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i was curious how it'd look without the "hey dude people like you suck" parts and the quiltbag listing at the end
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Dec 19, 2016 04:43
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Gene Hackman Fan posted:for what it's worth, the creator of those images lifted a paragraph from redneckrevolt's "about us" page. i think they intended it as a proof of concept. They're good pictures, especially the one you mention. They seems more like they're aimed at making people outside of that community sympathetic to those in it instead of trying to get people within that community to come around, though. Both things need to happen in the long run, but yeah, the text on those might as well be Chinese if your goal is to speak to a lot of the working class. Take a page from Trump's playbook. Simple, plain, no bullshit type stuff. "Can a man call himself a man if his neighbor is starving and he doesn't lift a finger?" "Is it OK to step on your neighbor on the way to success?" Something a lot of people may not realize is that in a lot of those depressed areas, there is a definite sense of community and charity, even if it does come from religion. There's an undercurrent there you can tap into, you just have to know ho to reach it, and intersectional IDPOL is not the way at all. At least, not in the way it's traditionally been presented.
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Dec 19, 2016 04:45
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Prav posted:i was curious how it'd look without the "hey dude people like you suck" parts and the quiltbag listing at the end If it's done right it could be effective, but if you're trying to reach this particular audience, starting out with a statement that calls out the military as a tool of the wealthy and powerful is probably not a good way to start. Not that I think it's wrong, it's just not the first thing I'd throw out there.
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Dec 19, 2016 04:49
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RedneckwithGuns posted:If it's done right it could be effective, but if you're trying to reach this particular audience, starting out with a statement that calls out the military as a tool of the wealthy and powerful is probably not a good way to start. Not that I think it's wrong, it's just not the first thing I'd throw out there. yeah goes under the "hey dude people like you suck" clause i suppose. i often forget just how large a portion of the us have family closely connected to the military.
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Dec 19, 2016 04:57
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Just in general, there's no point in alienating people off-the-bat for the sole purpose of being a smug rear end in a top hat. I mean, don't get me wrong, being smug feels great, but it should be a guilty pleasure.
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Dec 19, 2016 04:58
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Prav posted:yeah goes under the "hey dude people like you suck" clause i suppose. i often forget just how large a portion of the us have family closely connected to the military. I'm the first male child in my family in 4+ generations not to have been drafted. My father was drafted to Vietnam, came back protesting against the war after he got out, and is still proud to have served. This is extremely common in the WWC, and the poorer you get, the more proud they are about serving primarily because they don't have a pot to piss in and that's something they've done in their lives that was bigger than them and impacted the world. It just isn't possible to spend enough time or effort to bring them all around to the typical liberal outlook on things in that department. They will definitely listen to you on economic issues though, and lots of them aren't as married to the Republicans as ideologically as you'd think.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:04
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Prav posted:i was curious how it'd look without the "hey dude people like you suck" parts and the quiltbag listing at the end The original said, "white," so many times that it felt like it was written by someone who thought he was trying to trick assholes
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Dec 19, 2016 05:08
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yeah, I think the idea is cool but those images feel like you're talking at someone rather than with them. I think the tone should be simpler and focus primarily on building anti-establishment sentiment (against Republicans and Democrats alike) over economic issues instead of stuff like "the military-industrial complex is using you". Base this rhetoric in terms that are immediately relatable, like "Washington elites want to get rid of your Medicare and Social Security"
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Dec 19, 2016 05:09
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rudatron posted:Just in general, there's no point in alienating people off-the-bat for the sole purpose of being a smug rear end in a top hat. I mean, don't get me wrong, being smug feels great, but it should be a guilty pleasure. yeah but the smugger they are, the more devastatingly owned they get when they lose and this year was the devastatingliest own of all
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Dec 19, 2016 05:13
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Zo posted:yeah but the smugger they are, the more devastatingly owned they get when they lose They hosed over a lot of people they claim to be the vulnerable and scared of Trump.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:14
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(afore i go, tho: have a couple more of them memes. like cornbread, there's plenty to go around.)               
