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Why did dare post in this thread? Also I beat all 27 levels of the zig and it didnt make a new one.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:00
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taqueso posted:How badass do you need to be to finish the entire zig? I've only been in one once, and around lvl14 it got very difficult. I think that level was a pack of pan lords plus retinue. It's kinda like how you can do extended as a melee dude but it's really hard and you're likely to die, but also there are certain levels where you'll just die. I've never seen a melee (even a hybrid) complete a zig, but I've only attempted it with a naga of chei and generic HECj and have only done 15-runes like twice as a melee character.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:01
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Chakan posted:It's kinda like how you can do extended as a melee dude but it's really hard and you're likely to die, but also there are certain levels where you'll just die. I did it as a hybrid by forgetting I had a sword and spamming tornado and shatter each floor. By far the most dangerous floors were the tomb themed ones. So much torment.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:02
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:Also I beat all 27 levels of the zig and it didnt make a new one. Need to take the golden figure with you and use it to spawn the new one.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:06
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resistentialism posted:Need to take the golden figure with you and use it to spawn the new one. Oops. At any rate this run has petered out. I can kill any and every thing I run into. Time to go beat up hell, beat up the royal jelly, and finish my first successful 15 rune run. Powered by death is so good.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:08
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Most of the changes on the .20 list look good! I'd just like to indicate my opinion that if the game becomes shorter, which is good, experience really needs to become more plentiful. This is not an argument based on difficulty. Berserkers would still be able to win the game "easily" with half the experience, and other archetypes could do so with skillful play without extreme difficulty. However, a reduction in the amount of experience available in the game would decrease the number of possible skill combinations that could win. That number has already decreased, though not to a very meaningful degree. Further reductions in the amount of experience available would surely lead to a much more restrictive class and skill system, which would seriously damage one of the most interesting strategic aspects of DCSS' play style. To use dpeg's principle which, to be honest, I feel is overly reductive and slightly deceptive, a further reduction in the amount of experience available in a game would reduce choices available to the player, rather than increase them. I'd also like to suggest that as the game becomes more and more streamlined, it starts to lose its identity. I agree with the removal of the haste spell and I agree with the removal of the haste wand. But, I worry that an overly rigorous focus on "meaningful choices" based on random, emergent factors will move the game significantly away from an "rpg", which is the kind of game I like to play, to some kind of weird, abstracted single player chess match that will have overall far less broad appeal. Such design principles, for example, are one reason I don't like Sil in spite of many reasons to adore it, and are a reason I have no interest in Brogue. These principles are only interesting on a purely intellectual level, but, psychologically, are utterly unappealing to me, and probably to many other players as well. Ferrinus posted:Hey: before bringing back Pakellas, bring back Singularity. Just pick between one and three of these balance fixes: make it tloc/hexes 9, forbid it from affecting stuff you can't see, make the singularity itself a traversable square rather than an obstacle (it blinks or teleports anything entering it, maybe?) This is correct. The spell opened up a large number of tactical options to a player than invested enough to use it and synergized in different ways with each of the other level nine spells. It was problematic, yes, but it was also extremely good. Removing it was a major blight on the game. Heithinn Grasida fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 17:15
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You could also make the pull (not the damage(a fraction of the damage??)) affect the caster, give it a Tornado style cooldown, a Dragon Call mana drain, whatever. Just bring it back. It was so cool
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Dec 19, 2016 17:21
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I'm not going to give suggestions on how to improve the game or try to change the dev's minds because I'm not a game designer and I've never won this game. (Someday I will) But I'm still upset at the removal of High Elves because I like their apts and their flavor. At least, what passes for flavor in a text based roguelike.
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Dec 19, 2016 17:36
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Chakan posted:It's kinda like how you can do extended as a melee dude but it's really hard and you're likely to die, Heithinn Grasida posted:Most of the changes on the .20 list look good! I'd just like to indicate my opinion that if the game becomes shorter, which is good, experience really needs to become more plentiful. This feels like one of those things where it seemed like everyone was on the same page-if you asked me one week ago, I'd say that basically all experienced crawl players held the opinion that crawl has too much XP. (I certainly feel that way, and most of the players I talk to.) But it seems like recently there's been more people pushing back in the maximalist direction, probably due to these recent changes. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 17:42
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I think skalds are the perfect mix of survivability so a rookie mistake wont kill me outright and interesting magic based gameplay. I've consistently made it to lair with my skalds which is more than I can say for my pure spellcaster characters. Being a hybrid class also leaves my choice of god a bit more open. I've liked what I've played of Hep, but what are some other interesting religion choices for a skald?
