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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Also, my AA12 is up to 56 Accuracy with the -accuracy mod, is that going to tighten my shotgroup too tightly? It doesnt seem to bad but I can tell that it reduced the spread a bit, I think. Personally I find 48-56 accuracy on my Loco to be the sweet spot, but I think it's a matter of taste.
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Dec 19, 2016 16:40
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22 Eargesplitten posted:Personally I find 48-56 accuracy on my Loco to be the sweet spot, but I think it's a matter of taste. I really enjoyed the Slugs - you can hit multiple cops if they are all lined up because of pass-through, it is accurate at range for counter sniping, and on OVK I could kill a dozer in 5 or 6 well placed shots to the face at distance, and with 100 Stability that is fairly easy. If I was any good at gif making I would make a gif of me killing 5 cops at once after they hop over the walls in Birth of Sky, because of pass-through headshots when they are all in a line 
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Dec 19, 2016 16:45
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CRAZY GARBAGE
Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 16:48
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Wrong thread buddy. Wrt shotgun accuracy, it's personal preference. They've tinkered with weapons spread a few times in the past couple of months. Back in like July or so I would keep shotguns in the 50s; now I stick to 40 accuracy which gives decent spread even while crouching.
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Dec 19, 2016 16:53
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UnknownMercenary posted:Wrong thread buddy. Yeah I figure I can keep it lower and run without one of the Accuracy boosting skills IF basic Far Away is a worthwhile replacement - I think it was Anders that told me that aced Combat Medic is absolutely worthless because the 30% more health provided is (base amount after being revived * 1.3), so basically nothing. I thought it was 30% additional percentages of their total health amount, thus (base percent of health bar after being revived + 30%). Based on how the Long Guide reads, having 84 Accuracy and the 40% bonus for basic Far Away would make another more expensive skill unnecessary (and thus bring my AA12's accuracy down), however, the wording of Far Away "Your accuracy bonus while aiming down sights with Shotguns is increased by 40%" I do not know what the 'bonus' it refers to is and I am not sure if it means what it sounds like it means. e.g. the 'bonus' could be +4 accuracy for aiming down the sights, so I would only get a tiny amount of accuracy. AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 17:18
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How is a Goliath against shields? That's been my biggest problem since coming back.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:26
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22 Eargesplitten posted:How is a Goliath against shields? That's been my biggest problem since coming back.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:29
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UnknownMercenary posted:Wrt shotgun accuracy, it's personal preference. They've tinkered with weapons spread a few times in the past couple of months. Back in like July or so I would keep shotguns in the 50s; now I stick to 40 accuracy which gives decent spread even while crouching. 40s is where I find the sweet spot to be - particularly with something like the IZHMA or Steakout where by design you're going to fire off multiple rounds into a crowd. I will say I swapped to the Raven on my LBV Anarchist shotgunner build - it lets you get some good concealment going for a little dodge and is still pretty drat strong in a fight. Just the reload's a pain.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:51
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The reload does suck, but at least you can cancel it by clicking or swapping weapons. I've gotten used to it on my Raven / Loco build. Just reload every time you're not around enemies, 18 rounds goes a long way.
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Dec 19, 2016 18:00
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Aaaaaand he's probated. As I understand it, the bonuses from skills come after the bonuses from weapon mods are applied, so the 40% is whatever your gun comes out to, then * 1.4. I could be wrong; Vox or Cheeto would know better than I.
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Dec 19, 2016 18:16
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UnknownMercenary posted:The fact that they stick infinite assault waves at the end of almost all the new maps makes me wish they had pre-planning. At least being able to pick a good escape takes the sting out of that for Golden Grin and Dockyard. If they take away infinite waves as a thing on these maps and introduce pre-planning for all of them I would enjoy them a lot more. There would actually be a choice between "do I want to make this faster or do I want to make the escape easier" versus "always make the escape easier because they're throwing bullshit at us at the end." Now that you've said it, I realize this is another issue I've had with the weird cookie-cutter heist design they've been doing for a little while now. Infinite assaults also lead to instances of someone going into custody 80% of the way through the heist and then never getting to play again for the rest of it, which is just plain lovely. Intentionally avoiding progress towards an arbitrary trigger point versus permanently losing part of the team is not a choice that should have to be made.
