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CottonWolf posted:Or the old favourite, "heart attack". Little did anyone know, one of Kinzo's hobbies include climbing inside boilers and curling into a ball and making one of the servants help him out. Unfortunately they were all dead, and when the boiler turned on by its auto-timer his heart couldn't take it. 
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Dec 18, 2016 20:20
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Fabulousvillain posted:Little did anyone know, one of Kinzo's hobbies include climbing inside boilers and curling into a ball and making one of the servants help him out. Unfortunately they were all dead, and when the boiler turned on by its auto-timer his heart couldn't take it. It was a truly tragic outcome. Wholly unforeseeable E: Whatever untoward happened, it had to be one of the servants, not Kinzo (unless we're going with the fake Kinzo theory). There's no way to set up the chain without someone with a master key being the killer. If it were Kinzo, he couldn't have locked the boiler room door, because he didn't have a master key and the key to the boiler room had to be already locked in another of the rooms. If we then have to rule out an accident, suicide and homicide, we're very stuck at explaining the obvious wounds on the servants. Unless we want to make a really convoluted argument that in one of the cases that wound wasn't actually what killed them. If we assume the wounds were done post-mortem, I'm not sure that it even helps, because then you have to explain post-mortem mutilation of the non-homicide case. Right, breaking it down: If you assume Kinzo is the strange case, you have to explain the locked rooms. If you assume the servants are the weird case you have to explain how one of them got those wounds through a method that wasn't suicide/accident or homicide. I'm stumped. Unless it's a weird definitional issue around the red text or something. Like it's not suicide if you're already dying from something else, it becomes euthanasia or something. But that would feel mightly cheap. E2: Phone posting is slow. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Dec 18, 2016 |
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Dec 18, 2016 21:29
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If someone died of natural causes, that would work, but that could only possibly apply to Kinzo unless further trickery is happening. (See below, though.) The burning could happen post-mortem via an automatic timer, as you say, if he were in there. Which he might well be, if he was hiding from a murderer. It's also possible for one or more of the victims to have been killed by some nonhuman agency. ...witches? No, don't be absurd. But if someone is killed by a horse, nobody calls it a murder. Murder requires understanding that we don't impute to animals. It's not exactly an accident, either, though, if the animal intended to do it. Here's an alternative scenario: put a snake into any of those rooms. It bites someone and poisons them. It's not a suicide. It's not an accident. It isn't a trap, or at least not by the definition Beatrice advanced. After all, an animal acts of its own will and has its own plans; it might be arguable that the human planner is required there, but you could also say that the snake wasn't introduced by anyone apart from the person who was in the room and that they presumably were not intending to be killed by it. (They could have used it to commit some of the other murders, for instance.) Now, of course, the question becomes, if they were killed by a snake, what's with the wounds the family discovered them with? Well, all that requires is for one of those wounds to be in a place you couldn't see it from the door. Nanjo is doing the examinations and we're suspicious of him already. If he has some object concealed on him that could make a wound like that, he could have carved one surreptitiously during the post-mortem. If the person who died in this way were one of the conspirators, it might make sense to do this to make his death look like the others; the identity of that person and their different method of death might have offered a clue to the nature of the conspiracy. The snake, of course, could still be in the room, concealed; we know there are no hidden people in the room, but a snake is not a person.
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Dec 18, 2016 21:47
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Hah. That's a good shout. It answers the problem I was having in my edit I was making when you were writing that. It seems a bit of a stretch to not define an escaped snake as an accident though, especially as the snake would only be there in the first place because of the plot. But, as you hint at, if you assume Genji or Kumasawa were the murderers and working with Nanjo, it's the natural causes + Nanjo mutilating option seem reasonable, if not likely. They're old enough that an unlucky health complication doesn't seem impossible.
CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Dec 18, 2016 |
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Dec 18, 2016 22:03
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Obviously the culprit is a unicorn, it's not a person - and most can only be seen by the pure, and that sure as hell isn't anyone in the cast.
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Dec 18, 2016 22:12
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:Or she was about to lie and Ronove stopped her so she wouldn't gently caress up the redtext. ProfessorProf posted:
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Dec 18, 2016 22:41
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"This is a game between you and me. In a game, the rules are sacred!! Those who take that lightly are not qualified to play!!"
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Robindaybird posted:Obviously the culprit is a unicorn, it's not a person - and most can only be seen by the pure, and that sure as hell isn't anyone in the cast. This also explains the stake-like wounds the victims have. They were impaled by the unicorns horn. Without Love, the Unicorn cannot be seen. Alternatively, my understanding of your theories can be summed up in the following image: 
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Dec 18, 2016 23:18
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tiistai posted:You'll just go mad if you start doubting even the basic premises. But what she started to say wasn't in red. 