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Dec 19, 2016 18:29
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Serephina posted:Veh just offered my DECj spellforged servitor; I took it on a lark despite my only experience with it being hugely negative (gross antisynergy with ChainLit and Tornado). With haste now gone (and me ruing my charms investment for Battlesphere), is this actually a good spell anymore? It seems absurdly limiting in order to get it work (the HUGE pruning of own spellbook with super-limited amnesia scrolls) only to get a few extra casts of Parrow/Iood/LCS? In my experience it's fantastic, one of the best spells in the game. Before you learn your capstone spell it nearly doubles your attack power through OoD and bolt spam, all with no MP cost beyond the initial casting. It also works as a reasonable meatshield, eating fire for you. Even at the endgame if you have LCS and Firestorm or whatever, the servitor adds a lot to your destructive power and can kill a lot of enemies on its own and cover your retreat if you get in trouble. Trimming is something you'd want to do anyway, right? It may just be my favorite spells tend to work well with the servitor, but I find that happening naturally as I trade in weaker attack spells for more death and utility. dpeg posted:I assume that those of you interested in these questions are familiar with the 0.20 development plan. No guarantees that all/any of this will actually happen, but these are the current ideas. More obsure is the c-r-d mailing list. I won't have time to discuss all of this in detail, but I thought some of you might want to know what's going on. Is the "passive buff status vetoed" thing a reference to the idea that buffs can take a chunk of mp depending on spellpower and occasionally auto-check for spell failure? I think that's a solid solution to charms being tedious that preserves the same balance we have now.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:45
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That turns charms into permanent buffs for every not-trog melee character who doesn't otherwise use MP. I think it should be the opposite, spell heavy characters should benefit the most, while with this, it's the opposite.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:26
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Limit the number of buff slots but increase it with spellpower. A fighter can pick one support spell depending on his needs, and a major caster can use many/all of them.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:30
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Microcline posted:Haste is too powerful to be put on a wand, especially one that doesn't require any skill investment to use. The ability to recharge wands means that finding a haste wand gives you near-unlimited use of the most powerful buff in the game. Haste wands remove the resource management aspect that makes haste balanced. So remove or reduce the spawn rate of ?recharge. Then /[haste|tele|hw] are still an awesome find but not an unlimited source of that resource until the end of the game. You might have to rework rods some but they could use another pass anyways.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:44
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Eela6 posted:So remove or reduce the spawn rate of ?recharge. Then /[haste|tele|hw] are still an awesome find but not an unlimited source of that resource until the end of the game. You might have to rework rods some but they could use another pass anyways. Let rods take Enchant Weapon scrolls to get a bigger + and capacity (there are more slots for armour and thus they get used more anyhow and the + suggests they would get enchantments somehow). Then let them be used from the inventory like suggested. A simultaneous nerf and buff, and they end up less annoying to use. Maybe rename Enchant Weapon scrolls too if more clarity on that point is needed but that's just a name. I don't know if Enchant Weapon would need to be more common then or you'd just expect to use most rods as they come, with the option of having a place to use EW if you have a randart weapon or are using evocations more than attacking. Maybe make rods spawn with negative pluses less often? This is just a random idea I threw out, anyhow? Prism fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 20:48
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Holy poo poo I found a +7 randart spear with freezing alongside a +6 ring of protection, a +5 ring of evasion, a +2 helmet, a +2 cloak, boots & gloves, and a fire wand all before I hit the temple. This is gonna be a great run.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:49
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Heithinn Grasida posted:Most of the changes on the .20 list look good! I'd just like to indicate my opinion that if the game becomes shorter, which is good, experience really needs to become more plentiful. quote:However, a reduction in the amount of experience available in the game would decrease the number of possible skill combinations that could win. That number has already decreased, though not to a very meaningful degree. Further reductions in the amount of experience available would surely lead to a much more restrictive class and skill system, which would seriously damage one of the most interesting strategic aspects of DCSS' play style. quote:To use dpeg's principle which, to be honest, I feel is overly reductive and slightly deceptive, a further reduction in the amount of experience available in a game would reduce choices available to the player, rather than increase them. quote:I'd also like to suggest that as the game becomes more and more streamlined, it starts to lose its identity. I agree with the removal of the haste spell and I agree with the removal of the haste wand. But, I worry that an overly rigorous focus on "meaningful choices" based on random, emergent