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teagone posted:You can't debate that the arcs of Jyn or Cassian are comparable to the development of Luke as a farm boy to Death Star infiltrator That's not development. That's a loving costume. That's like talking about Jyn's development from an apolitical thief to an Imperial Base infiltrator. It doesn't say anything about who she is as a person, and Luke is still a loving dweeb at the end of that movie. It takes later movies to give him some depth.
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Dec 19, 2016 03:17
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AdmiralViscen posted:Han goes from packing money and bailing to returning to help with no explanation. It's ok because it's a fun action serial that wasn't picked to pieces, and the characters grew in later installments (obviously won't happen this time). Rewatch A New Hope. The explanation for Han returning is right there in the scene with Luke while Han is packing up his reward. Throughout A New Hope, Luke and Han went through a hell of an adventure together. They became bros. You can see Luke's disappointment when he realizes Han is bailing with his money. Han see's Luke disappointment too, and at the end of the scene, even Chewie is essentially saying Luke is right; the rebellion needs them. You can feel the hesitation in his actions. Han coming back to save Luke's rear end is something the audience always knew, deep down inside, is what what would happen based on the characters' prior interactions. That action in of itself was rewarding for everyone to see unfold in such a dire situation. quote:Jyn actually has on-screen motivation (cliche or not - again, it's an action serial) to go from not giving a poo poo to giving a poo poo about the task at hand, and Cassian doesn't seem like the type to shoot an acquaintance in the back by the end of the movie like he is at the start. Jyn's whole storyline primarily revolves around her father. We know nothing else about her motivations or wants and needs. She lacks any kind of developmental arc. How do we know she didn't give a poo poo? Mulva posted:That's not development. That's a loving costume. That's like talking about Jyn's development from an apolitical thief to an Imperial Base infiltrator. It doesn't say anything about who she is as a person, and Luke is still a loving dweeb at the end of that movie. It takes later movies to give him some depth. It was a generalization of Luke's character development in A New Hope, which is much more robust than any character in Rogue One. Maybe Jyn has infiltrated imperial bases before since she apparently was trained to fight by Saw. We don't know. Like I said, we're introduced to Jyn under extremely vague circumstances and she never really gets fleshed out. By comparison we're introduced to Luke as a farmboy, and we learn that he wants to get out of his boring life and have awesome space adventures, which he eventually does. We experience that growth with him throughout the film, all the way to the end where he has become a man taking his first step into a larger world. You can't tell me the Luke at the end receiving the medal for destroying the Death Star is the same Luke wanting to pick up power converters. Dude has seen some poo poo. By comparison, we're introduced to Jyn, and what is she? Who is she? Why was she in prison? Ok, the rebellion wants to use her to get an in with Saw so as to obtain pertinent information for the rebellion and she agrees so that she can be set free. Nothing really changes about her character that we know of except that her father dies in the process of getting said information to the rebellion, and then she dies when she actually gets that information to the rebellion. teagone fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 04:01
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AdmiralViscen posted:Han goes from packing money and bailing to returning to help with no explanation. It's ok because it's a fun action serial that wasn't picked to pieces, and the characters grew in later installments (obviously won't happen this time). I like to think of Han as the other side of the coin as Chirrut, his steadfast denial finds a way to propel him towards destiny.
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Dec 19, 2016 04:05
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teagone posted:By comparison we're introduced to Luke as a farmboy, and we learn that he wants to get out of his boring life and have awesome space adventures, which he eventually does. That's not loving character growth, that's scenery. He starts the movie a hick dirt farmer, and he's still a hick dirt farmer when he's on the Death Star. And he's still a hick dirt farmer getting a medal at the end of the movie. He hasn't changed, his circumstances have.
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Dec 19, 2016 04:23
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Mulva posted:That's not loving character growth, that's scenery. He starts the movie a hick dirt farmer, and he's still a hick dirt farmer when he's on the Death Star. And he's still a hick dirt farmer getting a medal at the end of the movie. He hasn't changed, his circumstances have. I know it's not productive when discussing art to say this but: that's just wrong Symbolically, textually and in every other way, Luke's heroes journey takes him beyond the farm
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Dec 19, 2016 04:28
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Waffles Inc. posted:I know it's not productive when discussing art to say this but: that's just wrong Bullshit, that happens in the other movies when he actually has to think about things and make sacrifices and ask himself what he believes. He isn't really done figuring out who he is until the moment he faces Vader for the second time, realizes he can kill him, and realizes that is the wrong choice. At the end of the first movie he is, yes, a hick dirt farmer that wandered through a wacky adventure and used his poorly understood mystic power to take a single shot. He's still that dumb little prick thinking about being a pilot and blowing poo poo up, just because it sounded cool back on the farm. That's not character growth, that's job advancement.