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Dec 18, 2016 23:19
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EagerSleeper posted:Thank you for the TIPS post! I also remember one where it was focused on Gohda in the last LP that made me like him even more. I am not intending to start a bickering match, but I think both of these statements could also be easily seen as untrue! It's all a matter of perspective, isn't it?
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Dec 18, 2016 23:25
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ProfessorProf posted:
Putting aside the central mystery of the moment, this moment is... oddly cute, considering the circumstances, and I never thought I'd say that again after the bit on the beach. Horrible trollbeast that Beato is, there's... things about her behavior and actions that paint a very sad light upon her life before this (I've said that before), and among these is just how confused she seems that Battler isn't kicking her when she's down. A cycle of abuse will never end unless somebody turns the other cheek, so I'm glad that Battler wasn't a sore winner here. (The image of Ronove just putting her hand over Beato's mouth and hauling her off is also  )
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Dec 19, 2016 00:45
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"Well, now that you've resigned, that just means we're even, since my theory and yours can't deny each other. You should treat it more like a tie than a loss."
"...I don't need your disgusting sympathy. I'm telling you that I lost this round. When you find a dog drenched with rain, do you have a sudden urge to whack it with a stick or something?"
"Nope. I'm not you."
"..."
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resurgam40 posted:Putting aside the central mystery of the moment, this moment is... oddly cute, considering the circumstances, and I never thought I'd say that again after the bit on the beach. Horrible trollbeast that Beato is, there's... things about her behavior and actions that paint a very sad light upon her life before this (I've said that before), and among these is just how confused she seems that Battler isn't kicking her when she's down. A cycle of abuse will never end unless somebody turns the other cheek, so I'm glad that Battler wasn't a sore winner here. (The image of Ronove just putting her hand over Beato's mouth and hauling her off is also 
oath2order fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 01:42
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Oh my God, that is amazing. I almost wish witches were real so that could have happened.
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Dec 19, 2016 02:32
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 October 5th, 1986, 9:00 AM  Maria got bored and started complaining that she wanted to watch TV. There was no TV in the lobby, so she decided to return to the cousins' room on the second floor. The adults probably wanted to make sure Maria wasn't left on her own... They told all the children to go to the second floor cousins' room. George, who was grief-stricken by the loss of his fiancée, led the cousins up to the second floor without any resistance. At first, Nanjo had been reading a book in the lobby, but when he noticed the relatives looking like they wanted to discuss something sinister, he said 'It seems I am in the way...' and returned to his room on the second floor.  BGM: Minute Darkness  "It's only natural. We didn't get any sleep at all last night." "...We will probably end up being barricaded here for a full 24 hours. It may be wiser to take naps in turn instead of over-stressing ourselves." "True. My husband and I will remain here, so I ask that anyone having trouble staying awake take it easy and rest." "Our opponent might be expecting that, right? Even if they couldn't defeat this many people, if that number shrinks enough, they may plan to use that moment to strike." "There are seven of us here, so we could take three-hour shifts in pairs. Tomorrow morning's a long way off. We still have some energy now, but tonight's going to be tough." "Sure will. Anyone sleepy? Don't overdo it, and get some rest."Hideyoshi looked around at everyone to see who wanted to sleep first, but no one volunteered. Everyone was just as tired, but no one was bold enough to go to sleep right away. Their fear of the unknown culprit was just as strong as their sleepiness. "...Nobody? Well, don't overdo it, everyone." "If we get tired, we'll deal with it then. I'll admit I'm sleepy, but I'm not in the mood now."As Eva spoke sharply, she reread the second letter from Beatrice, which had been found in the boiler room.  And she'd even provoked them by saying she'd give up her assets and the Headship if they could solve it... Eva took out a notebook and opened it to a page with the epitaph copied onto it. "...Is this that epitaph?" "Yes. I hate doing what the culprit says, but we do have time to waste. I think it's the perfect way to stave off boredom." "...Not a bad way to kill time. Why don't we challenge it together as siblings?" "...Can I borrow that? I'll rewrite it just a little larger. Natsuhi-san, do you have a slightly larger piece of paper?" "There should be paper in the servant room. I will bring some."Natsuhi immediately brought a blank B4 sheet of paper from the servant room. Kyrie borrowed Eva's notebook, wrote out the epitaph on the paper, and laid it out on the table. Then, everyone quickly peered down at it. They automatically formed a crowd.  "I've heard about it, but, really, this is a tough riddle. I don't have a clue what it's talkin' about." "At one point, I also did my best to solve it, but I was just as clueless." "If you did know, you wouldn't have come all the way out here with a plan to make money. After all, it's 10 tons of gold we're talking about." "...This is the first time I've read through it seriously, but... roughly speaking, couldn't it be split into three parts?" "...I've been thinking this since last night, but you really are a good thinker, Kyrie-san. Perhaps you'll be able to easily solve this riddle that we couldn't." "Yeah. Kyrie's sharp. She might find a more interesting take on it if she comes in without any confusing biases." "...That's right. Kyrie-san, would you mind giving us you honest opinion after reading the epitaph?" "I doubt you'll find it useful. You all give me too much credit." "That's fine, just say whatever comes into your head. Let's hear your thoughts. The hints you give always help me out when I'm worried." "Oh, so I have been helpful? It's nice to finally hear about this now." "Come ooon, don't I always thank you?" "You two sure are close. I'm jealous." "And the rest of us would also love to hear these hints of yours. We're just killing time anyway, so relax, okay?" ...But they had all the time in the world. Realizing that this was just a way to waste time, she decided to accept the role she'd been given... "...I'm sure I'll say something off the mark, but... well, I'll put forward my ideas." "Indeed. What did you mean in the beginning, about how it could be divided into three parts, roughly speaking?" BGM: Psy-Chorus "First, there are the five lines up until 'There sleeps the key to the gold'. Up until this point is the first part, which directs you to the location of the key. And then there's the part formed by the 11 lines up until the tenth twilight, which refer to the location of the Golden Land itself. And the remaining six lines make up the part after the Golden Land has been reached."  "I see. It can be divided into three parts about the key, the Golden Land, and the Golden Land's treasure." "Even we have been able to grasp that much. The three sections that refer to the key, the door, and the treasure." "...Nii-san, don't butt in any more than you have to! Let Kyrie-san speak her ideas freely." "Kyrie, please continue. We see it the same way you do so far. So then?" "Since Father went to all the trouble of telling us that it's beloved, we can imagine that it's a hometown he had strong feelings for. Did Father come from Odawara?" "...Odawara is definitely where he was born, but I don't think that's the hometown he loved. I imagine all of us siblings have the same place in mind." "...Right. This probably isn't Odawara. From what I've heard, he had a very fun time as a youth." "Hahhaha. Being made the Ushiromiya Family Head was probably Dad's greatest bit of misfortune in life." "...Probably. Father didn't actually want to become the Head." "So where is this place? Is there a river there where sweetfish swim?" "...Maybe there was at the time. There's been a lot of development there since then, and the sweetfish might have disappeared. It would be extremely difficult to investigate whether sweetfish were there during Grandfather's boyhood years." "And there probably isn't just a single river. I believe we all gave this a thorough investigation geographically. You even went to the actual place to investigate directly, right, Eva?" "That was only as a vacation. But, the townscape had changed completely since Father's time. After all, it was caught up in that war, wasn't it? By now, even precisely locating the place Father lived is impossible. I imagine that if Father went there himself now, even he wouldn't be able to pick out the place he'd lived anymore." "Well, after all, those guys have also gone through a remarkable recovery..." "...Does the part about a sweetfish river bring any place name clearly to mind?" "Well, yeah. After all, they're sweetfish, right? People say they live in rivers with clean water, so there are countless rivers that might work. Any stream Dad innocently went sweetfish-fishing in was probably buried by the development later. It'd be different if we had a map from before the war or a person who knew a lot about how the area was before the war, but..." "What do you mean...?" "...Behold the sweetfish river running through my beloved hometown. You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream in search of the key. After these two lines, there's a single blank line." "What do you mean, something is being presented...?" "...I don't know. At any rate, what we can get from these two lines alone isn't something vague, like the question of which river it might be, but the clear presentation of the keyword 'river'. It may be that this isn't a 'river' with water flowing down it. The 'sweetfish river' might be some kind of metaphor. What sort of impressions does the word 'sweetfish' give?" "...Sweetfish are like salmon. They're freshwater fish, but they go out into the ocean right after they're born. When they get big, they go back to the river to live there, and then they spawn there and end their lives there. Well, they leave their home at one point, but when they get big, they come back and lay eggs. Might be able to link that to the idea of clan prosperity." "Oh? They're freshwater fish, but they can live in the ocean? I didn't know that. I figured river fish wouldn't be able to live in the sea."  "What's that, Natsuhi-san?! You've never eaten salt-grilled sweetfish?! They're delicious! You should try it sometime soon!" "It is a food for commoners. Hardly appropriate for your mouth." "...This is just my wild idea, but the impression I get from a sweetfish river makes me suspect a family tree. The sweetfish go out into the ocean for a time, but they return to the river where they were born to spawn, right? It reminds me of myself." "You're right. By this point, I can confess that I've sometimes suspected that it refers to you and Maria-chan."  "Isn't that right?! But as you all know, Father doesn't like Maria, and he almost never speaks with her. And, in the past, Father told me to give Maria a completely different name. I just decided to go with Maria on my own. Father was very mad about that. Given that, it's very hard to imagine that he would reference Maria's name in his precious epitaph about who would succeed his wealth and inheritance." "Have you ever let Maria-chan read the epitaph?" "Uh, yes, of course. But it looked as though she didn't have a clue. She didn't have a clue, and she kept going on about that same occult stuff, about how it was a resurrection ceremony for the witch." "...A connection between Father and Maria. Certainly, they do share that occult hobby, but they never interacted. I can't imagine it that refers to Maria either." "...I believe this word 'beloved' here at the beginning... must refer to a place full of very important memories to Father." "...Hmmmmmm. Well, that's fine. It would be hard to pinpoint since we don't have even a trace of a map from that time, but at any rate, there were probably several rivers with sweetfish swimming in them near Dad's hometown during his youth." "That's if we're looking for a river with water flowing down it, right? And then? Go on, Kyrie-san." "...I don't really understand the three lines starting with 'If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village'. It's probably linked to the two lines about the sweetfish river. I imagine it's something we'd understand automatically if we knew what the sweetfish river really was. Until we figure that out, it's probably useless to try and solve those three lines any further." "So we're stuck unless we know what the 'sweetfish river' really is... And there's no guarantee it even means a literal river. Seriously. What's up with the sweetfish? Did Dad like to eat them? Or does it have some special meaning? Is it pointless to read too deeply into it?" "...If you don't have both a micro and a macro perspective, your field of vision grows narrow. It might be better to be flexible and avoid thinking too deeply, focusing on an abstract image of a river where fish swim, or something that can flow... up or down." "Then, the answer behind the 'sweetfish river' passes through the next three lines and makes its way to the 'key to the Golden Land'..." "If you think about it this way, I wonder if it was a mistake to split it into three parts. There's actually four parts. 'Go down the sweetfish river', 'find the key to the Golden Land', 'journey to the Golden Land', and 'the treasure of the Golden Land'." "Hmmm... Truly intriguing. Well, you've gone this far. Would you mind continuing and telling us your opinion on the most central portion of the epitaph, up to the point when we reach the Golden Land on the tenth twilight?" "...That's the most symbolic... and also the most disturbing part." "Since the word 'sacrifices' keeps coming up, I can't help but think it has something to do with Father's occult ceremonies... How do you see it, Kyrie-san?"Kyrie recrossed her arms several times, peering into the paper with the epitaph copied onto it as though she was looking through it...  "...Just like how the 'sweetfish river' isn't necessarily a river with water flowing down it, it's also doubtful that this 'key' is actually something shaped like a key." "Right. It might also be a code or a keyword. After all, this key isn't something to be stuck into a keyhole. It's something that selects six people to be sacrifices for the first twilight. In that sense, we can say for sure that this key isn't being used to open the door to the Golden Land." "...But what a disturbing key it is. A key that can choose six human sacrifices..." "How would a key select anything? Do ya spin it like a roulette...?" "This key indicates a certain group of six people. No, we should say it indicates a certain group of six things... if this doesn't mean a literal command to offer sacrifices. For example, it could be an anagram." "An anagram? Do you mean playing with letters...?" "Yes. I've been thinking about it ever since Rosa started talking about the family tree, and about how village was a part of Maria-chan's name." "...It seems that ever since the words 'beloved hometown' came up, Rudolf-san, for example, has assumed that this epitaph points to some coordinates or some other geographical feature, but that might not be the case. This could be some kind of puzzle, or maybe playing with letters." "...Forgive me, what do you mean by playing with letters?" "...Merry?? Take out the e's and r's, huh? ???" "Stop it. It is an undignified game, inappropriate for you."Only Natsuhi didn't get it and had a blank look on her face. It seemed she'd only guessed that the answer had to be something undignified, going by Rudolf and Eva's sniggers. "Ah, Natsuhi nee-san, it's something like this. This is just something from Maria's book of riddles, okay? There's this thing called a Tanuki Notebook. It's a notebook written like a code, with a lot of 'ta's mixed in, and if you 'remove' all of the 'ta's, then the true paragraph pops up. It's a game like that." "Ah, oh, I see...??" "...So maybe 'kill' actually means 'remove' in that sense, right...?" "Yes. I also thought that. It's possible that the key to the Golden Land is a word with six characters." "In other words, the 'ta' from the Tanuki Notebook... is actually six characters here...? Hmmm, this is getting complicated..." "Playing with letters, is it...? Hmmm. In Japan, it really feels like a child's game, but it's apparently a stylish form of humor among intellectuals in the English world. It is easy to imagine that Father was interested in it." "'Sweetfish river', 'go down it', 'then find the key'... all of that is extremely sequential. And as a result, we can guess that we gain a six-character key, but in that case, we now don't know 'what' we kill the six characters from." "That's right. Where do we pull the six characters from? It doesn't tell us." "...On the second twilight, there are 'those who remain'. Which means that, at the very least, that 'something' has a limited number of characters. You could read it like it's telling you to continue with the remaining characters after the first six characters are removed. And yet, we don't know what this 'something' is, even though it should've been shown to us at the beginning. Are we wrong even in our assumption that this is playing with letters...?" "...Hmmmmm..."Everyone crossed their arms and fell silent. It felt like they were about to reach a novel understanding they hadn't managed before, but they stumbled just one step short. Then, Hideyoshi's stomach rumbled heartily. That silence was broken by laughter.  "Natsuhi, isn't there anything to eat here?" "There should at least be enough set aside for breakfast. I will prepare it." "I'm also starving. And I'll bet those brats above us are the same. Still, I doubt there's enough for the 18 people here, much less a full three meals, right?" "That's right. It'll be a long journey 'til tomorrow. Maybe we'd better take a trip back to the mansion and fish around for some canned food or somethin' in the kitchen." "There's nothing more than crackers and snacks here, but if that will be sufficient, I can get them ready for you all. But with this many people, there might not be any left for lunch..." "That will do for now. Would you mind getting those ready?"It looked like the men had been taken over with an appetite that stopped all thought. The atmosphere grew more peaceful, and the epitaph investigation team split up for the time being. But Eva kept staring at the paper the epitaph was written on like she was going to burn a hole through it...  "...Thank you. I'll just keep doing this on my own. Would you mind leaving me alone?"Eva spoke coldly. Kyrie didn't bother her any more, and instead went to help Natsuhi prepare breakfast. "Nee-san, shouldn't we also help prepare breakfast?" "Then you go help. I'm busy solving this!" "S-Sorry... Th-Then I'll help..." "...Good grief. How can you be like that?" "...Huh?" "The Ushiromiya Family Headship will be given to the person who solves this epitaph. It looks like you've given up from the beginning, as if it has nothing to do with you, but if you can solve it, there's a chance even you'll be able to receive the Headship."  "...Um... umm, I..."Rosa hung her head, unsure as to how she should answer. Too late, she regretted carelessly speaking to her sister when she was in a bad mood. "If you've noticed anything, say so. Even though Kyrie-san and I were thinking hard, you just kept nodding your head, didn't you? Come on. Isn't there anything you've noticed? Come on!" "...Uh, umm... Don't... you think this part's strange?" "...Strange? What is?" "What's your point? Do you get some keywords by splitting up the characters in 'Golden Land'?" "Um, umm, that's not it. Look, isn't just the tenth twilight strange?" "...Huh? ...Ah." "...Oh, uh... but I'm probably splitting hairs over nothing, if you think about it. This is Father we're talking about, after all. He probably just said it that way to make it sound more dramatic." "..."For those interested in the epitaph, but not interested in Japanese wordplay: The Steam version of Umineko uses a different translation of the Epitaph, and a this conversation between Eva and Rosa is different as well. You may want to check it out. Of course, nothing will come of it. Uncovering the location of the hidden gold is an optional challenge, even more difficult than discovering the truth of Rokkenjima. It's far beyond the abilities of any mere human.
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Dec 19, 2016 14:29
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So am I right in assuming that figuring out the key is only possible if reading in Japanese?
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Dec 19, 2016 16:44
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Tender Child Loins posted:So am I right in assuming that figuring out the key is only possible if reading in Japanese? No. e: Well, sort of. Enough clues will be provided to solve it without knowing Japanese, in theory. Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 16:45
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Tender Child Loins posted:So am I right in assuming that figuring out the key is only possible if reading in Japanese? The epitaph is a riddle intended to challenge an entire fandom, requiring a number of people to work together and combine diffrent skills. It was, in fact, solved by the fandom, though with great difficulty. It is very hard, but then again, you haven't surrendered to the witch, have you? Why surrender to Kinzo? Edit: vvv I am pretty sure this post was Prof doing exactly that. oath2order fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 17:04
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ProfessorProf posted:No. Will we be given a helpful indicator, either by the game or by you, when all the pieces are in place to reasonably guess? Or is that spoiling too much?
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Dec 19, 2016 17:06
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Mister Olympus posted:Will we be given a helpful indicator, either by the game or by you, when all the pieces are in place to reasonably guess? Or is that spoiling too much? At present, I don't think it's possible to figure out what the key is, but it should in theory be possible to figure out where the door is.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:26
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To be clear, if anyone figures it out in this thread without intervention then anime is real.