factors will move the game significantly away from an "rpg", which is the kind of game I like to play, to some kind of weird, abstracted single player chess match that will have overall far less broad appeal. Such design principles, for example, are one reason I don't like Sil in spite of many reasons to adore it, and are a reason I have no interest in Brogue. However, this past-focused approach misses that new flavour is injected into the game, all the time. This is probably much harder to see than the losses. I'll give some examples: some of the more recent god additions ooze flavour (Ru, Hepliaqklana, Uskayaw), and even current Trog is way more flavourful than old Trog, same for Okawaru and Vehumet. The current set of uniques is much more interesting, and fun to talk about, than the old crew (which were a bunch of humans with names), think of Dowan & Duvessa, Grinder, Crazy Yiuf, to mention just some earlyish ones. Even monsters have been changed to be more flavourful, rather than just walking bags of slightly different numbers. The Abyss and the Slime Pits are much more interesting places than they were when we got them. Another source of flavour are the portal vaults: ziggurats, troves, wizlabs, but also the early ones, can really help turning a single game into something more story-like. (Which to me is partially what flavour is about.) So whenever you think about how Crawl has a dessicated corpse of a roguelike, I encourage you think whether there's something new that tickles your fancy. This is off-topic, but I've got to say it: I fully concur with what you say about Sil: in principle, it should be a game I love; it has all the right design prinicples, and executes them perfectly. I just cannot play the game (I've tried). On the other hand, once I got over its (overly flashy, in my opinion) visuals, I could fully dive into Brogue -- and I think that games has plenty of flavour to offer. But hey, it's awesome that the roguelike genre is rich enough to provide such a wide range of games. Mr. Prokosch posted:Is the "passive buff status vetoed" thing a reference to the idea that buffs can take a chunk of mp depending on spellpower and occasionally auto-check for spell failure? I think that's a solid solution to charms being tedious that preserves the same balance we have now. dpeg fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 20:55
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Prism posted:Let rods take Enchant Weapon scrolls to get a bigger + and capacity (there are more slots for armour and thus they get used more anyhow and the + suggests they would get enchantments somehow). Then let them be used from the inventory like suggested. FWIW I like this proposal.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:57
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tweet my meat posted:Holy poo poo I found a +7 randart spear with freezing alongside a +6 ring of protection, a +5 ring of evasion, a +2 helmet, a +2 cloak, boots & gloves, and a fire wand all before I hit the temple. This is gonna be a great run. Looking forward to your death to a goblin with a distort dagger.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:59
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I've got it, with low evocations haste wands could banish you!
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Dec 19, 2016 21:00
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Heithinn Grasida posted:Most of the changes on the .20 list look good! I'd just like to indicate my opinion that if the game becomes shorter, which is good, experience really needs to become more plentiful. dpeg posted:Sure, xp reduction makes the game harder. That is the point. However, the powerhouse combinations (Mi/Tr melee, DE casters, Spriggans) would still work. IronicDongz posted:This feels like one of those things where it seemed like everyone was on the same page-if you asked me one week ago, I'd say that basically all experienced crawl players held the opinion that crawl has too much XP. (I certainly feel that way, and most of the players I talk to.) But it seems like recently there's been more people pushing back in the maximalist direction, probably due to these recent changes. If you steadily decrease the amount of experience in the game, you'll get a steady decrease in the number of experienced players who say "there is too much xp". This is a trend which, much like the shortening of branches, has been ongoing for some time (much longer than a week! :P), and it's worth treating with respect. I personally think that, outside of extended, crawl no longer has a 'glut' of experience. In 3-rune games, I never get that old feeling of 'more xp than i know what to do with'; xp is reasonably tight from start to end. Crawl is a very 'loosely balanced' game, so you probably could cut somewhat more xp without doing noticable harm. I don't think there's any actual need to do so, however, and I think a lot of the urge to do so is inertia: like you said everyone knows that crawl has too much XP, since it always used to... And some of Heithinn's concerns are very reasonable; I don't care about 'roleplaying' in dcss at all, but I've been worried about the Fate of the Hybrid for some time now. They're a more fragile species than the evergreen MiBe or DECj and thus more endangered by shrinking habitats... it seems very possible to me that cutting xp aggressively will shrink the variety of 'viable' character combinations significantly.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:08
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SirSamVimes posted:Looking forward to your death to a goblin with a distort dagger. With the way my luck has been going I'm due to get hosed over. I found an amulet of regeneration as well so I can poke from behind my spectral weapon and ancestor and use the amulet and regen spell to stay topped up during longer battles. This run is almost certainly going to be my new high score, though probably not a win at my current skill level. Also holy poo poo I love song of slaying. I'm just ripping through orc bands and gnoll patrols like cheap paper. I hope I can make it to the orc mines this run to really test drive the spell.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:09
