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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:But that was the entire point of this movie? Like, if you don't like it because that's just not your thing I can totally understand that, but if it doesn't add to the story then what do you think the story was? When I said 'the story' I meant the big story of Star Wars that's about tragic heroes, romance, religion and societies being moved all at once. While thinking of what to write up to explain what I'm thinking, I do see how Rogue One tries to touch on those things, but I think it wasn't really successful at it and ultimately I like my Star Wars to be using the epic sweeping scope of the main movies, even like Force Awakens, even if I wasn't much into the direction that movie looks to be taking the series. If I want to see something real and grounded feeling about the small people involved in war and revolution, I don't need it to be a Star Wars movie. I didn't think that it would have been a good movie if you took it out of the Star Wars setting, but I also don't think it changed or deepened any of my interest or understanding of the six Star Wars movies that I do enjoy. Edit: Would any of us even be talking if this was Fury (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fury_(2014_film) , which I couldn't even remember the name of and had to search for 'Brad Pitt tank movie' to find). It seems to be roughly similar in some ways to Rogue One, not that me or anyone else in the world actually saw it to be sure. Edit edit: Is this the Rotten Tomatoes 'consensus' for Fury or Rogue One: "Overall, $Movie is a well-acted, suitably raw depiction of the horrors of war that offers visceral battle scenes but doesn't quite live up to its larger ambitions." Shiroc fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 09:01
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Doctor Spaceman posted:It's not that the scenes are unnecessary, it's that they didn't work and so didn't add much. Take Saw; he's nominally a revolutionary too extreme for the Alliance, but nothing he does seems any worse than Cassian shooting his informant in the back or being ordered to kill Galen. The idea of someone going to more and more extreme lengths and losing their humanity (physically and morally) in pursuit of justice is fine, but the execution was a real let down and made his scenes feel like a bit of a waste. His people started a firefight in the middle of a crowded city street, almost killing at least one child because they needed to save some crystals. Cassian being ordered to shoot Galen is done on the sly, my dude, and without the backing of Mon Mothma, implying that the general Rebel leadership would not have approved. PostNouveau posted:I liked the space fights. Gotta plug in co-ordinates or you might run into a star or planet, something said as far back as ANH, and reiterated in R1 itself when they're escaping Jedda.
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Dec 20, 2016 09:06
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Star Wars space is unlike real space. Hyperspace even more so.
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Dec 20, 2016 09:07
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Wandle Cax posted:I'm pretty sure most people complaining about "character development" and "relationships" and character "arcs" is just an attempt to sound smart. Like whats the go-to thing if you want to sound smart about a film - just start banging on about characters this and characters that, like we get it guys, you know about how there are characters in movies. No, when I'm trying to sound smart I just say "ultimately" a lot and go through my post and replace random words with synonyms from a thesaurus. That's the secret.
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Dec 20, 2016 09:13
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Shiroc posted:Edit: I don't lurk in CineD as often as I used to but Ayer had a decent following here even pre-Suicide Squad. So this probably isn't the best example.
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Dec 20, 2016 09:15
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Christ, if this had been Fury but Star Wars it would have been incredible. Fury was fantastic, and I'm not even a big fan of WW2 movies. If you haven't seen it, you should then compare it to this one if that's what they were going for. Also lol at saying people only complain about characters to sound smart. That takes a certain kind of stupidity. Great job!
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Dec 20, 2016 09:15
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Shiroc posted:When I said 'the story' I meant the big story of Star Wars that's about tragic heroes, romance, religion and societies being moved all at once. While thinking of what to write up to explain what I'm thinking, I do see how Rogue One tries to touch on those things, but I think it wasn't really successful at it and ultimately I like my Star Wars to be using the epic sweeping scope of the main movies, even like Force Awakens, even if I wasn't much into the direction that movie looks to be taking the series. But R1 didn't even try to touch on those things at all? It wasn't a movie about tragic heroes, romance, religion, or societal shifting. It was fundamentally a movie about what happens to people who aren't privileged enough that those are the problems they deal with and how they react to what the big people are doing. You're basically putting up a bunch of words about how this movie just wasn't your thing, which I already said I can totally understand. I haven't seen Fury, so I'm not gonna make comparisons, so I guess you can win this round by default. Congratulations. Alan_Shore posted:Also lol at saying people only complain about characters to sound smart. That takes a certain kind of stupidity. Great job! I didn't say they're only complaining about characters to sound smart. I said I don't think they know what character development means because they're conflating it with "has a character arc" which is a different thing. LITERALLY MY FETISH fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 09:17
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I didn't say they're only complaining about characters to sound smart. I said I don't think they know what character development means because they're conflating it with "has a character arc" which is a different thing. Think he was responding to Wandle Cax.
