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Lobok posted:just leave out the teasing of her being the Wasp out of the story in the first place. It did? Post-credits don't really count.
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Dec 19, 2016 15:27
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Aphrodite posted:It did? Post-credits don't really count. The actual costume during the post-credits scene was only a small part of it.
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Dec 19, 2016 15:31
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Wheat Loaf posted:In that respect, a hack isn't a bad thing to be because you can make a lot of money being a hack. But but but....The Art!
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Dec 19, 2016 15:49
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BrianWilly posted:The following passages are gonna be copied and pasted from something I wrote somewhere else so forgive me if it's a bit awkward, but I just wanted to say that this situation with Hope doesn't actually end up being all that much less sexist just because they try to frame it as a deliberate narrative choice. 
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Dec 19, 2016 15:53
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But seriously that's a bit of a silly argument. Hope is shown throughout the film to be incredibly independent, and more than capable of doing the job. While Pym's over-protection of her can be seen as somewhat sexist, it's more to do with what happened to Janet than anything else. Seriously, are we really at a point where media is being labelled as being discriminatory for portraying discrimination as being a bad thing?
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Dec 19, 2016 16:02
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I watch movies and I actually do notice these kinds of diversity issues, but this one is totally out of left field. It definitely feels like stomping around for the sake of it. I haven't watched Ant-Man in a bit, but I thought Hank's hang-up about Hope doing super poo poo was that she was his only child and the last thing he loved in the world. Not that she was a woman. I don't believe if Hank had a son he would've been like "Eh, gently caress it". His character arc is that he stops coddling Hope and starts treating her like an adult. Not that he's a sexist who learns about #girlpower. It was just genuine adult fear. Your logic is coming off as flawed to me. How do you buy into any film's conflict if you immediately reason "Well, that character wouldn't be having this problem if the writers didn't add it in there." That's how works of fiction work, yes. It's not even like they flipped through several tremendous hoops to do it. They didn't make it so that the Ant-Man suit only responded to a Y chromosome or something.
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Dec 19, 2016 16:18
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irlZaphod posted:But seriously that's a bit of a silly argument. Hope is shown throughout the film to be incredibly independent, and more than capable of doing the job. While Pym's over-protection of her can be seen as somewhat sexist, it's more to do with what happened to Janet than anything else. No movie exists in a vacuum. A single movie is not inherently bad for portraying discrimination but when the MCU's first female superhero movie was still four years away, it just rings a little hollow to have a story ask "doesn't it suck that this woman is being held back from being a superhero?" Edit: single movie is *not inherently bad Lobok fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 16:35
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Yeah it's mostly that: sure, the story made sense in terms of what Hank Pym's motivations were and his relationship with his daughter and all that, but in the end they made a goofy movie about shrinky superheroes and made "the lady can't do the fun super stuff" an explicit part of it. Even if in the end they say "ah, but it was wrong not to let the lady do the fun super stuff", they're still making us wait 4 years to see her participate in the escapist power fantasy. It also had Judy Greer in a thankless Judy Greer role. Still enjoyed the movie, don't blame my wife for checking out (though honestly that was more about the bugs).
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Dec 19, 2016 16:53
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I really find it hard to have an issue with her character when she by far is the most competent character in the film. That and there are legitimate story reasons for her not being a costumed hero which are solved by the credits.
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Dec 19, 2016 16:53
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Lobok posted:No movie exists in a vacuum. A single movie is not inherently bad for portraying discrimination but when the MCU's first female superhero movie was still four years away, it just rings a little hollow to have a story ask "doesn't it suck that this woman is being held back from being a superhero?"
