more time dedicated to them would have pulled the movie too far away from the urgency to find the drat plans and get them into Rebel hands.
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Dec 17, 2016 18:56
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Filthy Casual posted:Indeed, that is a focus of the numbered Star Wars movies. Rogue One is pointedly not about those people, but I appreciate that it showed the visceral cost of what it took to put the numbered series characters in a position to succeed. Rogue One not being about those people doesn't matter though? It should be about its own characters, AndyElusive posted:We knew the characters enough and understood the stakes enough. Any more time dedicated to them would have pulled the movie too far away from the urgency to find the drat plans and get them into Rebel hands. Okay, except the plans getting into rebel hands is the least interesting part of the film because we know unambiguously that they succeed. There is no tension in if their plan will succeed. If anything Rogue One should be MORE about the characters because their journey is more relevant than the outcome.
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Dec 17, 2016 18:56
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homullus posted:Like, you do realize that a movie can have the creativity and character development and great action scenes you want at the same time, right? Especially with the amount of money behind these films? I'll bite. What, specifically, needed to happen to be worthy of your investment? I'm not demanding a screenplay or anything, just stuff like "instead of the Rathar sequence in TFA, Han spends more time talking with Finn and Rey about his experiences with Luke, The Force, etc." or "instead of Starkiller base, the TFA crew goes on a heist for the second part of the map and we get some ambient updates of the state of galactic politics and more meaningful involvement with R2 and 3PO, but the location still has set pieces for Ren's murder of Han and the battle between Finn/Rey and Ren afterward." quote:Rogue One not being about those people doesn't matter though? It should be about its own characters -Jyn is able to resolve some feelings about her father, stop drifting through life and contribute to a meaningful cause. -Cassian learns to question where the line is drawn regarding his missions. -Chirrut fulfills the will of the Force. -Baze, while often mocking Chirrut's devotion, finds strength in the mantra in his darkest hour. -K2 finds cause to set aside his cynicism. Filthy Casual fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 18:57
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Listening to the soundtrack now, which everyone has pointed out as being sorta blah. And as we know the dude had to slap it together in a month, which is nuts. I'm surprised at how much I remember of it from the film, considering I really couldn't quote anything from it from memory. The ROGUE ONE title sting is weird to me because after decades of soundalikes of the Star Wars Theme in parodies, homages, late night talk show bits, etc. it just sounds exactly like all of those. I understand wanting a different vibe but either go mad different or go with a remix (a la Clone Wars theme, which I think is an underdiscussed bit of cleverness). The soundtrack isn't bad, it's just even more apparent to me how important John Williams is to the saga films. The dude is practically at death's door and while some feel like he was running on empty for TFA, I think it's just...parsecs beyond :v
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Dec 17, 2016 19:00
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I cannot fathom why they did the CGI for Tarkin. Aren't there at least 20 look alikes for every Star Wars Character? I think Charles Dance could have played Tarkin and nobody would have minded.
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Dec 17, 2016 19:00
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Filthy Casual posted:I'll bite. What, specifically, needed to happen to be worthy of your investment? I would need for the characters to interact with each other. Donnie Yen was cool but only talks about the force. His partner was cool but only interacted with Donnie Yen. The pilot makes a huge sacrifice to save people, but no one acknowledges it. The robot was cool, but only talks to Jyn and Cassian. The movie had moments suggesting interesting relationships. The villain and Mads seem to have an interesting history, a strong friendship at one point, but Mads isn't in it enough to have a payoff.
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Dec 17, 2016 19:05
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ImpAtom posted:Yes it is. That is pretty much what all Sci-Fi is and especially Star Wars. The original trilogy is defined by its characters as much as its lightsabers and we literally got a prequel trilogy which amounted to 'here is the history of almost every character." And those movies sucked. Bad example.
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Dec 17, 2016 19:06
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Filthy Casual posted:I can dig wanting to see more of them. What, in particular, could have been done to alleviate this? A cohesive script with more moments that illuminated the characters and gave them textured personality, either by "down-time" scenes (think of the bar scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark) or situations where the characters do things that show us their qualities to control (or lose control of) the situation. There's so little ingenuity on display, and we don't find anything out about the characters by how they do things because they do things in the dullest, most straightforward way possible. Jyn gets to the top of the tower and tries to upload the data, but the dish is misaligned. A better movie would have this be something she has to solve using talents she's learned and developed, but instead she just goes over to a platform and pushes a button so that a ship can shoot it and Krennic can gloat at her. And again, a better movie would have her use her talents to get out of the situation, but instead he just gets lamely shot in the back by Andor. And again, a better movie would do this a different way, probably by spending more energy illustrating the balance of trust between Jyn and Andor, and Andor's relation to the resistance. Instead, the movie gives us the most basic, limp version and expects that to be enough. Force Awakens has its own creativity issues but it does a great job of illustrating its characters by their choices, dialogue, and interactions. Rey shows us more about who she is by eating lunch than Jyn does through the entire film.