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Dec 20, 2016 09:50
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ungulateman posted:"luke, i am your father" I know this is from a few pages back but goddamn it annoys me that this would probably be a joke in the movie if ESB was made today. Or maybe something like "Oh really? You are? Wow.so where's all those birthday presents you owe me?"
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Dec 20, 2016 10:03
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Shiroc posted:I knew about all of the old concepts for Darth Vader's lava castle, but I thought the execution was just silly. That's a setting for a life and death duel for the soul of the galaxy, not a place to have a nobody complain to his boss. Vader in the movie would have had more impact if he only appeared at the end. The Rogue One scrubs finally did something important enough for Vader to take notice from whatever other things he was doing. This is not the fault of Rogue One (which I liked), but the characterization of Vader changed somewhat from his first appearance in Star Wars, through the various sequels, and now this film. In the first film - "A New Hope", if you must - he was almost background character within the Imperial infrastructure. He seemed more like the Emperor's enforcer, a shadowy figure who might have been only loosely connected to the Imperial authority. Note that we saw Imperial officers mocking him for his belief in the force, and Tarkin seemed to outrank him. It was only after Star Wars became a huge success, and Darth Vader became an iconic movie villain, that he seemed to get more authority within the Empire, as well as his own Star Destroyer, and more. I'm not saying this is a plot hole or anything. It's believable that after the Senate is dissolved, and open war begins with the Rebels, that Vader took on a stronger role and got more authority. But I always liked that earlier, more mysterious "enforcer Vader". In Rogue One he seems to be giving orders to Tarkin (rather than the other way around), he has his own lava-planet castle, and his own Imperial Guard. This does not contradict anything that came later, but I think it would have been cool if he just showed up at the end of the movie as this force of nature, rather than being someone who middle management has a meeting with to complain when they feel they are not getting enough credit for their superweapon...
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Dec 20, 2016 13:30
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It would've been fun if people had mentioned him repeatedly throughout the movie and then he showed up only at the end.
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Dec 20, 2016 14:07
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Shiroc posted:When I said 'the story' I meant the big story of Star Wars that's about tragic heroes, romance, religion and societies being moved all at once. While thinking of what to write up to explain what I'm thinking, I do see how Rogue One tries to touch on those things, but I think it wasn't really successful at it and ultimately I like my Star Wars to be using the epic sweeping scope of the main movies, even like Force Awakens, even if I wasn't much into the direction that movie looks to be taking the series. Which is also why I think "this movie would be worse if it weren't Star Wars" is an odd complaint. It's like the argument that Memento wouldn't be as good in chronological order; whether it is or not, that's not the movie we have. R1 was made, and exists, very firmly within the framework of Star Wars; not just in a canon sense of Dr. Evazan cameos and blue milk, but thematically as I mentioned above. Removing the Star Wars setting would make it an entirely different movie.
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Dec 20, 2016 14:37
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Whatever thr flaws of this movie, I like how much ground r1 opens up for future films and the fact they got to do a everyone dies desperation star wars makes me hopeful for the other standalone going further off piste in a way the marvel films should have but never really did.
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Dec 20, 2016 15:11
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I'm looking forward to down the road when all of the more obvious ideas have been done(Death Star plans movie, Young Han Solo, Boba Fett) and maybe they'll get into some more unconnected stories that just happen to take place in the Star Wars universe. I'd like to see them come up with a new story and a cast of characters that inhabit the world of Star Wars but aren't directly involved with the whole Republic vs. Empire conflict.
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Dec 20, 2016 15:24
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Basebf555 posted:I'm looking forward to down the road when all of the more obvious ideas have been done(Death Star plans movie, Young Han Solo, Boba Fett) and maybe they'll get into some more unconnected stories that just happen to take place in the Star Wars universe. I'd like to see them come up with a new story and a cast of characters that inhabit the world of Star Wars but aren't directly involved with the whole Republic vs. Empire conflict. This for sure. Although I'd still like to see a Boba Fett horror movie where he hunts down a bunch of bounties that he's lured into one place. It's like a slasher flick but Disney approved because he disintegrates them.