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Dec 19, 2016 18:18
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Kikas posted:With the way things are going and the ridiculous cash creep we have right now in the game, it's impossible to implement this is a way that has any impact on player decisions. Money means nothing and favors don't do the job in my opinion either. Because the exit strategy is so important in most of the heists, there is no reason not to pick the best one (see The Diamond, Shadow Raid, Big Bank to a degree), and you can work around everything else the favors offer you with player skill, in-game skills, perk decks and good ol' haulin' rear end. So it's always gonna be "grab the least annoying exit and pray for the best with the rest" if we get to choose, regardless of how much favors it costs. The problem is that in heists with multiple escapes, there is always one escape that is much superior to the rest (except on Big Bank, where depending on vault location, elevator trick can actually be comparable to bus). In Bomb: Dockyard, the boat is much closer in location as compared to the other two. In Bomb: Train, the helicopter lands a lot closer than either the boat or plane. In Train heist, the van is so much closer than the stupid boat. In GGC the van is obviously much preferable to lugging multiple bags 300m out to the limo. So the escape points were not balanced properly; in fairness, they seem to have tried to balance it using favours, because if you get too many assets (eg dead drops) on these heists, you can run out of favours to purchase the best escape. But dead drops are hardly essential to a well-equipped and balanced crew. If they had set up a better choice between escapes or maybe a better allocation of favour costs (since money, as rightly pointed out, means nothing), pre-planning might actually mean something. But as it is now, they're better off not arbitrarily loving players over with RNG escape points. John Murdoch posted:Now that you've said it, I realize this is another issue I've had with the weird cookie-cutter heist design they've been doing for a little while now. Infinite assaults also lead to instances of someone going into custody 80% of the way through the heist and then never getting to play again for the rest of it, which is just plain lovely. Intentionally avoiding progress towards an arbitrary trigger point versus permanently losing part of the team is not a choice that should have to be made. I agree. Never liked the infinite assault mechanic, which dates back to PD:TH. In fact, PD:TH was even worse because there was an arbitrarily set time limit for you to make it to the escape, which they fortunately removed. If there is a place for infinite assaults, it should only be on infinite heists like White Xmas. Wastrel_ fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 18:25
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UnknownMercenary posted:As I understand it, the bonuses from skills come after the bonuses from weapon mods are applied, so the 40% is whatever your gun comes out to, then * 1.4. I could be wrong; Vox or Cheeto would know better than I. Accuracy bonuses from mods and additive skills are applied before the multiplicative/percentage bonuses. The actual calculation is a bit more elaborate than what you're presenting here but you've got the right idea.
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Dec 19, 2016 18:30
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UnknownMercenary posted:As I understand it, the bonuses from skills come after the bonuses from weapon mods are applied, so the 40% is whatever your gun comes out to, then * 1.4. I could be wrong; Vox or Cheeto would know better than I.
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Dec 19, 2016 18:38
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Wastrel_ posted:They really need to stop making escape location dependent on RNG. It can really gently caress over players without them being able to do anything about it. The classic example is Train heist, where the van escape is much, much easier than the loving boat. Standardize it such that people can always choose their escapes by paying cash and favours in pre-planning, like is possible in GGC and the Bomb heists. I am OK with randomization that significantly changes the scope of difficulty; the only real objection I have is when it makes things impossible for some builds or when it occurs in the context of a timed achievement or escape. I'm similarly OK with both time limits and infinite assaults, I just think they've been misused of late. Time limits shouldn't be too tight, and infinite assaults should occur in settings where the team genuinely has nothing else to do other than escape. A good place for an infinite assault (or even a timer) is when you pick up the server in boiling point. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 18:47
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Discendo Vox posted:I've got a little tidbit for OD Lab Rats; you can jump up the icebags at the base of the caustic soda and throw bags on top of the platform there. Then one person can go cook instead of four trying desperately to move bags! IN.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:48
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Discendo Vox posted:I am OK with randomization that significantly changes the scope of difficulty; the only real objection I have is when it makes things impossible for some builds or when it occurs in the context of a timed achievement or escape. I think the biggest thing I want from Payday is more of an active role in objectives. I kind of don't even think of a lot about objectives in terms of the overall theme of the game anymore. By that I mean I don't feel like I'm drilling a vault door to get the wonderful treasure inside, I'm just waiting for a timer to end so I can pick up the things that end the heist. Objectives are mostly just about waiting for a confirmation to move onto the next part. I noticed this with Vermintide recently. For those who don't know, there's limited bag-hauling in that game, but it's a sack that you have to haul over your shoulder and you can't do any sort of offensive damage while holding it (only a push attack, and very limited stamina for it). This means that you have to