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Dec 17, 2016 19:09
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ghostwritingduck posted:I would need for the characters to interact with each other. Donnie Yen was cool but only talks about the force. His partner was cool but only interacted with Donnie Yen. The pilot makes a huge sacrifice to save people, but no one acknowledges it. The robot was cool, but only talks to Jyn and Cassian. There's a notable point of conflict between Jyn and Cassian triggered by Chirrut's observations, not to mention the circumstances surrounding those five meeting initially. quote:The movie had moments suggesting interesting relationships. The villain and Mads seem to have an interesting history, a strong friendship at one point, but Mads isn't in it enough to have a payoff. Yeah, that would have been cool, I could have definitely appreciated a bit more insight into Krennic and Galen's relationship.
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Dec 17, 2016 19:11
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AwwJeah posted:The most laughable thing in this movie is that they try to desperately inject it with some unneeded action and drama by having Jyn fall and hang off a really high platform no less than three times only to have her immediately pull herself back up again. Yeah, I'm not sure what they were going for with this. I actually chuckled to myself in the theater by the time it happened on Scarif. They certainly didn't need to include it on Edo, where the tension was already high enough. Magic Hate Ball posted:Force Awakens has its own creativity issues but it does a great job of illustrating its characters by their choices, dialogue, and interactions. Rey shows us more about who she is by eating lunch than Jyn does through the entire film. I actually felt the opposite. R1 is the first Star Wars movie where I felt that the characters had agency and were making choices based on consequences and calculations (mostly). TFA, while fun, had the same sense of people on a track just running through the motions that the OT and prequels have. YMMV.
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Dec 17, 2016 19:18
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Lol this thread. I don't know what it looked like all year but Jesus it's always about how lovely star wars is. You guys are funny. See you next year for episode 8!
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Dec 17, 2016 19:21
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Magic Hate Ball posted:He took agency and made a sacrifice. This is important to note: just as the droids in FA taking up equal roles, K2 is treated more as Diego's Chewie than a servant. He probably could have been turned into a basic pilot, but they gave him free will and the ability to express it at his leisure, and the daughter (I keep calling people stuff like this because im bad with fantasy names)'s arc of slowly warming to the rebels happens alongside her arc of warming up to K2. It helps show that the Rebels (and to a future extent the Resistance) are different from the empire not just in their tolerance of aliens, but in their grey position on droid treatment.
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Dec 17, 2016 19:32
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I liked all the characters, and they did a good job of making them do questionable things while still being sympathetic. IMO
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Dec 17, 2016 19:33
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Neurolimal posted:This is important to note: just as the droids in FA taking up equal roles, K2 is treated more as Diego's Chewie than a servant. He probably could have been turned into a basic pilot, but they gave him free will and the ability to express it at his leisure, and the daughter (I keep calling people stuff like this because im bad with fantasy names)'s arc of slowly warming to the rebels happens alongside her arc of warming up to K2. It helps show that the Rebels (and to a future extent the Resistance) are different from the empire not just in their tolerance of aliens, but in their grey position on droid treatment. They didn't give him free will. They reprogrammed him and part of the reprogramming glitched him so he was unable to not speak his mind even if he wanted to. Cassian also doesn't remotely treat him like a friend and instead refuses to arm him ("You never let me have a Blaster!") and constantly belittles him and tells him to stay on the ship. Chewbacca carries around a big-rear end laser gun and Han is happy he is armed. K2 is forced to go unarmed into dangerous situations because Cassian refuses to arm him for no reason whatsoever.
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Dec 17, 2016 19:39
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Magic Hate Ball posted:I don't care about stolen Death Star plans, I care about the people who want to steal those plans. At least, I wanted to care. Instead it was just "here's the sequence of events as spurred on by flimsy emotional pretext".
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Dec 17, 2016 19:43
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I thought the characters were pretty good for what they were, and established pretty well for the size of the cast. It was more of a Seven Samurai than a Hidden Fortress, which gives you less time to dwell on interactions as the shared goals are more of a focus. I also liked portraying the Rebellion as an actual Rebellion with various factions and terrorism and collateral damage. As someone who thought TFA was completely bland and boring due to rehash, I quite enjoyed this.