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Dec 19, 2016 17:27
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irlZaphod posted:This is bizarre... Wright, Reed and the others behind Ant-Man don't have any control over what Marvel greenlights or doesn't. You're really conflating two different things here. Yes, it's lovely that there was no solo Black Widow film spun out of Iron Man or Avengers, and that Captain Marvel is still years away, but that doesn't make it hypocritical of Marvel to make films featuring strong female characters. I'm not saying anything about hypocrisy. Imagine you're a fan who wants to see a female-led superhero. It's thin gruel to be watching a superhero film that clearly lays out a way for a woman to be a superhero but then teases that you'll have to wait for a second film that may not actually happen. Again, this particular movie isn't bad for telling the story it wants to tell. But someone watching it might be sick of how its story progresses in relation to all the other films that are (or are not) happening.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:37
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Omnomnomnivore posted:Now I'm pretty sure I've watched every Marvel thing except for Agents of Shield. You're gonna wanna fix this immediately. It's easily better than all the movies or Netflix shows. I didn't see anything sexist about the way Hope was treated in Antman. She was strong, competent, independent, and involved. Hank "held her back" with getting into the suit not because she was a woman, but because he was a dad. He lost his wife (when Janet independently decided to do something heroic) and didn't wanna lose her too. I didn't imagine the situation being any different if it had been a son instead of a daughter, especially since you had a similar restrictive dynamic with Hank and Darren. Sure, she doesn't get a super-suit, but that doesn't make her less of a hero in the film. She's not taking a backseat to Scott/Ant-Man. If anything, I think she has probably the best female presence in all the Marvel films and hope she gets utilized like this more in the future instead of being reduced to "female superhero."
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Dec 19, 2016 19:17
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Jamesman posted:You're gonna wanna fix this immediately. It's easily better than all the movies or Netflix shows. Haha ok sure
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Dec 19, 2016 19:22
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purple death ray posted:Haha ok sure That was ridiculously hyperbolic, but Agents of SHIELD is a good show worth watching.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:25
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purple death ray posted:Haha ok sure http://i.imgur.com/yPmlBd0.gifv
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Dec 19, 2016 19:26
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If the guy's complaining about the movie writing SHIELD wouldn't be my first recommendation.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:27
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Phylodox posted:That was ridiculously hyperbolic, but Agents of SHIELD is a good show worth watching. If you hate yourself.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:39
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Aphrodite posted:It did? Post-credits don't really count. Why do the post credits not count as teasers when that's literally what they're for As for Hope i guess I'm conflicted, on the one hand she is arguably the best character in the movie and is obviously the stronger and more competent of the two, on the other, even though it is written in a way that supposed to be lol you men are dumb Hope is a badass the movie is still using sexist tropes unnecessarily. Hell even emh managed to include both Hank and Jan doing super hero work in a half hour introductory episode. I dunno, it could've been a lot worse for her i guess but it could've been better too, i guess im just thankful that the next movie is called the ant man and wasp 
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Dec 19, 2016 20:04
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Because Marvel chooses those, not the people responsible for the movie you just watched.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:17
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oic
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Dec 19, 2016 20:27
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Agents of SHIELD is a car crash.
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Dec 19, 2016 23:12
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Aphrodite posted:Because Marvel chooses those, not the people responsible for the movie you just watched. Except for when they don't like with Guardians.
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Dec 19, 2016 23:35
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This is really cool. It is in no way indicative of the spectacle, or effects or budget of the actual end product. The first season is pretty good until about episode 16 at which point it revs up through the finale and hits a high water mark that it never quite seems to reach again.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:05
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Wait how long has ghost rider been on agents of shield?
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Dec 20, 2016 00:15
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Since September.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:17
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Ignite Memories posted:Wait how long has ghost rider been on agents of shield? Start of Season 3.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:17
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He was the first half-season arc this year. Probably won't be around for the second.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:35
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Omnomnomnivore posted:(though honestly that was more about the bugs). I'm definitely going to come off as a dick for saying this (and so I do apologise) but its er... ironic that your wife leaves a movie partly because of its sexist handling of the women in the film but mainly because it had gross, icky bugs in it. Again not wanting to pry or whatever but what did she do whilst you stayed inside? Stomped around the foyer kicking down Antman advertising? Got her magnifying glass out and went scouting round the parking lot? Sat in the bar? Its been a while since I saw it but there is surely meant to be something in the fact that Michael Douglas treats his daughter a certain way (and there is tension between them) and then Paul Rudd is pushed towards taking up his mantle and also coincidentally has a daughter? I dunno. Should movies acknowledge the patriarchy and tilt towards a gradual and codependent improvement or just ignore it and give us kickass women right here right now?