figure out who's carrying, who's covering, and measure risk and reward of different ways of getting the bags to the objective. With Payday, I can just hurl bags literally across a city street with ease while being able to shoot and attack just fine. This could be adjusted by heavier bags forcing the holder into an LMG-style situation where they can only (badly) hip-fire or something. It's the same for other objectives, too. One thing I really like the idea of in PD2 is when you have to blowtorch stuff like on Biker heist, Murky Station, Under the Mountain, etc. I'd rather have to spend a minute torching open points on a door while teammates cover or help me by torching other points than to just slap a timer on when the door will open. Imagine if there were more doors that could only be picked or torched so that it's a good idea to keep enemies away from the person actively trying to open it. I'd also probably have more fun on something like Bomb: Dockyard if there was maybe one or two blowtorches/crowbars/whatever you could pick up that were the only way to open the containers at the end, so a handful of people are in charge of actively opening containers while others tend to defense. It'd certainly be more engaging than slapping down 20 drills like we do now. I realize the tech or netcode isn't there for a lot of things so this is all more of a sequel idea, but even something like being able to give everybody the same voice lines so that Cook Off or Big Oil could be more engaging for a whole group. Have more active involvement in things like repairing with Dead by Daylight-style prompts or checks or having drills take longer to repair, but shortened if a second teammate decides to help. Have meth work like Alesso buttons where Bane could be like "Hydro, then Acid, then Soda" and you can put them all in roughly at once or at least closely together, and while waiting for it to cook off the batch or "cool down" between batches, you have to do the Alesso chores like putting out fires or getting replacement equipment. It sure beats getting one ingredient then waiting for a randomized amount of time for the next.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:02
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I feel like that was something Big Bank handled well, at least at release. Maybe power creep and saws being available to everyone changed that. You would have to choose between having one guy on saws and one on bags or having saws and bags be the same guy. So you would be down one or two men holding off swarms of cops with rapidly decreasing ammo supplies since it was hard to push out to scavenge ammo and the saw was so ammo hungry. You would almost always have to swap out the bag man at least once as someone went down a couple times or ran too low on ammo. That was one of my favorite maps back in '14 just because of how hectic it got holding the vault and pushing out to run bags to the van.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:18
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Unfortunately the trend from the community is to push against objective-based difficulty. This reddit post, which is basically a rant against objectives requiring defense got attention and support from Ashley, and a comment that devs were going to reduce that sort of thing. The people who are loudest and angriest tend to get dev attention. That said, it's worth trying to give some pushback in those venues, otherwise the It's worth noting that some cases of objective-based difficulty have been simplified, as well; the fusion engines on Big Oil are the most dramatic example of this.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:44
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I want to participate in the discussions and give feedback, but I just tend to hate to have to over-explain myself to Steam and Reddit dipshits who can't read between the lines. Not to mention what word soup posts from ESL users on Steam discussions do to my dyslexia.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:21
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Discendo Vox posted:Unfortunately the trend from the community is to push against objective-based difficulty. This reddit post, which is basically a rant against objectives requiring defense got attention and support from Ashley, and a comment that devs were going to reduce that sort of thing. The people who are loudest and angriest tend to get dev attention. That said, it's worth trying to give some pushback in those venues, otherwise the If only the people vocally calling bullshit on the bulletsponges were actually listened to. The feedback overwhelmingly on the Steam forums is saying this and Overkill is mum on the issue.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:44
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Secret footage of the final CANON heist for Payday 2.
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Dec 19, 2016 22:30
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national_guard_response_gets_the_overkill_endorsement dot webm
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Dec 19, 2016 22:50
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Discendo Vox posted:Unfortunately the trend from the community is to push against objective-based difficulty. This reddit post, which is basically a rant against objectives requiring defense got attention and support from Ashley, and a comment that devs were going to reduce that sort of thing. The people who are loudest and angriest tend to get dev attention. That said, it's worth trying to give some pushback in those venues, otherwise the I mean I'm not even asking for difficulty, just to be more involved in what's happening.
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Dec 20, 2016 08:52
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Why am I only getting 30 armor back using Anarchist and Bullseye? 10 + 25 should come out to 35, but it's always 30.
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Dec 20, 2016 20:59
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Plan Z posted:I mean I'm not even asking for difficulty, just to be more involved in what's happening. But you see, this is a game about clicking cops, not moving bags or fixing drills or cutting doors or stealing things or whatever.
