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Not the NBA thread
euphronius fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 18, 2016 23:41
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dpeg posted:Re: wands of haste: There's been discussion about removing all of /haste, /heal wounds, /teleportation, and one can hope this will happen before 0.20. "Hope" is not a word I'd use here. I think this might be the worst change implementd yet, and that's pretty huge given the competition.
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Dec 18, 2016 23:43
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dpeg posted:
are you going to redesign other elements to match or is this a strict nerf to players? im guessing the latter since mut hasn't been touched still despite all the 'we're going to redesign bits honest' that got thrown around when rmut was removed.
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Dec 18, 2016 23:49
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Why would removing those wands be good for the game? Those are some of the only wands useful past the lair branches. It doesn't seem like they encourage degenerate play to me. Personally, I find that I care much less about this than High Elves.
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Dec 18, 2016 23:50
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I just realized Crawl's ultimate secret design philosophy: The game can only perfectly balanced when it has no features at all. 
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Dec 18, 2016 23:56
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brainwrinkle posted:Why would removing those wands be good for the game? Those are some of the only wands useful past the lair branches. It doesn't seem like they encourage degenerate play to me. and haste wand is basically just too good
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Dec 18, 2016 23:58
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Seriously? Has anyone ever complained about finding a good wand? If the issue is repeated access to these effects, I think a more elegant solutopn is increasing the rarity of or eliminating ?recharge. The good wants are fun.
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Dec 19, 2016 00:06
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Fitzy Fitz posted:I just realized Crawl's ultimate secret design philosophy: The game can only perfectly balanced when it has no features at all.
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Dec 19, 2016 00:06
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I took 4 acid wands into Zot with 17 Evo on my win yesterday. I think I zapped them about 4 times. They really weren't as useful as my rods or god abilities in killing important targets.
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Dec 19, 2016 00:06
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you don't usually get rods and god powers being used over specific wands depends hugely on context and which god you're running
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Dec 19, 2016 00:17
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Those wands are kind of insane. It's easy to compensate on a finer grained basis with the consumable versions, do characters really need the force multiplier of what is effectively like, a random 15-stack of haste potions?
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Dec 19, 2016 00:20
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Carcer posted:Are all the rings cursed? No but mainly stuff like rc+ int+2. That's like the extra enchantment the guy throws on to get you out of the shop. You'll be happy to hear the amulets were harm, randart harm, and gourmand. Goal here is to see how high I can get INT. It would be great to get to triple digits or even to the stat cap of 125, but it's gonna take a good bit of luck and/or a few zigs...
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Dec 19, 2016 00:28
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Yeah, I guess I don't really see why you need both a potion and wand version of those effects, except that the wand version can be used on allies/enemies.
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Dec 19, 2016 00:29
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Hey, the hyperbole about a hypothetic removal is already ramping up to tavern levels! I hope you guys realise that rhetoric comments a la "best Crawl = empty Crawl" really only serve to make me go back to c-r-d and IRC. I can definitely spell out why, in my opinion, these three wands are not good (again, designed; obviously they are very strong): all of them replicate consumables (scroll of teleportation, potion of haste/heal wounds). Removing the wands may be compensated by increasing the generation rates of those items somewhat. Yes, the wands can also be targeted at monsters/allies, but that means a slightly more annoying interface (one more prompt) and is almost never used anyway. In short, these wands are very power-gamey: they add extra power to (usually already strong by then) characters. For example, look at acquirement flowcharts. Another indication is that these wands don't take Evocations skill into account. Yes, that could be changed, too, but that's just another crutch: Haste/healing/getting away are very strong, emergency level, buffs. It's okay that they exist, but using them should come with decisions. The potions are rare enough to provide those decisions: if you have two potions of speed and three potions of Heal Wounds, then you may contemplate about whether to blow them on a D:9 encounter. By contrast, the wands provide so many charges that you can use them almost nilly-willy. (The scroll of recharging adds to the problem.) Powers that strong should not be spells and, I claim, not on wands either.