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Dec 19, 2016 04:36
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Mulva posted:Bullshit, that happens in the other movies when he actually has to think about things and make sacrifices and ask himself what he believes. He isn't really done figuring out who he is until the moment he faces Vader for the second time, realizes he can kill him, and realizes that is the wrong choice. At the end of the first movie he is, yes, a hick dirt farmer that wandered through a wacky adventure and used his poorly understood mystic power to take a single shot. He's still that dumb little prick thinking about being a pilot and blowing poo poo up, just because it sounded cool back on the farm. That's not character growth, that's job advancement. What would constitute "evidence" to you that he changes past being a farmer in ANH? Is it ideology? Actions? Wardrobe?
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Dec 19, 2016 04:40
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Mulva posted:That's not loving character growth, that's scenery. He starts the movie a hick dirt farmer, and he's still a hick dirt farmer when he's on the Death Star. And he's still a hick dirt farmer getting a medal at the end of the movie. He hasn't changed, his circumstances have. Luke's motivations changed because he is a victim of circumstance. He's no longer a timid moisture farmer with aspirations of becoming a star pilot by the end of A New Hope. Not only does he become a full blown rebel that has accepted his destiny, but he also wants to train in the ways of the Force after learning about his Jedi heritage. Luke has moved well beyond being a "hick dirt farmer" even before the third act. teagone fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 04:41
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"There's nothing for me here now. I want to learn the ways of the force and become a Jedi like my father" Spoken like a true hick farmer
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Dec 19, 2016 04:44
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Waffles Inc. posted:What would constitute "evidence" to you that he changes past being a farmer in ANH? Is it ideology? Actions? Wardrobe? It's funny because all three of those change over the course of the film for Luke, haha.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:00
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Waffles Inc. posted:"There's nothing for me here now. I want to learn the ways of the force and become a Jedi like my father" He says that in the first 30 minutes of movie 1 and achieves it in the last 10 minutes of movie 3 Jyn wants to be a selfish loner and eventually becomes part of a movement and bonds with a person she was dismissive of. While getting closure for her feelings of abandonment. It's not as grand a journey as Luke's and it's not meant to be, but it's about what you should expect from this franchise by now. At least Jyn has agency, Luke is propelled into the spotlight when he's left homeless and just does what he's told by Obi Wan all movie. Jyn could have peeled off on her own at any time but kept going by her own will. If you want to bash the movie maybe go for the disjointed, rushed first act or the naked fan service or something. I think people are taking three decades and three movies worth of goodwill towards the character of Luke and applying it to someone who has to begin and end her tale in 2 hours.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:04
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I liked the bounty looking type character that was Saw's henchman and was bullying the pilot. He was yellow and looked kinda like Cyrax. Does he have a character name? It seemed like the cameras focused on him a few times which was cool, like he had a crazy backstory.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:06
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Waffles Inc. posted:What would constitute "evidence" to you that he changes past being a farmer in ANH? Is it ideology? Actions? Wardrobe? Literally anything, as we get nothing to show any change in his character in that movie. For instance teagone posted:He's no longer a timid moisture farmer he was never timid to start with. A whiny bitch, but not timid. He'd whine to everyone about his bullshit, no hesitation. Or take this Waffles Inc. posted:"There's nothing for me here now. I want to learn the ways of the force and become a Jedi like my father" because it totally is. It's just another way out of his stupid hick life. It doesn't mean anything, because all it expresses itself as is.....him becoming a pilot like he first talked about and blowing poo poo up. He doesn't change his character at any point. His father's legacy and the mystic powers of the Force are effectively the Army Recruitment center at the strip mall of his one cantina hick town. Remember the massive jump in time between the first two movies, and how all he's done in that time is.....pilot a ship, blow stuff up, and occasionally ineffectually wave around his glow stick. He has no attachment to the Force, no drive about it. It's just some cool tricks that give him a ticket out of his boring life. He needs a near death experience to consider the Force again as an actual thing he should be caring about. It's not until he meets Yoda that he starts really thinking about the Force, and he almost totally ignores everything Yoda says in the end. Because he's a stupid hick dirt farmer. And it ends in tragedy for him. The only time he really, really internalizes everything he's been told is when he's beating his father's rear end and realizes he can kill him. And that he wants to kill him. And that that is the wrong thing to do. Then, and pretty much only then, does he truly start to act like a Jedi. He's used some sick rear end Force powers before then, but they aren't the point. Not killing his father is getting the point. THAT, that is character growth. Not "BUT HE WAS ON A FARM AND THEN HE JOINED THE STAR WARS AND NOW HE'S A PILOT AND HAS A MEDAL THIS IS CHARACTER GROWTH!".