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Dec 20, 2016 23:24
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTUOzID6m2A End-of-year wrap-up video from a now beardless Almir and a dumb hat. Interesting note: in the montage of live-action stuff from the past year, there's one scene that's a close-up of Clover aiming with a weapon, and a new angle on the scene where the car smashes through a window showing that Clover is clearly in the passenger seat. Are these from something live-action that I missed somehow, or are they cuts that never saw the light of day before?
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Dec 21, 2016 00:05
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Geight posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTUOzID6m2A End-of-year wrap-up video from a now beardless Almir and a dumb hat. Interesting note: in the montage of live-action stuff from the past year, there's one scene that's a close-up of Clover aiming with a weapon, and a new angle on the scene where the car smashes through a window showing that Clover is clearly in the passenger seat. Are these from something live-action that I missed somehow, or are they cuts that never saw the light of day before? They're new. The car bit may be related to leaked info related to vehicle customization(and new driveable vehicles) and what appears to be a driving escape map.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:11
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Nah, I went and checked. The car bits are totally an alternate angle for the Car Shop intro that was used for a day or two when that heist was released. As for Clover aiming down a weapon though, that one I can't find a source for. https://youtu.be/wTUOzID6m2A?t=7m pause it at 7:01 and compare it to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHesNJLLvF0 paused at :15. Lighting's different but that's the same car, same pane, same tree on the side. e: To be fair they could be totally recycling that footage since it would be a huge waste to drive a car through a window for a crummy free heist like car shop, but they're definitely the same shot. Geight fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 01:22
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Discendo Vox posted:Unfortunately the trend from the community is to push against objective-based difficulty. This reddit post, which is basically a rant against objectives requiring defense got attention and support from Ashley, and a comment that devs were going to reduce that sort of thing. The people who are loudest and angriest tend to get dev attention. That said, it's worth trying to give some pushback in those venues, otherwise the What happened with Fusion Engines on Big Oil? Does Bain just call out a number and then say "WAIT, You didn't grab it right? It's actually Number.. 3" UnknownMercenary posted:If only the people vocally calling bullshit on the bulletsponges were actually listened to. The feedback overwhelmingly on the Steam forums is saying this and Overkill is mum on the issue. Because it's too hard to program actual difficulty </whine>
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Dec 21, 2016 07:22
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Big Oil is like, the opposite extreme. Without looking it up the average person would have no loving idea what to do. And Overkill hasn't done anything to it except make the engine bags lighter; the puzzle itself is still fairly obtuse. That doesn't mean pubbies aren't dumb as bricks though. Something as simple as finding the computer on Big Bank is still too complex for them. I think you're also mischaracterizing that Reddit post, which is a rant against maps without cover more than it is a rant against objectives.
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Dec 21, 2016 10:54
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While we're all used to it now, the sheer lack of information on the original heists was incredible. Not just Big Oil (which may as well have been voodoo when everyone first encountered it) - things like stealing the meth back on Rats, the fact that you could stealth Nightclub, that the lasers would come back on in the vault on Day 3 of Framing Frame, etc. The lack of handholding in this game vs. so many others was kinda wonderful in its own way.
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Dec 21, 2016 11:09
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Shooting Blanks posted:While we're all used to it now, the sheer lack of information on the original heists was incredible. Not just Big Oil (which may as well have been voodoo when everyone first encountered it) - things like stealing the meth back on Rats, the fact that you could stealth Nightclub, that the lasers would come back on in the vault on Day 3 of Framing Frame, etc. The lack of handholding in this game vs. so many others was kinda wonderful in its own way.
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Dec 21, 2016 13:47
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Well, we are talking about a game that took 100 updates to get a proper tutorial heist...UnknownMercenary posted:
I have nearly 1700 hours and I am terrible at finding that loving computer. In general I'm terrible at the Big Bank objectives eg I also don't know how to drop the pig, so usually I leave it to other people and focus on killing enemies - or on one particularly fun OD run yesterday, leading enemies on a merry chase because I had 0 ammo - so they can do their thing instead. UnknownMercenary posted:
His most valid point is that this is a game where you're definitely going to get hit by enemy fire, even with maximum dodge. And on high difficulties you can only be hit a few times before you're downed, and eventually go into custody. So, cover is important but maps like Goat Simulator have a near-total lack of good cover. He's exaggerating about Biker Heist though - the turret is annoying but not difficult to avoid, especially if get the truck spawn that is closer to the escape. It's not even that difficult to destroy, even on One Down. I also have no idea what he's on about Captain Winters in Stealing Xmas; with any grenade launcher or explosive ammo he's extremely easy to take out. I can conceivably see that heisters that own only the base game might have problems, but that applies to Captain Winters in general, not just that one map. In conclusion while he makes a good point about cover he probably isn't as good a player as he thinks he is.