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Shortening the length of the dungeon not only gives you less XP but also gives you less loot if you don't tweak item generation. Personally I don't like the idea of making early dungeon and Lair any shorter than they already are. This is because it makes it harder to skip a floor if it has absurdly bad spawns you don't want to deal with. I don't think early game needs to get harder, especially not when it comes to getting hosed over by malevolent RNG.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:13
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Pan scumming is great except somehow I still ended up with a bunch of mutations despite having the second tier of stable genetics and the alchemists hat.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:18
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As someone who mostly plays fightymans because I don't feel comfortable in other roles (though I'm trying to learn blaster mages now), and who doesn't consider themselves very good at the game, reducing the early-game XP sounds unnecessary - I'd feel like I wouldn't be able to branch out at all, being pigeonholed more than I already am. Like Heithinn Grasida and PleasingFungus put it, it really hurts anything but the purest of the pures. Tweaking the mid- to late-game doesn't sound as bad. I really like the Elf vs Salt branch idea and I think the non-Lair and Vaults runes could use some looking at. Reducing the easily available XP late to convince characters to remain somewhat focused does not sound horrible. But the early and middle section should allow characters to obtain that focus without being outclassed. I don't feel especially glutted on XP during a 3-rune game and I have actually gone back a couple times because I got to Zot with three runes but didn't feel like I had enough power to handle Zot:5.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:20
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drat, I got cocky in the Orcish Mines and got caught by like 7 or so priests in that big building at the end. That ended very quickly.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:48
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So, dpeg's ideal version of crawl is sprint?
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Dec 19, 2016 21:49
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:Pan scumming is great except somehow I still ended up with a bunch of mutations despite having the second tier of stable genetics and the alchemists hat. E Equals MC Hammer posted:Pan scumming Found the source of your problem. Also, I agree that hwounds/haste/tele wands should head out (or recharge, one of the two), but there should absolutely be thought put into how to handle the fallout first (like mummies, for example) before removing them. I don't want to see another rMut/Malmutate, where rMut was definitely bad design but just removing it without fixing the rest of the system just makes that system way more frustrating. XP is also fine now, IMO. The only time I felt I could sleepwalk through the game was with the powercombos, and usually only by Vaults.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:54
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You could give Bone Dragons a beetle breath attack.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:56
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I am in favor of removing floors but against removing xp for what it's worth. I feel like there's too many places where I never die but I'm happy with the xp balance. Maybe remove floors but increase the xp of end branch "only" enemies (i.e. enemies like shadow dragons that rarely appear outside of an end vault)? If I were crawl god for a day I'd probably reduce D to eight floors (temple on 3, lair on 5, orc on 5 or 6, vault on 7, depths on 8), reduce lair branches (other than slime) to 2 (but put in a higher chance of dangerous enemies on the first floor like orc got), and reduce Zot to 2 or 3 (but make ancient liches normal spawns; OoFs can stay special). Vaults and depths routinely feel dangerous on all floors so they don't need trimming by this logic. Though if I were really crawl god for a day I'd use my divine powers to invent enemies like vault denizens for every branch. In my opinion, wardens and convokers are basically the perfect crawl enemy: flavorful, unique, demanding of an immediate change of tactics when one comes on screen, and primarily a force multiplier on other enemies rather than dangerous by themselves. There's other enemies like that (deep elf elementalists come to mind) but vault is the only place the feels full of them. I acknowledge that inventing perfect enemies is hard though and I sure don't have and ideas.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:57
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Carcer posted:So, dpeg's ideal version of crawl is sprint? If that is the case, then I am the best winner; I submit as evidence the only time that we had tournament points riding on a Sprint I was the first finisher. The top 3 were all Spriggans. And I think all three of us were Enchanters too. Ideal! 
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Dec 19, 2016 21:59
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Floodkiller posted:Found the source of your problem. Ashenzari + pan = all the skills
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Dec 19, 2016 22:06
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Sage Grimm posted:The top 3 were all Spriggans. And I think all three of us were Enchanters too. Ideal! Meaningful player choice: achieved!