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Dec 19, 2016 05:09
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AdmiralViscen posted:Jyn hiding in a hole in the ground fearfully staring up at the porthole doesn't do the same? Luke staring at the suns comes after a long, talky, low-key sequence introducing his character (squeaky dork who literally jumps when he finds out the androids were with the rebellion), Jyn staring at the porthole is a standard-issue suspense moment. What do we know about her? She had loving parents and she has a magic rock and she can run really fast. It's not a shot that tells us anything about her, except maybe "good at hiding", which is arguably thematically relevant but it's not a dramatic moment of reflection. Luke staring at the suns puts the audience in his shoes ("think of the wonder out there") and serves as a punctuation before the next sequence of events - can he live up to his dreams?
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Dec 19, 2016 05:17
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AdmiralViscen posted:He says that in the first 30 minutes of movie 1 and achieves it in the last 10 minutes of movie 3 Let's just ignore Obi-Wan's initial teachings about the Force during the makeshift training session while on the Falcon where Luke learns to trust his instincts. Or also ignore when Obi-Wan encourages Luke to let go and let the Force flow through him at the end film while on the bombing run to destroy the Death Star. You also keep making this excuse that because Star Wars is an action serial, weak character development gets a pass... why? Remember that the only reason Jyn went along with trying to get an in with Saw for the rebellion is because Mon Mothma agreed to free her from imprisonment. Nothing in the Rogue One suggested her motivation changed or diverged from that resolution at the end of the film when she dies. What led you to believe Jyn wanted to be a selfish loner? quote:If you want to bash the movie maybe go for the disjointed, rushed first act or the naked fan service or something. I think people are taking three decades and three movies worth of goodwill towards the character of Luke and applying it to someone who has to begin and end her tale in 2 hours. I haven't mentioned anything regarding Luke's development in ESB or ROTJ. I've made comparisons only to developmental changes made to Luke's character in A New Hope.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:21
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Edit: ah never mind.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:24
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Bioshuffle posted:I personally felt that the blind monk was easily the worst part of the movie. He was obviously put there to appeal to kids and sell figurines. They went for the more realistic gritty angle, with people getting shot and blown up. Suddenly you have this literally blind monk slowly walking towards the switch and every single storm trooper misses him. How? There was literally no explanation given for this anomaly. Remember that the storm troopers even take up a position by a trench so they could take accurate shots at the gang. If you'll recall, one soldier attempts to run out and gets nailed before he can even make it out into the open. lol this is the stupidest post I've read in months
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Dec 19, 2016 05:26
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Mulva posted:The only time he really, really internalizes everything he's been told is when he's beating his father's rear end and realizes he can kill him. And that he wants to kill him. And that that is the wrong thing to do. Then, and pretty much only then, does he truly start to act like a Jedi. He's used some sick rear end Force powers before then, but they aren't the point. Not killing his father is getting the point. THAT, that is character growth. Not "BUT HE WAS ON A FARM AND THEN HE JOINED THE STAR WARS AND NOW HE'S A PILOT AND HAS A MEDAL THIS IS CHARACTER GROWTH!". Haha, ok.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:27
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teagone posted:Haha, ok. Why be an rear end? He's 100% right.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:31
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teagone posted:Let's just ignore Obi-Wan's initial teachings about the Force during the makeshift training session while on the Falcon where Luke learns to trust his instincts. Or also ignore when Obi-Wan encourages Luke to let go and let the Force flow through him at the end film while on the bombing run to destroy the Death Star. Jyn was rescued from prison and immediately beat up her rescuers to run off on her own, selfishly and lonerly You cited Luke's desire to be a Jedi like his father as a point of development that Jyn can't compare to. But Luke learns so little about his father in ANH (and 90% of ESB) that they could retcon his father's identity to that of the film's villain without anyone noticing. The point is that if you isolate what we know about Luke/Han/Leia strictly to ANH then you have three pretty broad archetypes not dissimilar from what you got in this movie. I don't know what people were expecting.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:32