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Dec 19, 2016 05:25
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The progressives or whatever we're calling ourselves now really, really needs to not poo poo on the loving military or scream about imperialism and the military-industrial complex and how bad all that is. Turns out, a lot of people think that all of that Is Actually Good. Like it doesn't matter what the truth of the matter is, just don't piss on something someone likes if you're trying to convince them to join your side.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:26
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Dec 19, 2016 05:28
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Yeah, the military is recognized as being socially necessary and it's the only real livelihood for a lot of people without many other opportunities, so 'imperialism' is usually a non-starter. I don't think people think that's 'good', more that that's not the way they see the armed forces.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:29
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:The progressives or whatever we're calling ourselves now really, really needs to not poo poo on the loving military or scream about imperialism and the military-industrial complex and how bad all that is. Turns out, a lot of people think that all of that Is Actually Good. "Sending our kids to die for oil is bad" seems pretty inoffensive but I'll defer to field research on it. e: Also "The US military shouldn't prop up every state in the world - they should contribute their fair share to the burden."
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Dec 19, 2016 05:29
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lefties like to poo poo on the military-industrial complex but that poo poo keeps a lot of people employed, especially in regions that wouldn't have much industry otherwise. that's all industry and effort that could have gone to more productive things but you're not going to gain any friends by telling people that they're furthering the amerikkkan empire by working at a raytheon plant or getting deployed in afghanistan or whatever
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Dec 19, 2016 05:31
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Turn it back on to the rich. Dont critizise the miltary as a tool, critizize the corrupt politicians for sending Our Boys to die so they can make a quick buck instead of defending freedom.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:31
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:The progressives or whatever we're calling ourselves now really, really needs to not poo poo on the loving military or scream about imperialism Maybe if we just call it something other than imperialism, it'll make the millions of dead feel better.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:34
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You gotta support are troops at all times. There are some situations where you can complain about F35 cost overruns however.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:34
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:The progressives or whatever we're calling ourselves now really, really needs to not poo poo on the loving military or scream about imperialism and the military-industrial complex and how bad all that is. Turns out, a lot of people think that all of that Is Actually Good. Consider this Trump-Veterans-Support article written by somebody who thought Clinton was going to win. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/03/us/politics/donald-trump-veterans.html If we're going to try and reach out to some of these interviewed, one worried about future boondoggles like Iraq Afghanistand & Vietnam, that guy might be reached if we can tap into that and offer something alternative to what will most likely be a really bad recession ahead. Nonsense has issued a correction as of 05:37 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 05:35
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Joementum posted:Maybe if we just call it something other than imperialism, it'll make the millions of dead feel better. Maybe if you cast a wide enough net to win an election you can do something about it instead of having literal Disney villains in charge.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:36
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Joementum posted:Maybe if we just call it something other than imperialism, it'll make the millions of dead feel better. Remember a few weeks back when the candidate who said it was a waste of money for America to have military bases all over the world won the election?
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Dec 19, 2016 05:37
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new phone who dis posted:Maybe if you cast a wide enough net to win an election you can do something about it instead of having literal Disney villains in charge. Hillary 2016!
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Dec 19, 2016 05:37
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I am legit glad that this thread can drop nihilism posting long enough to improve peoples outreach projects effectively 
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Dec 19, 2016 05:38
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Agean90 posted:I am legit glad that this thread can drop nihilism posting long enough to improve peoples outreach projects effectively We're probably all going to die through a confluence of factors in the next 50 years but hey on the off chance we don't let's try and improve people's lives.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:40
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Joementum posted:Maybe if we just call it something other than imperialism, it'll make the millions of dead feel better.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:40
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Joementum posted:Maybe if we just call it something other than imperialism, it'll make the millions of dead feel better. Because that's certainly what I said, yes indeed.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:43
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Nonsense posted:Consider this Trump-Veterans-Support article written by somebody who thought Clinton was going to win. What exactly is being referred to here? Like honestly, I'm not fishing for outrage or whatever, I'm really genuinely curious.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:43
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rudatron posted:foreign downsizing liberating hearts and minds
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Dec 19, 2016 05:44
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no no, liberarting hearts from minds
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Dec 19, 2016 05:46
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Something else worth remembering is that there are lots of minorities who are pretty stoked on the military for one reason or another as well. Whether their Filipino parents followed a path into citizenship through the Navy or if they're proud as gently caress Latinos trying to prove to everyone that they're just as American as everyone else, these people legitimately exist. Minorities are only in the bag for Dems right now because of how lovely Republicans have previously been. If the right gets a more populist thing going, the Dems could see inroads being made into what were once thought safe communities they had in their pocket. I don't think it would happen with the blacks, but the Asians and Latinos are very much a possibility the further and further they become Americanized and start thinking that all the "Real American" talk means them, too.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:47
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You just need politicians who actually give a gently caress about the military, good luck with that.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:49
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Joementum posted:Maybe if we just call it something other than imperialism, it'll make the millions of dead feel better. This is the kind of smug patronizing attitude we need, collectively, to knock the gently caress off.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:49
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rudatron posted:Do we have any military or military related peeps in here? The constant refrain I'm seeing in this article is the 'widening gulf veterans feel between themselves and other americans'. It's hard to be as critical of the war as many sections of the left are in the US without part of it being directed at the soldiers themselves. This happened in Vietnam and it's happening still, but to a lesser degree with veterans today. The political right are the people who put them over in harm's way for lovely reasons and are loving them over on getting treated and reacclimated to society, and sections of the left think they are unstable baby killers who need to be monitored and managed.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:50
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:This is the kind of smug patronizing attitude we need, collectively, to knock the gently caress off. forgive joementum, he was so thoroughly stumped by trump during the primaries that he was never the same again
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Dec 19, 2016 05:51
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These issues matter if we're going to go to war again, because Iran or whoever else is going to be a much bigger thunder lizard to slay than Iraq. But Trump "would not hold them back".