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Dec 19, 2016 00:36
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dpeg posted:Re: wands of haste: There's been discussion about removing all of /haste, /heal wounds, /teleportation, and one can hope this will happen before 0.20. Better revamp Ru, then. I read the dev wiki occasionally, and really like the postgame-roulette for 11 total runes idea
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Dec 19, 2016 01:00
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dpeg posted:Hey, the hyperbole about a hypothetic removal is already ramping up to tavern levels! I hope you guys realise that rhetoric comments a la "best Crawl = empty Crawl" really only serve to make me go back to c-r-d and IRC. LOL. I'm just a lurker, so don't get huffy and take a terrible revenge on the rest of the people in the thread for me saying this, but it can't be surprising by now that people consistently complain whenever Crawl removes flavor in favor of feature-flattening balance (= nothing). No amount of "Well LOGICALLY this feature is paralleled in function in 98.5% of cases by an alternate tactic, c'mon what is this??" is going to assuage everyone's desires. That's just part of devving a game, and threatening to listen to people EVEN LESS in revenge is a baby's move. Now it's been suggested before even here that it might be in your best interests to have another easily-downloaded branch of Crawl for all the stupid or obsolete poo poo, a CRAZY Crawl, you would immediately never have to listen to petulant demands to justify your balancing attempts again. You don't need to maintain it or take bugs for it. You would just direct people to the Crawl that still has their favorite X in it. With Crawl the devteam's opinion has always been "Why don't YOU go fork it then sucker", and that's perfectly legitimate, but most people can't and surely you can see why you then get hit with mountains of "hyperbol[ic] rhetoric".
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Dec 19, 2016 01:02
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dpeg posted:Hey, the hyperbole about a hypothetic removal is already ramping up to tavern levels! I hope you guys realise that rhetoric comments a la "best Crawl = empty Crawl" really only serve to make me go back to c-r-d and IRC. I wouldn't be surprised if crawldevs have some secret bingo game for all the dramatic overreactions any given change produces, but maybe if you wanted meaningful/productive discussion you could try explaining your reasoning first instead of just dropping an inflammatory "we're gonna do X" like a novice troll and then coming back to defend your assertion after people get agitated. One would think you'd have figured this out how this repeated conversation works by now, unless it makes you feel better to confirm how easily riled nerds are when you talk about messing with what they do for fun. e: to be fair though, I'm still trying to break the habit of just assuming people on the internet are mature adults who will apply logic when reading what I write and think before responding instead of just barfing the first superficial kneejerk they feel after skimming for key words. silentsnack fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 01:03
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Those wands are kind of insane. It's easy to compensate on a finer grained basis with the consumable versions, do characters really need the force multiplier of what is effectively like, a random 15-stack of haste potions? Actually, yes. We do
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Dec 19, 2016 01:04
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I like how dpeg apparently forgot that mummies and deep dwarves exist when contemplating removing the wand of heal wounds.Speleothing posted:Better revamp Ru, then. As someone that actually plays extended I find that idea to be terrible. The solution to extended is to just make Hell and Pan not take so long, and the way to do that is simple. Get rid of the 6 floors in every Hell branch that waste your time. Give the player a way to make pan rune levels more likely to spawn, such as by killing Pan lords. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 01:09
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I think a real consideration should be that something like haste, as simple and "bland" as it may be (150% output increase wow!), is attractive because being faster and therefore that much more powerful is fun. Maybe it needs to be more rare or situational, but I don't think there's anything wrong with players being able to haste in and of itself, there's plenty of unrands that fall under "overpowered". Maybe moving it to an unrand would make most people happy? e: Maybe a rechargeable evokable thingy since that way everyone could use it (unless you're Ru and.. you know)
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Dec 19, 2016 01:11
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silentsnack posted:I wouldn't be surprised if crawldevs have some secret bingo game for all the dramatic overreactions any given change produces quote:...but maybe if you wanted meaningful/productive discussion you could try explaining your reasoning first instead of just dropping an inflammatory "we're gonna do X" like a novice troll and then coming back to defend your assertion after people get agitated. One would think you'd have figured this out how this repeated conversation works by now, unless it makes you feel better to confirm how easily riled nerds are when you talk about messing with what they do for fun. re: Flavour: everyone's entitled to flavour fury, and I'm still bitter about removing book amnesia (obviously, because it was my idea and I just love book destruction in any form). PleasingFungus, we'll settle this in the afterlife! That said, I don't see much flavour in the wands -- that's just standard powergame fare, and people are afraid that more of their characters may die. Ogres and Elves are fair game, just release your anger.