Redmark fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 17:31
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ProfessorProf posted:At present, I don't think it's possible to figure out what the key is, but it should in theory be possible to figure out where the door is. I believe it is theoretically possible to work out what the key is with the information provided. Emphasis on 'theoretically.' But yes, the door is more plausible.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:35
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This is the part where I have little idea, I know the truth of the deaths but not this riddle. But I can make a small guess. The gold is hidden in the secret manor on the island, through how to find it without removing the forest and breaking down walls is beyond me.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:48
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ProfessorProf posted:For those interested in the epitaph, but not interested in Japanese wordplay: The Steam version of Umineko uses a different translation of the Epitaph, and a this conversation between Eva and Rosa is different as well. You may want to check it out. Hm, so if the Steam translation was comfortable with changing things around, the riddle is probably not as dependent on Japanese straucture which is a relief. But to continue the lines of thought presented here, I think Kyrie is on the right track by thinking that the "sweetfish river" is probably not literal, if only because there seem to be no physical rivers on the island... but we're going that far, I don't think the final destination is literal either, such as the other mansion (nor do I think the gold is literal either, if the allusions to Heaven I made earlier were on the mark). The thing about the door might relate to the way Kinzo gets around, though... But if the river is Abstract, what does it mean to travel it, or to come to a village, and how would that lead to a key? The key, and the way it chooses people, have felt really arbitrary to me so far, as if indeed the victims are chosen via  , so I get Hideyoshi thinking it might be a roulette... And thinking of the victims, not a lot of similarity or common theme there; here are the first twilight victims so far:1st Ep Rudolph Kyrie, Krauss, Rosa, Gohda, Shannon. 4 family and 2 servants, faces were gouged, locked in the shed. 2nd Krauss, Natsuhi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Eva, Hideyoshi. All family, Set up in the chapel, stomachs pulled out 3rd Genji, Gohda, Kuwabara, Kanon, Shannon, Kinzo. 5 servants, 1 family, one burned to death, the others stabbed (?) What are the commonalities, here? some of their names begin with the same letter, but they can't all be paired that way; different genders each time, different ages each time... they were all portrayed as having been out and about, but then, so have most of the others (the servants, for example are all moving about). So is the "key" completely random? Or is this the wrong tack to take, and I have no way of knowing what the key is unless I figure out what the river is first? A river travels down, a family tree travels down and branches out, as does a nervous or circulation system... As does the gouging, I notice: you start with the head, go to the chest, go to the stomach, go to the knee, go to the leg (that's interesting, the lower leg?), and then the revival. Why that order, traveling down? In that instance, gouging probably mean what Beatrice has been presenting it either... do you press something, and this is a code? Do you dig in certain spots? (Sorry if my posts seem rambling and abrupt, it's how I've been working through my thoughts)
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Dec 19, 2016 19:03
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resurgam40 posted:(nor do I think the gold is literal either, if the allusions to Heaven I made earlier were on the mark). Remember that there were three ingots of gold present at the First Twilight in EP2.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:26
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ProfessorProf posted:Remember that there were three ingots of gold present at the First Twilight in EP2. That doesn't necessarily mean anything; Beatrice could have provided it herself, or if it was valid then it could be all that remains of a once-great fortune. All the three bars prove is that three bars of gold exists- and that Beatrice wants us to think there are more. It would be pretty crushingly ironic to go through all that and discover that nothing was left of the fortune that prompted so much intrigue in the first place.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:36
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Kinzo is the sort of person to think that 'Alucard = Dracula backwards' is a clever twist, apparently.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:46
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EagerSleeper posted:Kinzo is the sort of person to think that 'Alucard = Dracula backwards' is a clever twist, apparently. The truth is, there is no such thing as witches. Vampires, on the other hand...