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Dec 17, 2016 19:52
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ImpAtom posted:They didn't give him free will. They reprogrammed him and part of the reprogramming glitched him so he was unable to not speak his mind even if he wanted to. Cassian also doesn't remotely treat him like a friend and instead refuses to arm him ("You never let me have a Blaster!") and constantly belittles him and tells him to stay on the ship. This is a lot of reaching; none of the imperial droids speak. At all. They are either mute or without higher function beyond tactical analysis. Are you going to suggest that reprogramming them away from this state is akin to brainwashing or anything harmful of the sort? It seems more obvious that K2 is born from the rebel's reprogramming, rather than a poor defenseless charismatic imperial drone being kidnapped and mutated. quote:Chewbacca carries around a big-rear end laser gun and Han is happy he is armed. K2 is forced to go unarmed into dangerous situations because Cassian refuses to arm him for no reason whatsoever. Cassian treats him as an antagonistic friend, he doesn't give him a blaster because he doesn't trust anyone, to such an extent that he won't even give a droid ally one. Han doesn't exactly talk for scenes about how much he loves chewie.
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Dec 17, 2016 19:56
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Neurolimal posted:This is a lot of reaching; none of the imperial droids speak. At all. They are either mute or without higher function beyond tactical analysis. Are you going to suggest that reprogramming them away from this state is akin to brainwashing or anything harmful of the sort? Yes, that is exactly what it is? K2 is *explicitly* ordered to do things in the film even when he doesn't want to. ("I have your back, Jyn ... because Captain Cassian ordered me to!") Neurolimal posted:Cassian treats him as an antagonistic friend, he doesn't give him a blaster because he doesn't trust anyone, to such an extent that he won't even give a droid ally one. Han doesn't exactly talk for scenes about how much he loves chewie. Cassian is willing to let Jyn carry a blaster after five seconds struggle. He apparently isn't THAT antagonistic. Han absolutely shows lots of care and affection for Chewie. They banter but also show a lot of affection for one another and Chewie is able to call Han out when he does poo poo. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 20:00
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, that is exactly what it is? K2 is *explicitly* ordered to do things in the film even when he doesn't want to. ("I have your back, Jyn ... because Captain Cassian ordered me to!") He's a member of an army. That's how an army works. He even calls him by Captain. K2 is even shown to be capable of ignoring orders, when he decides staying on the ship is boring. quote:Cassian is willing to let Jyn carry a blaster after five seconds struggle. He apparently isn't THAT antagonistic. He's on a mission to kill her father. He doesn't really need more reasons for her not to trust him. quote:Han absolutely shows lots of care and affection for Chewie. They banter but also show a lot of affection for one another and Chewie is able to call Han out when he does poo poo. ....except K2 does, in fact, call Cass out on stuff a lot?
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Dec 17, 2016 20:07
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Darko posted:I thought the characters were pretty good for what they were, and established pretty well for the size of the cast. It was more of a Seven Samurai than a Hidden Fortress, which gives you less time to dwell on interactions as the shared goals are more of a focus. Yah, I thought it worked pretty well as a big picture war film piece. It definitely would have been nice if Jyn (or Jen or whatever) had more of a clearly defined origin, to define her initial apathy against her eventual decision to run a suicide mission off her own back but I don't think we needed to have rich, deep backstories for every one of the seven or so main cast for their roles to work. If anything, I thought it worked well to see them fight together out of an implicit sense of solidarity and to oppose fascism rather than having everything play out because of interpersonal relationships.
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Dec 17, 2016 20:08
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Neurolimal posted:He's a member of an army. That's how an army works. He even calls him by Captain. K2 is even shown to be capable of ignoring orders, when he decides staying on the ship is boring. Except, again, we're told specifically he was reprogrammed. Not 'freed' but reprogrammed. (and they screwed it up!) Neurolimal posted:He's on a mission to kill her father. He doesn't really need more reasons for her not to trust him. Oh, so he's so untrusting that he won't give his closest companion a weapon even in dangerous situations but will trust someone he is explicitly intending to betray with one. That certainly makes sense. Neurolimal posted:....except K2 does, in fact, call Cass out on stuff a lot? K2 calls Cassian out and Cassian tells him to shut up and leave him alone.It is not remotely the same dynamic.