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Dec 20, 2016 00:40
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NotJustANumber99 posted:Should movies acknowledge the patriarchy and tilt towards a gradual and codependent improvement or just ignore it and give us kickass women right here right now? This isn't a binary either/or situation.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:47
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purple death ray posted:This isn't a binary either/or situation. I kind of think it is. A bit. But yeah I'm totally out of my depth and unsure. Like wonderwoman can be I guess but she literally comes from a society of only women. If the wasp is just able to be the heroine no questions asked, given the society she has been brought up in (i.e. ours), is that doing the first part? I mean the whole thing is probably not ideal given that we are dealing with characters of huge 1%er wealth anyway. EDIT> Sorry I also meant to say that kickass is probably not a helpful term to have used, Evangeline Lilly's character was obviously already kickass. Given that she kicked people's asses. NotJustANumber99 fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 01:03
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It's really not, though. Look at say, Silence of the Lambs. A huge plot point in that movie is Clarice Starling's attempts at navigating the intensely male-dominated field of law enforcement, but she's also shown throughout the movie to be a capable, skilled agent. She's the one who eventually finds and kills Buffalo Bill while the men who discounted her skills and told her to sit it out storm into an empty house. Vasquez in Aliens is introduced to the audience via a sexist joke but is one of the most beloved bad-asses in action movie history. Elle Sattler in Jurassic Park has an old man who limps around on a cane tell her he should be the one to go reset the generator because he's a man, and she spends the whole movie running around in hiking boots saving people from dinosaurs. These are three of the most popular movies of all time, I'm sure there's dozens more examples to be found. It's really not hard at all to show a woman being a bad-rear end and still being faced with the kind of casual, everyday sexism that every single woman can relate to.
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Dec 20, 2016 01:14
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purple death ray posted:It's really not hard at all to show a woman being a bad-rear end and still being faced with the kind of casual, everyday sexism that every single woman can relate to. Thats the crux of it I think. And you are right. I just sucked at saying it. I would add though that its more than casual everyday sexism that is the issue with The Wasp becoming the heroine. Its entrenched gender roles that prevent women from entering boardrooms and earning the same money when those few actually do. Its not about being overtly cartoonly sexist, its about Michael Douglas making a very well intentioned and reasoned decision for his daughter, but ultimately making it because shes a girl. Will the next generation antman do the same thing? I honestly can't remember if he does or not in the movie, but that would be an indication of a societal, generational change in thought. Rather than a girl right now who is able to thumb their nose at society and do everything brilliantly.
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Dec 20, 2016 01:35
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Lobok posted:I'm not saying anything about hypocrisy. Imagine you're a fan who wants to see a female-led superhero. It's thin gruel to be watching a superhero film that clearly lays out a way for a woman to be a superhero but then teases that you'll have to wait for a second film that may not actually happen. Again, this particular movie isn't bad for telling the story it wants to tell. But someone watching it might be sick of how its story progresses in relation to all the other films that are (or are not) happening. If you're a fan who wants to see a female-led superhero, maybe you shouldn't have sat down to watch Ant-Man. It's not like advertising and trailers tricked people into thinking Hope was the main character and then they got swerved. You knew what you signed up for. site posted:Hell even emh managed to include both Hank and Jan doing super hero work in a half hour introductory episode. The cartoon had the benefit of all of its heroes being already established in the universe. That is why they were able to use Wasp from the jump. The movie had to do leg work.