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Dec 19, 2016 19:58
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oath2order posted:The truth is, there is no such thing as witches. Vampires, on the other hand... That certainly explains how he dresses.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:08
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oath2order posted:The truth is, there is no such thing as witches. Vampires, on the other hand... I'm with KataraniSword. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:54
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Don't surrender to the witch, but you honestly might as well surrender to Kinzo because you people aren't going to do this.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:06
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I don' think this solvable right now cause the siblings danced around the name of Kinzo beloved hometown. Though I doubt I could solve it anyway.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:09
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Rodyle posted:Don't surrender to the witch, but you honestly might as well surrender to Kinzo because you people aren't going to do this. No! We will continue to nobly speculate wildly! Here's my speculation for the day. Why are we assuming that this is about Kinzo at all? It's under Beatrice's portrait. What if we should be looking for her "beloved hometown"? E: Though that only works if you believe that the 3 sections are completely unconnected, which seems unlikely. resurgam40 posted:Hm, so if the Steam translation was comfortable with changing things around, the riddle is probably not as dependent on Japanese straucture which is a relief. But to continue the lines of thought presented here, I think Kyrie is on the right track by thinking that the "sweetfish river" is probably not literal, if only because there seem to be no physical rivers on the island... but we're going that far, I don't think the final destination is literal either, such as the other mansion (nor do I think the gold is literal either, if the allusions to Heaven I made earlier were on the mark). The thing about the door might relate to the way Kinzo gets around, though... Yeah, if we take it as abstract it could mean anything. If the siblings were right about it referring to the family tree (though that feels like a red herring), and the tree pointing to Maria, then there are 3 kanji in her name, and with one already being the village, does anyone know enough Japanese to know if there are any relevant words you can make with the two kanji that are left? They could be the two that speak. resurgam40 posted:As does the gouging, I notice: you start with the head, go to the chest, go to the stomach, go to the knee, go to the leg (that's interesting, the lower leg?), and then the revival. Why that order, traveling down? In that instance, gouging probably mean what Beatrice has been presenting it either... do you press something, and this is a code? Do you dig in certain spots? The head has always made me think of Kinzo, considering he's the family head, but that seems both too literal, and if we're assuming murder isn't necessarily required, I have no idea what it would mean. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 21:18
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I'll tell you guys now, if you guys can seriously solve this, (and I'm convinced no one is cheating) I'll buy you all avatars or a gangtag or something.
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Dec 19, 2016 22:00
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CottonWolf posted:The head has always made me think of Kinzo, considering he's the family head, but that seems both too literal, and if we're assuming murder isn't necessarily required, I have no idea what it would mean. Especially considering Kinzo wasn't even killed during the second game. Despite all the warnings, it feels a little more solvable from this perspective, especially because "you could get the door but not the key"--which means the physical location of the gold, as people were guessing, is SOMEWHERE we've either seen or heard about in the story so far; most likely on Rokkenjima unless Kinzo has a collaborator and it's stashed with his secret favorite child. But even then, it should still be on the island--how would it be fair if they couldn't feasibly find it during the game? e: Though if the sacrifices have to follow the epitaph, that's an interesting way of looking at it, isn't it? That the first death is the "head" from which the "river" of blood flows, and the people that were killed were selected for reasons known to that game's killer. Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 22:15
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oath2order posted:I'll tell you guys now, if you guys can seriously solve this, (and I'm convinced no one is cheating) I'll buy you all avatars or a gangtag or something.
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Dec 19, 2016 23:53
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Whatever these things are, they all have to be on the island, or else metaphorical objects, or else only need to be examined remotely; if the people in the house are meant to solve the riddle before the morning comes, they have to have access to everything they need to do it. (So, for instance, if the town is a literal place, you might be able to discover the key by examining it on a map.) It's possible that the key is literally a key, but it could also be a code phrase, as has been suggested. The word "key" is also used to refer to cryptographic keys, symbol-bearing buttons on a keyboard or typewriter, and to musical keys, any of which could work in this case depending on how the rest of the riddle works. I'm guessing it's something less directly related to the word, though, especially since those probably aren't all the same word in Japanese. Like, some kind of information that makes it possible to access the Golden Whatnot later on. Edit: 1. Maybe there's a reason so many of the kids have ridiculous names? Does that play into it, if it's a family tree thing? 2. What does the extra character in the last repetition of the Golden Land mean? If it really translates to "no", I usually see that meaning "belonging to X", but I'm just working from random anime tidbits here. Does anyone know if there's more to it? Edit 2: Found an article on it: http://blogs.transparent.com/japanese/japanese-grammar-the-no-%E3%81%AE-particle/ Also potentially helpful: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%81%AE idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 01:09
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So if the sacrifices and "kill"s are about removing letters/characters, the "key" has at least 11 letters/characters. 13 if tearing apart "the two who are close" counts as removing two more... so that's a start. I'm just jotting down words and ideas that jump out at me. I have a decent grasp of Japanese, so I'm picking apart names. Ku-wa-do-ri-a-n = baby Beatrice's mansion... literally the beloved's home. 6 syllables. The name contains a number: 9. Ro-kke-n-ji-ma = obviously the island they're on. 5 syllables. Has the character for 6 in it. A-zu-ki-ji-ma = the old name for Rokkenjima. 5 syllables. Means "sweet red bean island." Maybe there's a tie-in with sweetfish? Probably not, right? I think there's definitely something to the sense of liminality implied by the sweetfish and migration. It makes me think of transition, growth, maturation. I like the family tree thing; maybe this has to do with heredity in some way? The point at which the river meets the ocean seems important here, since the seeker is supposed to travel downstream to the shore to find the key. So if the key is a keyword, could it be the name of a place at that intersection? Does the harbor on Rokkenjima have a name or something like that? Maybe there's an inscription there or something? And resurgam40, the other thing the first twilight's sacrifices have in common is that those groups never include the cousins. I thought that was kind of weird, especially if the roulette is supposed to be random. Why don't they ever get chosen? edit: idonotlikepeas, "no" can also be a possessive particle, or it can turn a noun into a modifier in some cases. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 01:24
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Make sure you're not all forgetting to check both translations of the epitaph.