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Dec 19, 2016 01:12
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silentsnack posted:I wouldn't be surprised if crawldevs have some secret bingo game for all the dramatic overreactions any given change produces, but maybe if you wanted meaningful/productive discussion you could try explaining your reasoning first instead of just dropping an inflammatory "we're gonna do X" like a novice troll and then coming back to defend your assertion after people get agitated. One would think you'd have figured this out how this repeated conversation works by now, unless it makes you feel better to confirm how easily riled nerds are when you talk about messing with what they do for fun. It's funny to see as a third party because the Crawl devs are totally right in thinking they don't need to kowtow to every idiot nerd who comes their way, but then they're also consistently surprised by it, like whoops, who coulda guessed roguelike gamers are even more personally invested than regular gamers? Who would've thought this nerd hobby for nerds might put me on the wrong side of nerds - and worse, HOW DO I GET THEM TO STOP? Today's changes: nullified four playstyles, added comment: "Haw haw eat it" With roguelikes, sometimes it feels unfair and you lose. Sometimes it feels unfair and you win. That's why they're special. Let every single other genre worry about neutering gameplay until these two things are never, ever allowed to happen. Oh my god, this is a wand of HASTE! I loving hate to be randomly conferred advantages! edit: Actually I forgot balance is a pretty important part of the Crawl mindset. Nothing more fun than distinct choices with the same projected effect. Cobweb Heart fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 01:16
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Internet Kraken posted:I like how dpeg apparently forgot that mummies and deep dwarves exist when contemplating removing the wand of heal wounds. This is easily corrected.
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Dec 19, 2016 01:17
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Ferrinus posted:This is easily corrected. By removing mummies and deep dwarves?
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Dec 19, 2016 01:18
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Speleothing posted:Actually, yes. We do dcss has had a "too many consumables" problem for a while now and I think a number of them could(should) go, starting with the redundant(and very strong) ones. wands of haste, when you get them, pretty much always mean you can haste for every single important fight in the whole game. it makes the game less interesting when you get so much more uses of a powerful effect(haste), potions of haste are cool because you don't get many of them so using them is meaningful.
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Dec 19, 2016 01:19
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:deleted intentionally:
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Dec 19, 2016 01:26
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I have fifteen runed once and have zero desire to do crypt or hell ever again ever. This is my experience with crawl post game. Pan is ok because at least you can zoom through the levels kinda quickly
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Dec 19, 2016 01:26
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Second win, this time with a polearm paladin. TSO the entire game. Trishula is nice. Cleaning flames nukes when you have problems are also nice. I don't know why the OOBs didn't mutate me more, maybe the MR helped IDK. http://pastebin.com/mgNVYy6s These things owned: B - ring "Zoadd" {rElec rPois EV+3 Slay+5 Stlth+} D - +2 pair of gloves "Tanwucol" {rF++ Regen+ Str-3 Dex+4} euphronius fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 01:32
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Saying 'we can just replace wands of haste with more haste potions' fundamentally misunderstands an aspect of game design. Finding a haste potion seven times is less exciting than finding a single wand of haste once. Finding 0-1 haste wands has more variability than finding n haste potions. The dramatic difference in tool availability gives different runs different advantages and disadvantages which gives them a different flavor each time. Removing the strong but rare wands literally makes Crawl less exciting and varied. The way that you have a potions with baseline availability and wands with swingy availability is actually a strength not a sign of redundancy that needs to be removed.
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Dec 19, 2016 02:02
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/HW is better because it's something you can potentially use multiple times in a fight if things go really badly. You start burning through the charges and run into recharging issues. You use haste once and it's effectively there for an entire encounter, unless your encounter is a rune vault (maybe two uses in that case!) or you encounter one of the incredibly rare effects that can strip buffs (I think it's just miscasts, hell effects and zot traps; maybe a unique can do it) Honestly I wouldn't be sad if wands of haste and teleportation went away forever. Also if you're changing consumables give potions of flight the swiftness effect and remove generic rings of flight.
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Dec 19, 2016 02:08
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I've beaten the game without a wand of hasting so many times I honestly wouldn't care if it was removed. I dunno if its anymore rare than wands of healing or teleportation but it sure feels like it. I don't think the removal is necessary either though. Also removing these wands would make the already miserable mummy experience even worse. TBH I dunno why haste never got some kind of drawback to make you not want to use it in every single fight. Not like there isn't a precedent for spells with downsides already. Darox posted:or you encounter one of the incredibly rare effects that can strip buffs (I think it's just miscasts, hell effects and zot traps; maybe a unique can do it) Quicksilver dragon and purple draconian breath dispels buffs. The Iron Serpent of Hell can also breath a dispelling beam. Not sure if anything else has access to that.