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Dec 19, 2016 22:57
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Sage Grimm posted:If that is the case, then I am the best winner; I submit as evidence the only time that we had tournament points riding on a Sprint I was the first finisher. Edit: lol autocorrect invo into invoice Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 23:07
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Nah, 0.7 release so this was well before Qazlal. Newest god was Jivya!
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Dec 20, 2016 00:27
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Is there a way to have a one-button command for "drop an item and don't pick them up anymore"?
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Dec 20, 2016 14:20
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dpeg posted:I am replying mostly for this point, because I think it's understandable, but misguided. Yes, Crawl is losing flavour left and right: species/backgrounds removed, simplified mechanics (let me mention book amnesia one more time, but one could even consider victory dancing or item destruction as providing flavour). This is an excellent post and I appreciate it for reminding me of something that's absolutely true, but that I tend to forget as I get lost in the urge to complain. But at the same time, it's responding to something that was not my original point. In the first place, I think, or at least I hope, when people complain about flavor, they are primarily complaining about the loss of flavor for flavor's sake, not the loss of flavor in an absolute sense. Sil also has excellent flavor in an absolute sense. In fact, it might represent the highest standard of flavor in any game at all for me, since Half and Scatha executed the Tolkieniness masterfully. In a flavor sense, it gets close to the platonic ideal of a Tolkien game. And I still don't really like it. Crawl may have very good flavor itself, but people still are right to complain about the removal of things hammers and sheep. They made the game more fun to play even if they weren't strictly good design. Neither of those things was a terrible loss, however much I hate to admit it. But other sacrifices have been made on the altar of good design that were more harmful. An example I've brought up repeatedly is the dragon's call / dragon form synergy that existed for a few versions. It was obscure and almost useless to the vast majority of players, but it made for something flavorful and fun that you could try for if you knew about, and if you didn't know, it really didn't hurt you at all. There was no practical reason to remove it except for an aesthetic compulsion on the part of the developers and the game is poorer for its loss. However, the removal of things like that synergy was not actually the point of my complaint. Flavor is not the only psychological (which I mean as opposed to strictly intellectual in a challenge, or puzzle sense) factor in making a game fun. Though it might seem "low brow", most people who play RPGs want to be awesome and to do awesome things. Although in the specific case of haste, I think the intellectual aspect of more interesting design outweighs the psychological aspect of reward, casting haste was awesome. Finding a haste wand is awesome. If you cannot do those things, you cannot be quite as awesome as you could before. My personal sentiment is that the current design trend is pushing the game somewhat away from a fantastic and varied experience where you see bizarre things and do awesome poo poo to some kind of chess puzzle in the newspaper. You might feel satisfied and stimulated, but you don't feel awesome in the video game sense when you figure out that black's path to checkmate in four moves is rook to queen four. Obviously that statement is quite extreme, I don't mean it to be taken literally, but I think it shows basically my complaint about things like removing singularity, high elves, the crown of eternal torment, or the dragon form / dragon's call synergy. I stand rather firmly on the maximalist side of the equation, but strongly respect that minimalism is a necessary part of what makes Crawl an amazing game. But I think the forces of minimalism are throwing the universe out of balance, and even the Orb of ZOT may not stem the tide of chaos and destruction!
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Dec 20, 2016 16:07
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Obfuscation posted:Is there a way to have a one-button command for "drop an item and don't pick them up anymore"? No, but there is \ which allows you to choose what to pick up and not (once they're ID'd once)
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Dec 20, 2016 16:23
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Heithinn Grasida posted:.. but I think it shows basically my complaint about things like removing singularity, high elves, the crown of eternal torment, or the dragon form / dragon's call synergy. Coincidentally, I miss all of those (except the dragon stuff, but only because I rarely do summoning spells and haven't tried that in particular). e: Fhqwhgads posted:For an 'easy' combination, I have never ascended a KoBe. I think being able to engorge yourself easily for berserk was a bigger deal back then because of nausea/sickness, otherwise yeah I'd rather do a Gr or Mi if I wanted it easy :X apple fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 16:26
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| # ? May 13, 2024 22:32 |
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For an 'easy' combination, I have never ascended a KoBe. I finally have one that's really picking up some steam and am ready to start rune hunting. In general, which shield is better in the long run, resistance or reflection? http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Fhqwhgads/Fhqwhgads.txt
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Dec 20, 2016 16:26
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