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Dec 20, 2016 02:41
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So i saw rogue one today and besides being a great movie, there was a trailer for the mummy with Tom cruise and i swear it's suicide squad
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Dec 20, 2016 02:46
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SonicRulez posted:Your logic is coming off as flawed to me. How do you buy into any film's conflict if you immediately reason "Well, that character wouldn't be having this problem if the writers didn't add it in there." That's how works of fiction work, yes. It's not even like they flipped through several tremendous hoops to do it. They didn't make it so that the Ant-Man suit only responded to a Y chromosome or something. SonicRulez posted:I watch movies and I actually do notice these kinds of diversity issues, but this one is totally out of left field. It definitely feels like stomping around for the sake of it. I haven't watched Ant-Man in a bit, but I thought Hank's hang-up about Hope doing super poo poo was that she was his only child and the last thing he loved in the world. Not that she was a woman. I don't believe if Hank had a son he would've been like "Eh, gently caress it". His character arc is that he stops coddling Hope and starts treating her like an adult. Not that he's a sexist who learns about #girlpower. It was just genuine adult fear. First of all, the problem with saying stuff like "Hope would be treated the same if she were a man" is that, well, she wasn't a man. That wasn't what we got. This wasn't a film where a man got replaced by another man, or even another woman; what we got was yet another film with a female character who has every right to what the man has, but still ends up being sidelined. Yes, Hope is more heroic and competent and arguably more likable, in some ways, than Scott is in the film. But Scott is the one who will get the headlines, the merchandise, the Halloween costumes, the big awesome Civil War moments; Scott ends up being the superhero here, while no one will be wearing Hope Van Dyne costumes or picking Hope Van Dyne characters in their video games. The problematic situation isn't suddenly justified by us imagining an alternate universe where the situation wasn't problematic. The other thing is that I'm just gonna say, no, Hope probably wouldn't be treated the same way if she were Hank's son; you just don't see those kinds of stories being told. When a male character is explicitly competent and heroic, they're just allowed to be heroes without complaint and that's that. And when movie fathers do tell their movie sons not to go off and be movie heroes, the end result is usually that the son disobeys the father and goes off to do it anyway. The whole problem with Hope's situation is that her father refuses her call to action, and the movie just goes along with it for no particular reason and tells us that the character is vindicated in the teaser scene because she'll get her chance in the suit in four or five more years. As this review puts it: quote:"The problem is that Hope, an original character, exists because the movie knew it had to have a female lead, and understands vaguely that female lead characters should be capable no-nonsense women, but didn’t actually want her to do anything. And so it digs itself into a hole: It goes out of its way to establish that Hope is already a better candidate for leading the heist than Scott may ever be, and that it would make much more sense to let her retrieve Hank’s secret technology rather than allow a complete stranger with a criminal past that includes whistleblowing to handle it. The only thing in her way is Hank Pym and his personal issues, which stem from the film’s other looming problem with female characters: the removal of Janet van Dyne — the only female founding member of the comic book version of the Avengers — from the modern Marvel movie universe.
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Dec 20, 2016 02:51
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SonicRulez posted:If you're a fan who wants to see a female-led superhero, maybe you shouldn't have sat down to watch Ant-Man. It's not like advertising and trailers tricked people into thinking Hope was the main character and then they got swerved. You knew what you signed up for. I liked the movie very much. I own it. I'm capable of pointing out things about a movie I think could have been better without hating the whole thing or claiming I was sold a bill of goods. No one expected or wanted the film to be about Hope and that's not what anyone has been saying.
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Dec 20, 2016 04:15
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NotJustANumber99 posted:I'm definitely going to come off as a dick for saying this (and so I do apologise) but its er... ironic that your wife leaves a movie partly because of its sexist handling of the women in the film but mainly because it had gross, icky bugs in it. Again not wanting to pry or whatever but what did she do whilst you stayed inside? Stomped around the foyer kicking down Antman advertising? Got her magnifying glass out and went scouting round the parking lot? Sat in the bar? She went into the other room and played a video game. She hates both the patriarchy and bugs. She contains multitudes.
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Dec 20, 2016 04:21
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site posted:So i saw rogue one today and besides being a great movie, there was a trailer for the mummy with Tom cruise and i swear it's suicide squad I believe they're making another go of the Universal Monsters Cinematic Universe they tried a few years back with Dracula Untold. Russell Crowe will be playing Dr Jekyll in it, who I suppose is meant to be the Nick Fury of the series. I would be more interested if it had a "period" setting like the Brendan Fraser movies (the first two of which were quite good) because I think it would make it stand out from the other big franchises, since they're all set in something resembling the present day. In any event, I think their version of Kevin Feige or Geoff Johns - the "showrunner" for the series - is apparently going to be Roberto Orci, so
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Dec 20, 2016 11:52
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BrianWilly posted:Having paternal feelings and fears is sexist.
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Dec 20, 2016 18:46
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After about the first 45 minutes or so, I really, really enjoyed Dracula Untold. The ending stinger with Charles Dance pumped me up for a sequel.
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Dec 20, 2016 20:01
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