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Dec 20, 2016 01:29
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As oath2order's given us that hint, I thought I'd transcribe both and point out the differences in each line, as well as spitballing my thoughts as I write it, as I tend to do. Behold the sweetfish river, running through my beloved home of old. Behold the sweetfish river running through my beloved hometown. Only minor changes, but we should be looking for a figurative town rather than a home, given the second translation. You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream in search of the key. You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream in search of the key. Identical. As you travel down it, you will see a village. As you travel down it, you will see a village. Identical. Wording possibly implies the village isn't at the bottom? In that village, look for the shore the two speak of. In that village, look for the shore the two will tell you of. Pretty much the same. Only real change is that they're not speaking generally, they're specifically talking to us. There the key to the Golden Land sleeps. There sleeps the key to the Golden Land. Sleeps is a weird word to use here, it could be a purely dramatic flourish, or it could be important. You who laid hand upon the key must journey as follows to the Golden Land. The one who obtains the key must then travel to the Golden Land in accordance with these rules. Pretty big differences here. "laid hand upon" implies the key is a physical object, but again that could be a flourish, the first translation as a whole seems to have a propensity to that. On the first twilight, sacrifice the six chosen by the key. On the first twilight, offer the six chosen by the key as sacrifices. Just switching words around. On the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close. On the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close. On the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my noble name. On the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my noble name. Couple of thoughts here. Who's name are we praising? Kinzo's? That seems a bit odd. I really think we need to be considering who the me in this actually refers to. I hypothesised Beatrice earlier, but I'm not convinced about that. It doesn't feel like Kinzo either though. He doesn't strike me as the "praise my noble name" type. Also, was there any praising on the second run through? I don't remember it. On the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill. On the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill. On the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill. On the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill. On the sixth twilight, gouge the stomach and kill. On the sixth twilight, gouge the stomach and kill. On the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill. On the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill. On the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill. On the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill. On the ninth twilight, the witch revives, and none shall be left alive On the ninth twilight, the witch shall revive, and none shall be left alive. Marginally different tenses. Probably not important. On the tenth twilight, the journey ends, and you shall reach the Home of the Gold. On the tenth twilight, at journey's end, you shall attain to the power of the Golden Land's treasures, once and for the last time. Again, big differences. And what Rosa and Eva's discussions feature on in both versions, so this must be important. As has been said, の is often a possessive, so is "the Gold" a person, and if so, who are they and where do they live? If not, what is the gold? Is it literally just the missing gold? In the other version they point out the "once and for the last time" section. I don't really have much here, what is received only once and for the last time? If it's a temporal recursion thing, it could just mean that the Rokkenjima event will stop happening over and over, which would make sense with what Beatrice has said about her losing in that situation, but that doesn't feel like it helps the riddle in any way, so it's probably not that. The witch shall praise the wise and bestow four treasures. The witch shall praise the wise and bestow four treasures. One shall be all of the Golden Land's gold. One shall be all the gold from the Golden Land. Possession vs presence. Probably again unimportant translation decisions. One resurrects all the dead people's souls. One shall be the resurrection of all the dead souls. Only one specifies the souls are human. Probably irrelevant? One even revives all the love they possessed. One shall be the resurrection of the love that was lost. The first of these two is weird. It might just be that the translation was wonky, but no-one would ever write that normally, which makes me think there's something hidden in there. And one for the witch to eternally rest. One shall be to put the witch to sleep for all time. Basically the same. Rest in peace, my beloved witch, Beatrice. Sleep peacefully, my beloved witch, Beatrice. Death vs. sleeping? Probably unimportant. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 02:22
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CottonWolf posted:On the tenth twilight, the journey ends, and you shall reach the Home of the Gold. Beatrice is the golden witch, so it's possible that the Gold refers to her?
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Dec 20, 2016 03:10
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CottonWolf posted:In that village, look for the shore the two speak of. "the two" is used in both of these passages as well, but... who is speaking/telling of the shore, in the first?
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Dec 20, 2016 03:25
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