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Luke gets the poo poo established out of him. He's a teenager who desperately wants adventure, and then he's drawn into it by tragic means that compel him to take the reins, then they go to the cantina where he discovers exactly how small a fry he really is, which puts him into the position of apprentice to Obi-Wan. And that's all before they meet Han Solo, 45 minutes in. It's archetypal but it's filled out and vibrant, which Jyn's story isn't. R1's treatment of characters is super barebones.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:37
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Jyn gets the poo poo established out of her. She's a teenager who desperately wants to be left alone, and then she's drawn into it by a kidnapping that forces her to confront the people she has blamed for her abandonment, then they go to Yavin IV where she discovers exactly how small a fry she really is, which puts her on a path to reconnect with her father(s) and redefine her view of her life and her place in the galaxy. And that's all before they meet Saw, 45 minutes in. It's archetypal but it's filled out and vibrant, Like Luke's. ANH and R1's treatment of characters is super barebones and works great in service to the adventure plot.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:45
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Vintersorg posted:Why be an rear end? He's 100% right. I've left responses in relatively civil fashion. That dude is the one who sarcastically threw my argument back at me in that last sentence. Was just closing out the debate because he won't convince me and I won't convince him based on that attitude.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:46
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AdmiralViscen posted:Jyn gets the poo poo established out of her. She's a teenager who desperately wants to be left alone, and then she's drawn into it by a kidnapping that forces her to confront the people she has blamed for her abandonment, then they go to Yavin IV where she discovers exactly how small a fry she really is, which puts her on a path to reconnect with her father(s) and redefine her view of her life and her place in the galaxy. And that's all before they meet Saw, 45 minutes in. It's archetypal but it's filled out and vibrant, Like Luke's. ANH and R1's treatment of characters is super barebones and works great in service to the adventure plot. Yeah but she's super uncharismatic and the dialogue is terrible.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:50
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Magic Hate Ball posted:Yeah but she's super uncharismatic and the dialogue is terrible. "But I was going into Toshi Station to pick up some power converters!", cried the savior of the universe bitchily. If you didn't spend half that movie wanting someone to kick him in the dick you are a more accepting person than me.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:53
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AdmiralViscen posted:Jyn gets the poo poo established out of her. She's a teenager who desperately wants to be left alone, and then she's drawn into it by a kidnapping that forces her to confront the people she has blamed for her abandonment, then they go to Yavin IV where she discovers exactly how small a fry she really is, which puts her on a path to reconnect with her father(s) and redefine her view of her life and her place in the galaxy. And that's all before they meet Saw, 45 minutes in. It's archetypal but it's filled out and vibrant, Like Luke's. ANH and R1's treatment of characters is super barebones and works great in service to the adventure plot. From my initial viewing the film does a very poor job of establishing Jyn. A lot of what you say here isn't necessarily established in the film, more assumptions based on events of the plot/knowing character progression from these types of movies. Her character going through the steps you listed does not mean those steps were achieved in an organic way. In my viewing the 'growth' she goes through is a function of the plot, not through any establishing of a character. She is absolutely not filled out and vibrant, especially compared to Luke. A New Hope lets you see facets of characters which are not directly related to the plot happening onscreen. Rogue One doesn't. The characters in Rogue One are directly a function to propel the plot. You don't get to know them, at all, outside of them reacting to whatever is happening at that point in the plot.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:57
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Mulva posted:"But I was going into Toshi Station to pick up some power converters!", cried the savior of the universe bitchily. Yeah, but I love him for that. He's such a squeaky doofus ("Uncle luke!") and he does a great job of playing a fish-out-of-water everykid. The interactions between him and the swashbuckling seen-it-all Han Solo are great and you get loads of little details in their physical actions (watch them in the Stormtrooper suits when transporting Chewie, they both act in different ways).
