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Well to be fair, if Bethesda would actually fix their drat games instead of pushing out buggy messes there wouldn't be a need for Unofficial Patches.
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Dec 18, 2016 16:37
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GunnerJ posted:The Unofficial Patch is a worrying thing in a way because it's become so essential yet I don't think anyone has a clear idea what's in it. The changelog by my last reckoning does tell what was changed and why in fairly reasonable words, it's just that it's the size of an average constitution
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Dec 18, 2016 16:55
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GunnerJ posted:The Unofficial Patch is a worrying thing in a way because it's become so essential yet I don't think anyone has a clear idea what's in it. Magmarashi posted:I'm p sure he did this once already with an up and coming open city mod, just got them straight up run off Nexus. There was someone who posted an "Unofficial Fallout 4 Patch" on the nexus while Arthmoor and rest of the UP team waited the CK to be released. I can't find it anymore, so I guess that was either removed or he was forced to rename it. Though that was just someone who wanted to become an Internet-superstar with a lovely mod made in xSnip (which means it could gently caress up your game), so screw that guy.
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Dec 18, 2016 17:19
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scamtank posted:The changelog by my last reckoning does tell what was changed and why in fairly reasonable words, it's just that it's the size of an average constitution Well, that's the problem. In order to know what's in it, you have to be willing to delve into this huge loving thing.
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Dec 18, 2016 17:21
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Raygereio posted:Nah, it's pretty clear what's in it. You can open the thing with the CK or xEdit yourself and see and they supply the source along side the scripts. "You can find out if you take time out of your day to make this technical investigation" is not really "it's clear to most people using it what it does."
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Dec 18, 2016 17:22
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Like, I'm not bashing the idea of the Unofficial Patch or the good work its done. That's not the point. It's that where "fixing issues" begins and "making subjective calls about what should be in the game" ends isn't clear to the majority of users (who don't have the time or inclination, quite reasonably, to check it out in xEdit or to study its gargantuan change log), yet the majority of users know they need it.
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Dec 18, 2016 17:24
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GunnerJ posted:"You can find out if you take time out of your day to make this technical investigation" is not really "it's clear to most people using it what it does." I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say here.
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Dec 18, 2016 17:27
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Raygereio posted:How is that any different from any other mod in existence though? The only way you know exactly what for example EnaiSiaion's Thunderchild does is if you read it's readme and check what its files contains. edit: also I'd bet it's got a way shorter readme
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Dec 18, 2016 17:31
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GunnerJ posted:Like, I'm not bashing the idea of the Unofficial Patch or the good work its done. That's not the point. It's that where "fixing issues" begins and "making subjective calls about what should be in the game" ends isn't clear to the majority of users (who don't have the time or inclination, quite reasonably, to check it out in xEdit or to study its gargantuan change log), yet the majority of users know they need it. If the user is feeling like a lazy git and doesn't want to spend some time checking things and they end up being surprised by something that the USKP changes that they don't like, then how that not that user's - and only that user's - problem? The information is there, what else should the USKP do? I'm feeling like you're going for some "Users shouldn't have to read things or do any thinking."-sort of nonsense. If you don't I apologize, but you know modding doesn't work like that. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Dec 18, 2016 |
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Dec 18, 2016 17:40
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Raygereio posted:How is that any different from any other mod in existence though? The only way you know exactly what for example EnaiSiaion's Thunderchild does is if you read it's readme and check what its files contains. Raygereio posted:The USKP team supplies a complete changelog. It's there, it describes in detail what's in it. There's a matter of degree, man. Thunderchild doesn't do anything on the scale of the Unofficial Patches and it's not something that most of Skyrim modding relies on. There's a reasonable degree of work users should have to do in order to figure things out, but the sheer size of the list of things the Patch does is way beyond that. And even if a user does take the time to go through it all, if they don't like something, what are they going to do? Opt out of anything that requires it? "What should the Unofficial Patch team do?" isn't a question I'm proposing to answer and I don't think it's critical to answer. Maybe there isn't anything they can do. But after things like the hilarious dragon voice acting fiasco we all know and love, it's just a thing that bugs me. eta: If "What is to be done?" really is a burning question, then I'd have to say that since it bugs me, taking the time to look into it and report on it is the answer. I don't have that time right now, though, so I'm not suggesting anyone do anything. It's just a concern I have. GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Dec 18, 2016 |
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Dec 18, 2016 17:45
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Warmonger's Armory is now in my Converted for Personal Use folder. I include no readme or changlog because gently caress you GunnerJ. Lie awake. Lie awake at night and twist in the wind about unreported changes.
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Dec 18, 2016 17:49
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GunnerJ posted:And even if a user does take the time to go through it all, if they don't like something, what are they going to do? Opt out of anything that requires it? The exact same thing you do with any other mod where you like 99% of it, but don't like that one little thing: Grab the modding tools and change it.
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Dec 18, 2016 17:49
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Agents are GO! posted:Warmonger's Armory is now in my Converted for Personal Use folder. I include no readme or changlog because gently caress you GunnerJ. Lie awake. Lie awake at night and twist in the wind about unreported changes. 