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Dec 19, 2016 02:37
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tote up a bags posted:I have fifteen runed once and have zero desire to do crypt or hell ever again ever. I agree, I just had a Ds that could have rolled extended, chat said it was a total waste to 5 rune. I thought about slogging through Tomb and Hells and just took the orb and went home. Extended was designed to be a cherry on the sundae. Unless you are doing a challenge run or playing for score it's not challenging or interesting enough for the extra effort. It's like a guy winning a 3 lap race then taking 12 victory laps.
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Dec 19, 2016 03:21
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lazorexplosion posted:Saying 'we can just replace wands of haste with more haste potions' fundamentally misunderstands an aspect of game design. emptyquote e: apple posted:I think a real consideration should be that something like haste, as simple and "bland" as it may be (150% output increase wow!), is attractive because being faster and therefore that much more powerful is fun. Maybe it needs to be more rare or situational, but I don't think there's anything wrong with players being able to haste in and of itself, there's plenty of unrands that fall under "overpowered". Maybe moving it to an unrand would make most people happy? There's a thread on the tavern about "Challenge Modes" and one suggestion is that no artefacts spawn. And I have to say that is the greatest challenge of them all. Because your resists are completely reliant on getting a ring or an armor or a weapon with multiples. Not to mention slaying or SInv or evokable properties. If the Devs want to make Crawl more balanced, don't take away the quality-of-life items like wands, self-buffs, or rMut & the other good amulets, take away the crazy RandArts and UnRands that let poor tactical play plow through lategame encounters. Except that you then run into lazor's point about good game design providing excitement. VVVVVV Also, this. Though I realy want to manage a 15-rune win at least once first. Closest I ever got ran out of permafoodVVVVVV Speleothing fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 03:34
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They seriously need to mix up the postgame, because currently it is: - Demons, in four hellish flavours - Demons, but on random floors and sometimes a really big demon comes along - Undead feat: Demons - Demons but you forget the map as you run around - Slimes Why can't we have a lair style postgame where you have a hub and then ~5 randomly selected 'worlds' to dive into? You could do some dope poo poo like VALHALLA or SPACE or NOT DEMONS
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Dec 19, 2016 03:35
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Because it wouldn't be not-Tolkien.  Also of all the unique entities in Abyss the only Demonic ones are Apocalypse Crabs (the rest are non-living!). And I don't think we want to remove those. Otherwise we would have words.
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Dec 19, 2016 03:46
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There are so many great monster ideas and levels that if I possessed any coding ability at all I'd contribute to Stoats idea.
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Dec 19, 2016 03:51
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Also, let's not forget that dpeg is trying to distract us from the crimes of a) ogres losing their m&f apt b) the whole malmutate situation edit: though I do agree with dpeg on book-destruction for spell slots being a good thing. I use it just about any time I get a caster past lair Speleothing fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 03:53
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tote up a bags posted:
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Dec 19, 2016 04:25
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ok im gonna write it up as a SERIOUS POST on the TAVERN so when i do you all have to UPBOAT it
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Dec 19, 2016 04:33
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| # ? May 13, 2024 22:06 |
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"Malmutate crime"  It's futile to try and divide devs: the stuff that actually gets carried out has been agreed upon (at least for testing... things do get reverted sometimes). Nothing has happened to malmutate, so don't get your hopes up. I'm pretty sure that rMut won't ever come back. Personally, I am all for meaningful decisions, and sources of rMut *remove* choices, despite appearances to the contrary. The mutation system is far from perfect, but a tool that just disables it is a bad approach. Stuff that does not seem move forward, such as food or extended, *is* being discussed. It's just harder to reach concensus or simply develop decent concepts. For both of these, progress is being made, if slow. It's actually good for something if you complain repeatedly about this, like orcs use to do, because that drives the point home: thinking about Hell/Pan etc. is relevant to some players. re: Ogres: I have some investment in the species: when we discussed the Ogre Mage removal, I suggested to try out the particular aptitude niche of high Spellcasting and really bad other magic skills. That probably wasn't my worst idea, but perhaps Crawl is not the ideal game for this. Anyway, since the Og change, their focus is a bit different. Here, loudly complaining about "they ruined GSC ogres, stupid devs" will achieve absolutely nothing (except brownie points for the dev in charge, counted and celebrated at our HQ). Instead, if you do play new ogre and talk about it, now that could be interesting.
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Dec 19, 2016 04:35
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