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Dec 19, 2016 06:00
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AdmiralViscen posted:Jyn gets the poo poo established out of her. She's a teenager who desperately wants to be left alone, and then she's drawn into it by a kidnapping that forces her to confront the people she has blamed for her abandonment, then they go to Yavin IV where she discovers exactly how small a fry she really is, which puts her on a path to reconnect with her father(s) and redefine her view of her life and her place in the galaxy. And that's all before they meet Saw, 45 minutes in. It's archetypal but it's filled out and vibrant, Like Luke's. ANH and R1's treatment of characters is super barebones and works great in service to the adventure plot. I wouldn't say she gets the poo poo established out of her. We never really get to know Jyn aside from her papa problems, that's my main gripe with the film. But your description is actually a really good breakdown of events that happens to Jyn's character. My issue is the film does a really poor of job of expressing how those events change Jyn, and as such, the film suffers because of that overall; such a bland and underdeveloped lead doesn't get me as interested or invested in the story. Still, it's a fun movie with some really great choice bits, but man the characters were weak as hell. [edit] Mulva posted:"But I was going into Toshi Station to pick up some power converters!", cried the savior of the universe bitchily. By the end of A New Hope, Luke was no longer concerned about wasting time with his friends at the Toshi Station. He was a soldier in the Rebel Alliance with the hope of becoming a Jedi like his father. teagone fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 06:00
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Maybe my own upbringing lets me see her point of view more than you can, but I really had no problem understanding her development as the movie went on. She does have a narrower scope than Luke does but I say that is okay
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Dec 19, 2016 06:13
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teagone posted:I wouldn't say she gets the poo poo established out of her. We never really get to know Jyn aside from her papa problems, that's my main gripe with the film. But your description is actually a really good breakdown of events that happens to Jyn's character. My issue is the film does a really poor of job of expressing how those events change Jyn, and as such, the film suffers because of that overall; such a bland and underdeveloped lead doesn't get me as interested or invested in the story. Yeah, this is what bothers me. She technically goes from one place to the other, but there's little to no elaboration on it. ANH would be incredibly unfun if the characters were as flat and underwritten as they are in R1 and that's a huge shame given how stunningly pretty it is. edit: also, Luke saves the day by using the skill he learned in the process of the movie. Jyn presses a button. Magic Hate Ball fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 06:14
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Magic Hate Ball posted:Yeah, this is what bothers me. She technically goes from one place to the other, but there's little to no elaboration on it. ANH would be incredibly unfun if the characters were as flat and underwritten as they are in R1 and that's a huge shame given how stunningly pretty it is. Yeah it's not like she had to risk her life to push that button.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:41
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Wandle Cax posted:Yeah it's not like she had to risk her life to push that button. It's just not very exceptional, any of the characters could have done that. It's bland and uncreative.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:47
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Saw this yesterday. I'm normally very reserved in theaters. I'm easily annoyed at people that make noise or talk at all. However, the boarding scene with Vader made me produce some sort of shirek I cannot explain.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:50
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AdmiralViscen posted:Maybe my own upbringing lets me see her point of view more than you can, but I really had no problem understanding her development as the movie went on. Is this just a polite and passive-aggressive way of calling me a stupid simpleton raised by idiots? Haha. If we were introduced to adult Jyn with a scene that shows us why she's in prison, that scene could have been used as a platform to establish her motivations and who she was to get her narrative arc rolling. In the final cut, Jyn is just... there. I have no problem understanding what Jyn went through in the narrative, it's just my issue is that what she goes through in the entirety of Rogue One has no emotional impact because of her lack of a well defined arc. Yeah, she has does have some kind of an arc in the film (more like a slight bend heh), but like you said it's more narrow in scope and to me it's poorly developed.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:52
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Magic Hate Ball posted:It's just not very exceptional, any of the characters could have done that. It's bland and uncreative. All of the characters sacrifice their lives for the greater good. It isn't exceptional, it's courageous and selfless. Even at the end, the nameless soldiers all throw themselves at Vader just to be sure the plans get secured. That's the point. This movie isn't about larger than life figures. It's about the grunts on the front line who don't make it.
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Dec 19, 2016 07:01
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Codependent Poster posted:All of the characters sacrifice their lives for the greater good. It isn't exceptional, it's courageous and selfless. Even at the end, the nameless soldiers all throw themselves at Vader just to be sure the plans get secured. Boring, faceless grunts. edit: most war movies about grunts have well-written characters. The point is usually to examine the psychological ins and outs of the average human being in a wartime situation. Paths of Glory, for example, or Das Boot. I can't think of a war movie with bland, vague characters that's good. Magic Hate Ball fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 07:02
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Ya, maybe next movie they can focus more time on each grunt and really flesh them out.
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Dec 19, 2016 07:06
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Codependent Poster posted:All of the characters sacrifice their lives for the greater good. It isn't exceptional, it's courageous and selfless. Even at the end, the nameless soldiers all throw themselves at Vader just to be sure the plans get secured. For me personally Rogue One was weighed down by the Star Wars trappings. I think Fury did this premise in a much more engaging way, and part of that I think is because they didn't have to deal with including Star Wars lore. Like, if we're going to do a movie about the grunts on the front line, make it about that. Like imagine if Jyn and company were just rebel soldiers from the get go, and the movie was about a company of rebel soldiers who are working toward the goal of discovering information about the Death Star. Forget the whole dad poo poo.
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Dec 19, 2016 07:12
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Has anyone pointed out yet that this movie ending like five minutes before ANH doesn't make sense? "We were on a diplomatic mission of peace" "Actually I just chased you from a big loving space battle just now? I mean we were all just like right there" Explain that away with a Wookieepedia article you fuckers!
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Dec 19, 2016 07:37
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The opening crawl to 4 literally says they are fleeing from the battle where the Rebels just got the plans, with the Empire in pursuit. Nothing has changed.
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Dec 19, 2016 07:46
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