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Dec 19, 2016 05:53
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new phone who dis posted:Something else worth remembering is that there are lots of minorities who are pretty stoked on the military for one reason or another as well. it's literally the closest thing the working poor have to living in a functioning socialist state irt pay, services, housing, medical care, etc. Edit: The majority of rural poor I've seen who advocate Single Payer and were convinced were convinced due to medicare and tricare. mugrim has issued a correction as of 05:55 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 05:53
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new phone who dis posted:It's hard to be as critical of the war as many sections of the left are in the US without part of it being directed at the soldiers themselves. This happened in Vietnam and it's happening still, but to a lesser degree with veterans today. The political right are the people who put them over in harm's way for lovely reasons and are loving them over on getting treated and reacclimated to society, and sections of the left think they are unstable baby killers who need to be monitored and managed. okay, so just to try and tease it out more: the standard response you'll get from those critics, if you say that to them, is that that's not actually true, that the reason they're criticizing is because they care, etc etc. Does that simply not resonate at all, and if not, why not? Again, not fishing here, curious. If you have some personal experience that you think might help explain it, then feel free to air it.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:54
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rudatron posted:Do we have any military or military related peeps in here? The constant refrain I'm seeing in this article is the 'widening gulf veterans feel between themselves and other americans'. Some of it is the inevitable result of having an all-volunteer force, some of it is the fact that the sorts of deployments that veterans are coming back from these days are really, really hard to talk about with anyone who didn't go through the same thing, and believe it or not there's even negative stereotypes about veterans.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:56
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I was brought up right wing in rural Indiana, drenched in Fox News to the point where I was defending Bush in the Year of Our Lord 2008. Cast my first presidential ballot for McCain, but I rectified this with a vote for Obama in 2012. I can't really say how that conversion even took place. My bubble had prepared me for non-sense answers to all liberal arguments, but the fight over the healthcare law exposed me to ideas like a Public Option, which I was told was bad because it would out-compete private insurance. I think the key here is that I wasn't prepared for a Public Option, or the idea of the ACA, since before Obama healthcare reform didn't seem possible at all. I vaguely remembered Hillarycare and knew how to hate it, I didn't know how or what to hate once that Pandora's Box had been opened. When we got the ACA I knew it wasn't nearly the best we could do, but was still better for me personally, so I had to reevaluate everything. I think that's where I first started to actually think for myself and realize how absolutely irredeemable the conservative movement is. It helped, I guess, that Obama was presidential as all hell throughout all this poo poo. Now I wish he would have fought harder, spat more venom and actually been the socialist I was told he was, but ultimately I think he played a part in bringing me over. He always left a place for me in his America, even when I was a rambling lunatic praising people paid to be rambling lunatics. That's not a privilege Trump will afford to anyone, even the sane and rational, especially the sane and rational. I'm not a typical case. There have been other converts who found their way out of the wilderness, some by Sanders forcing people to confront socialism with a face, others by education or interaction with a more diverse crowd. It might not be enough to swing an election any time soon, but I still plan to push our local Democratic Party to be more involved in the community outside of election time. A progressive group organizing gun clubs or shooting matches with an emphasis on conservation might be a good inroad, as hunters are often surprisingly environmentally conscious. They might not believe in climate change, and will fight with prepared responses if challenged directly, but they could be nudged to connect the dots if the focus is placed on related issues like drought, invasive species migrating out of their normal habitats etc. The key to success is showing up, and for a lot of rural towns, there's just no other game in town but conservative groups. Not until we do something about it anyway.
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