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Dec 17, 2016 20:13
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Filthy Casual posted:I'll bite. What, specifically, needed to happen to be worthy of your investment? I'm not demanding a screenplay or anything, just stuff like "instead of the Rathar sequence in TFA, Han spends more time talking with Finn and Rey about his experiences with Luke, The Force, etc." or "instead of Starkiller base, the TFA crew goes on a heist for the second part of the map and we get some ambient updates of the state of galactic politics and more meaningful involvement with R2 and 3PO, but the location still has set pieces for Ren's murder of Han and the battle between Finn/Rey and Ren afterward." I would have liked it to NOT do specific things. No Empire clone with a Death Star clone done in by a trench run clone from a Rebellion clone, no infodump to explain why Han and Leia aren't together, no R2D2 is a sleepy rear end in a top hat. But sure, here is a plot I spent a couple minutes on: The galaxy has an uneasy peace. Some worlds remain in the Empire, some are back in the Republic, some are independent. Rey is a scavenger and bounty hunter hired by Han & Leia to find their son, who is under the sway of a Vader cult. Vader cult coup causes Finn to desert much as he did in TFA. Finn is arrested by the Republic but is useful for his knowledge of the cult, and so they put him with Rey. Tracking the cult they find A Thing, take it to Luke, Luke has a vision that prompts Han to go with Rey and Finn. They track the cult more and pewpew stuff happens in the DMZ between Empire and Republic. They foil a cult plot to start a real war but Han & Leia's son kills Han and becomes Kylo Ren, who escapes. Rey, who bonded with Han and also has a new Force vision about her missing family decides to stay and train with Luke. We see Kylo Ren ignite a not-janky lightsaber and a bunch of dudes do the same. The end. Instead we got A New Hope 2: Hope Harder.
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Dec 17, 2016 20:15
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Anyone know what the original plot was? Jyn's father is kidnapped -> she joins the terrorist group -> Rebels attack Jehda and capture Jyn in the resulting commotion (this explains the capture Rebel pilots from the trailer and the crashed X-wing that remains front and center during the fight on Jehda) And contrary to what some think, the original cut seems to have more Vader. See the trailer shots that seem to show him on the Death Star or some other ship along with Krennec. Was Tarkin a replacement for Vader in these shots?
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Dec 17, 2016 20:16
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homullus posted:I would have liked it to NOT do specific things. No Empire clone with a Death Star clone done in by a trench run clone from a Rebellion clone, no infodump to explain why Han and Leia aren't together, no R2D2 is a sleepy rear end in a top hat. So you want a film that is almost identical except with more force visions. Gotcha.
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Dec 17, 2016 20:18
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ImpAtom posted:So you want a film that is almost identical except with more force visions. Gotcha. Nah. I wanted something much more different and interesting. I was trying to show how they could have used nearly identical characters without TFA's slavish OT worship.
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Dec 17, 2016 20:24
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homullus posted:Nah. I wanted something much more different and interesting. I was trying to show how they could have used nearly identical characters without TFA's slavish OT worship. What you stated is not actually meaningfully more different except it has more Luke Skywalker in it, and you conveniently glossed over any sort of details and just went "but it'd be DIFFERENT!!!"
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Dec 17, 2016 20:25
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Magnitogorsk. posted:I couldn't possibly disagree more. I wanted to watch a cool rear end Star Wars space adventure and see a major event in Star Wars history get fleshed out more. The whole point of the movie is to tell a Star Wars story, not create new characters for you to get ~emotionally invested~ in. This is not a genre where you spend half the movie laboring over a character's life story Rogue One is a very good movie for you. You wanted to see Star Wars, and the one thing I'm not seeing people deny is that this movie was a two hour celebration of the Star Wars IP. However, if Rogue One had the Star Wars IP filed off of it, it does not resemble what is traditionally considered to be a good movie. Star Wars isn't a genre of movie, it is IP. Hence people more or less saying: I don't know what the gently caress I just watched, other than it was a whole lot of Star Wars IP in it. I would hazard to say that most people expect a traditionally good movie that then makes use of interesting IP to supplement the experience when they sit in a theater for something like Rogue One.
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Dec 17, 2016 20:30
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The Darth Vader slaughter scene is already up on Youtube.
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Dec 17, 2016 20:30
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Will the young Han Solo movie will be about him and Chewie trying to pull off the Kessel Run? Like I'm trying to think of things that it could actually add to their characters for the next Star War Story and that's been something they've mentioned twice now in the saga.
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Dec 17, 2016 20:31
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It was a bad film but an OK Star Wars movie. Magic Hate Ball posted:I don't care about stolen Death Star plans, I care about the people who want to steal those plans. At least, I wanted to care. Instead it was just "here's the sequence of events as spurred on by flimsy emotional pretext". I'm curious to know what the reshoots actually ended up becoming because the first third, or even first half of the movie is jumbled mess.
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Dec 17, 2016 20:31
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ImpAtom posted:What you stated is not actually meaningfully more different except it has more Luke Skywalker in it, and you conveniently glossed over any sort of details and just went "but it'd be DIFFERENT!!!" It was definitely convenient to not write an entire screenplay! But the differences are 1) no Death Star or trench run, 2) no faux Vader or faux Emperor, 3) no "undoing" the results of the OT by just making a new Empire vs. a new Rebellion.
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Dec 17, 2016 20:31
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