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Dec 21, 2016 15:37
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I'm glad to know that it wasnt just me. Having started playing the game for the first time so recently it is all so fresh, how opaque so many things seemed, and still are. Such as trying to find out what Far Away Basic really gives a bonus to (directly to accuracy or to an unspecified accuracy bonus that you get for ADS) or, well, so many little things, really. I was Real Bad at this game until I started playing with goons and people were kind enough to enlighten me. During beta and at release this game was...flawed. But part of the charm was simply figuring out how poo poo worked with goons - that was a lot of fun.
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Dec 21, 2016 15:42
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Shooting Blanks posted:During beta and at release this game was...flawed. But part of the charm was simply figuring out how poo poo worked with goons - that was a lot of fun. Wastrel_ posted:His most valid point is that this is a game where you're definitely going to get hit by enemy fire, even with maximum dodge. And on high difficulties you can only be hit a few times before you're downed, and eventually go into custody. So, cover is important but maps like Goat Simulator have a near-total lack of good cover. He's exaggerating about Biker Heist though - the turret is annoying but not difficult to avoid, especially if get the truck spawn that is closer to the escape. It's not even that difficult to destroy, even on One Down. I also have no idea what he's on about Captain Winters in Stealing Xmas; with any grenade launcher or explosive ammo he's extremely easy to take out. I can conceivably see that heisters that own only the base game might have problems, but that applies to Captain Winters in general, not just that one map.
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Dec 21, 2016 15:54
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Shooting Blanks posted:While we're all used to it now, the sheer lack of information on the original heists was incredible. Not just Big Oil (which may as well have been voodoo when everyone first encountered it) - things like stealing the meth back on Rats, the fact that you could stealth Nightclub, that the lasers would come back on in the vault on Day 3 of Framing Frame, etc. The lack of handholding in this game vs. so many others was kinda wonderful in its own way. That or the fact that everybody heard different lines on Rats 1, or that some lines were outright lies like the internet=caustic, hydrogen=something else thing we all had to memorize. That's still a feature I really don't like.
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Dec 21, 2016 16:40
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Meth helper mod fixes that, but personally I just listen for Bain to repeat the ingredient twice before adding it. As far as using RNG to gently caress players over, that's far from the worst example in the game. Yes, they should not be able to destroy thrown grenades by shooting. It's total bullshit, but grenades are crap anyway if you have either molotov cocktails (BBQ pack) or any of the grenade launchers.
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Dec 21, 2016 17:52
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UnknownMercenary posted:Big Oil is like, the opposite extreme. Without looking it up the average person would have no loving idea what to do. And Overkill hasn't done anything to it except make the engine bags lighter; the puzzle itself is still fairly obtuse. They removed a bunch of possible engines, changed the pressure gauges, and massively lightened the engine. In the past, carrying the engine out of the heist was the hardest part because it required a coordinated defense. And the puzzle is both a) quite easy and b) not necessary to solve the heist.
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Dec 21, 2016 17:56
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Shooting Blanks posted:While we're all used to it now, the sheer lack of information on the original heists was incredible. Not just Big Oil (which may as well have been voodoo when everyone first encountered it) - things like stealing the meth back on Rats, the fact that you could stealth Nightclub, that the lasers would come back on in the vault on Day 3 of Framing Frame, etc. The lack of handholding in this game vs. so many others was kinda wonderful in its own way. Shooting Blanks posted:During beta and at release this game was...flawed. But part of the charm was simply figuring out how poo poo worked with goons - that was a lot of fun.  Discendo Vox posted:And the puzzle is both a) quite easy and b) not necessary to solve the heist.  These are both pretty disingenuous things to say, Vox. The puzzle isn't completely opaque if you can find all the relevant pieces of information, and can parse the whiteboards, but the average player is also forced to juggle all of that while also fighting off the cops, another thing pubbies are notoriously bad at. It can also be sabotaged if someone breaks the monitor with the pressure readout, or if a pubbie follows their pubbie instincts and starts mindlessly bagging up the engines. They did also make that segment a tiny bit more complicated by making the breaker boxes cut power to the basement.How did they change the pressure gauges? (I also had to look it up to remember that they did in fact finally fix the stupid loving trap fusion intel a while ago.) John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 19:18
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