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Dec 18, 2016 17:54
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GunnerJ posted:But after things like the hilarious dragon voice acting fiasco we all know and love, it's just a thing that bugs me. What was the dragon voice acting fiasco?
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Dec 18, 2016 17:54
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Danger Will Robinson.
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Dec 18, 2016 17:56
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Raygereio posted:The exact same thing you do with any other mod where you like 99% of it, but don't like that one little thing: Grab the modding tools and change it. I think that's a step beyond what I'd say is reasonable for most people, but at that point, you're basically saying that the patch may be so big and wide-ranging in scope and do so many unexpected and undesirable things that users need to patch it. That's pretty much the possibility I'm pointing to. That's it, it's not the end of the world, and I'm still going to use it and recommend using it. If there's a point to this maybe in the back of my mind I wondered if there's enough curiosity for someone (like a hypothetical Future Me with free time) to actually investigate it.
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Dec 18, 2016 17:56
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Dr Cheeto posted:What was the dragon voice acting fiasco? Not quoting the OP for snark, just for convenience: GunnerJ posted:The Unofficial Legendary Edition Patch (USLEEP): This fixes all those annoying bugs that Bethesda leaves in because they're sloppy. If you're using the free High Resolution DLC, be sure to grab the Unofficial High-Resolution Patch too. There's rumblings that many of the "bug fixes" being made verge on subjective judgment calls about "how the game should be." To which, I think the developers would say, "Noooo!" (To resolve this strange bug in the patch which has not been fixed, consider Shut Up, Mirmulnir.)
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Dec 18, 2016 17:57
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So are there actually any bad changes (dumb voice acting aside) that USLEEP makes? If not, who even cares? It's not like Arthmoor's coming 'round my house and putting up Oblivion Gates in my kitchen or anything.
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Dec 18, 2016 18:01
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docbeard posted:So are there actually any bad changes (dumb voice acting aside) that USLEEP makes? If not, who even cares? It's not like Arthmoor's coming 'round my house and putting up Oblivion Gates in my kitchen or anything. GunnerJ posted:That's pretty much the possibility I'm pointing to. That's it, it's not the end of the world, and I'm still going to use it and recommend using it. If there's a point to this maybe in the back of my mind I wondered if there's enough curiosity for someone (like a hypothetical Future Me with free time) to actually investigate it. Gonna take that as at least one "no" to the interest check, then. 
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Dec 18, 2016 18:02
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Arthmoor has, for the most part, done an excellent job keeping USLEEP on track. Anything untoward would be ridiculed pretty quickly (bad voice acting for instance).
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Dec 18, 2016 18:16
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GunnerJ posted:I think that's a step beyond what I'd say is reasonable for most people, but at that point, you're basically saying that the patch may be so big and wide-ranging in scope and do so many unexpected and undesirable things that users need to patch it. If I understand you right you want the USKP to please everyone. Which is a noble goal, but impossible to do. Because of its size it (like any other big mod) can contain several things one or more of the gazillion users may not like. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Dec 18, 2016 |
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Dec 18, 2016 18:29
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Raygereio posted:If I understand you right you want the USKP to please everyone. Which is a noble goal, but impossible to do. Because of its size it (like any other big mod) can contain several things one or more of the gazillion users may not like. I think his point is less "Please everyone" and more a concern about if there are subjective changes that in the end aren't really what most people would want, like the dragon voice acting. It's a lot like how the fan translation for Final Fantasy 4 just stuck a bunch of pop culture references in where there weren't any in the original text, then the developers just shrugged and said "Can't please everyone" when called out on it. Not to say there ARE these subjective changes, because who is going to bother reading that huge changelog. 
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Dec 18, 2016 18:42
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Honestly, Arth just puts the subjective stuff into his "Cutting Room Floor" mod, which is a decent compromise. I read through the changelogs because it's interesting to me, and there's plenty of "reverted change X from before, too subjective." Edit: And go to hell, GunnerJ, you just made me defend Arthmoor. 
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Dec 18, 2016 18:46
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"patch" implies fixing what is broken. everybody can agree that this is universally a Good Thing, fixing broken things that aren't as they were intended. if your "fixes" don't pass that test amongst your userbase, there's a good chance that you're overstepping your boundaries as a fixboy
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Dec 18, 2016 18:48
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Anyone have any recommendations for light source mods for use with ELFX? I can't see a single thing in the opening Helgen escape.
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Dec 18, 2016 19:04
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Raygereio posted:I'm saying that at the end of the day, the USKP is a mod. Like any other. And like any other mod the author(s) may have included things you like and stuff you don't like. That's simply a thing when it comes to modding. And your only options when faced with a mod like that are to either change the thing you don't like, to live with it, or don't use the mod at all. If you ever come up with a 4th option there, I'd like to see it. But I don't think there is one. Well, I'm not really interested in suggesting one, so  Raygereio posted:If I understand you right you want the USKP to please everyone. what Yo, how about you actually read the words I type where I explain what I want, Mr. "Read the Changelog!"
GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Dec 18, 2016 |
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Dec 18, 2016 19:05
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Agents are GO! posted:Edit: And go to hell, GunnerJ, you just made me defend Arthmoor. owned
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Dec 18, 2016 19:06
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Gloomy Rube posted:I think his point is less "Please everyone" and more a concern about if there are subjective changes that in the end aren't really what most people would want, like the dragon voice acting. It's a lot like how the fan translation for Final Fantasy 4 just stuck a bunch of pop culture references in where there weren't any in the original text, then the developers just shrugged and said "Can't please everyone" when called out on it. I mean all mods are "subjective". That also goes for mods that happen to call themselves a patch. To give an example: Heimskr is supposed to go to jail if Whiterun goes to the Imperials. If you look at the packages and scripts, it's obvious that Bethesda intended that and the fact that this doesn't happen is a bug. The USKP fixes this. I however happen to like Heimskr's ranting. So i changed that fix to where Heimskr continues ranting while in jail and is set free a few days later. Because I find the idea of the guards getting fed up with him funny. Should the USKP not have included that Heimskr fix just because I like his rants? I don't see any reason why it shouldn't. GunnerJ posted:Yo, how about you actually read the words I type where I explain what I want, Mr. "Read the Changelog!" If you don't like the wording of that, we can change it to something like "The USKP shouldn't contain anything 'subjective'", but that is still impossible. Any mod that wasn't made by you, for yourself, can and probably will contain something you don't like.If that really wasn't what you're going for, then I guess we're back to where I honestly don't get what it is you're trying to say. Oh well, hopefully this page was entertaining to read for someone.
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Dec 18, 2016 19:42
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GunnerJ posted:owned lol. So that water problem I had posted a few pages ago is back. Tis a mystery.
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Dec 18, 2016 19:43
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Raygereio posted:
What I don't like is that I literally, unironically, physically said exactly what it was that I wanted, the whole point of ever bringing this up, and you're ignoring it.
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Dec 18, 2016 19:57
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GunnerJ posted:Not quoting the OP for snark, just for convenience: Oh, I thought that was just a one-off joke. Had there been an attempt to correct those hilarious lines in the unofficial patch?
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Dec 18, 2016 20:14
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Agents are GO! posted:Honestly, Arth just puts the subjective stuff into his "Cutting Room Floor" mod, which is a decent compromise. I read through the changelogs because it's interesting to me, and there's plenty of "reverted change X from before, too subjective." CRF really is the most reasonable way to handle that stuff, and as much as we mock Artmoor, it was a good solution.
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Dec 18, 2016 20:21
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Ynglaur posted:CRF really is the most reasonable way to handle that stuff, and as much as we mock Artmoor, it was a good solution. Yeah, and honestly I kinda like what CRF adds. I'll give credit where it's due. I definitely don't think there some Artmoorian rot at the heart of the Unofficial Patch team.
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Dec 18, 2016 20:28
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Dr Cheeto posted:Oh, I thought that was just a one-off joke. Had there been an attempt to correct those hilarious lines in the unofficial patch? It was immediately mocked. Arthmoor & co dug their heels into the sand because they don't like criticism that implies (or outright says) they did something bad and decreed the lovely VA work was perfect and would stay. Shut Up, Mirmulnir was born which deletes all of Mirmulnir's lines because the lines themselves are dumb regardless of whether they're voiced or not.
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Dec 18, 2016 20:36
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Oh, I have never played this game without the unofficial patch and had no idea those hilariously bad lines weren't part of the game itself. When I first killed that dragon I about died laughing at DOHVAKIN?! NOOOOOO!
Dr Cheeto fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Dec 18, 2016 |
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Dec 18, 2016 20:40
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Dr Cheeto posted:Oh, I have never played this game without the unofficial patch and had no idea those hilariously bad lines weren't part of the game itself. When I first killed that dragon I about died laughing at DOHVAKIN?! NOOOOOO! The other dragons never speak in English do they? Besides ol' whitey?
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Dec 18, 2016 20:58
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On the bright side, it made Vader's awakening at the end of Episode 3 seem better by comparison. Given one of the words is "Dovakin", how much work would it be to just use the Russian or German or whatever voice files?
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Dec 18, 2016 20:58
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KakerMix posted:The other dragons never speak in English do they? Besides ol' whitey? Yeah, only Paarthurnax and Alduin have English lines, I think. E: and Odahviing! Dr Cheeto fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Dec 18, 2016 |
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Dec 18, 2016 21:08
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Dr Cheeto posted:Yeah, only Paarthurnax and Alduin have English lines, I think. I was going to say that there was one other dragon with English lines that you only met after completing the main story, but then I remembered I was thinking of Dragon's Dogma There's also the one you trap in Whiterun who flies you to the final dungeon.
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Dec 18, 2016 21:18
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Oh how could I forget my main man Odahviing
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Dec 18, 2016 21:22
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