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Dec 20, 2016 15:27
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teagone posted:I just want to bring this up from a couple pages back, because I want to point out why Jyn grieving over her father's death on-screen doesn't carry any emotional impact or weight for me personally when compared to Luke's on-screen reaction when Beru and Owen died. We don't know Galen at all, and we don't really know Jyn. Their lack of character development is severely detrimental to the scene in question, which made me not really care about this scene that's supposed to be poignant. It's same reason I didn't care that Saw was so willing to accept his fate on Jedha; him tearing off his breathing apparatus in defiance of death meant nothing to me because he's a character I don't have a stake in. It's drama with no real depth. See, I feel the opposite. I never cared about Owen and Beru as a kid because Luke never really does. They were more of an obstacle to him getting off of the planet than anything he ever really showed a reaction to (and them dying offscreen lessens the connection to the characters you saw before). The progression in ANH was: Luke wants to get off of the planet Owen holds him back Droids and stuff, Obi Wan asks Luke to leave the planet Luke says no because of his aunt and uncle Aunt and uncle die offscreen Luke looks slightly plussed for a second, then says, "okay, I'm going to leave the planet and become a Jedi" Luke does not call back to his aunt and uncle dying ever again Even as a kid, if Luke doesn't care, I don't care, since he's the audience relation character. On the flip side, the last confrontation in R1 calls back to her father dying. It's a thread that keeps going through the entire movie and is an actual motivation for the character. So I care more.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:00
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Serf posted:This for sure. I think you're getting confused. Boba Fett is the joke character who gets killed by a blind man in RotJ.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:07
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Darko posted:See, I feel the opposite. I never cared about Owen and Beru as a kid because Luke never really does. They were more of an obstacle to him getting off of the planet than anything he ever really showed a reaction to (and them dying offscreen lessens the connection to the characters you saw before). (I'm being completely genuine in saying this, I don't mean it as snark) This thread is deeply fascinating for many reasons, chief amongst them being because it's constantly exposing me to opinions I never thought I'd hear, like this one. After leaving Rogue One the absolute last thing I ever thought I'd ever hear anyone say is "Jin is a more interesting character than Luke Skywalker" sassassin posted:I think you're getting confused. Boba Fett is the joke character who gets killed by a blind man in RotJ. I loved how Jango encompasses the fanboy take on Boba by being "SO BADASS" that he sires an entire army, only he gets completely and humiliating chumped just like his son. I always saw Jango as (rightly) making fun of Boba Fett fanboys and it's incredible Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 16:09
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sassassin posted:I think you're getting confused. Boba Fett is the joke character who gets killed by a blind man in RotJ. You know this. I know this. My dad knows this. But the majority of Star Wars fans think of him as this huge badass for no reason. I guess a combination of looking cool, being talked up as scary, and a bunch of old EU comics and stuff?
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Dec 20, 2016 16:09
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Waffles Inc. posted:I loved how Jango encompasses the fanboy take on Boba by being "SO BADASS" that he sires an entire army, only he gets completely and humiliating chumped just like his son. I always saw Jango as (rightly) making fun of Boba Fett fanboys and it's incredible e: Also let's not forget his sick bass.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:18
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Lord Hydronium posted:Jango actually does poo poo, though, like beat Obi-Wan to a standstill twice. Boba stakes out a garbage dump and follows a half-working beater. Jango actually clowns Obi-Wan with Boba's help. The second time in that movie that Kenobi is beaten by a child lol
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Dec 20, 2016 16:20
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Serf posted:Jango actually clowns Obi-Wan with Boba's help. The second time in that movie that Kenobi is beaten by a child lol Also I forgot about that, which means Boba accomplishes more in the movies as a kid than as a theoretically badass armored bounty hunter. e: Oh, right, the padawan when he's talking to Yoda.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:21
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Lord Hydronium posted:What was the first time? When the kid drops some knowledge on Obi-Wan about the whole "missing planet" thing.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:23
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Lord Hydronium posted:Also I forgot about that, which means Boba accomplishes more in the movies as a kid than as a theoretically badass armored bounty hunter. Yeah, I think that's pretty funny. He's more accomplished up until the point he decides to be like his dad. When we're introduced to him as an adult he's hanging around as part of an entourage of a crime lord and then Vader admonishes him for what must've been a prior gently caress-up and then he gets killed by a blind guy flailing a stick around Times got tough for poor ol' Boba, too bad his dad cursed him with a longer life than his brothers
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Dec 20, 2016 16:26
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Shiroc posted:I knew about all of the old concepts for Darth Vader's lava castle, but I thought the execution was just silly. That's a setting for a life and death duel for the soul of the galaxy, not a place to have a nobody complain to his boss. Having a subordinate come to you is a total power move, especially if its way out in the middle of nowhere. "Can we holo-conference later?" "Nah, come down to the lava castle. 4 o'clock works for me." "Uhhhh, I- "Great, see you then." *hangs up space phone* *goes back to reading stock reports in space newspaper*
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Dec 20, 2016 16:26
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Cash Monet posted:Having a subordinate come to you is a total power move, especially if its way out in the middle of nowhere. Vader's castle was pretty cool I thought--a small speck of something that could have been interesting had they stayed there for more than 90 seconds. And yeah I thought it was funny that Krennic was probably there about as long as we see him there in "real time" Like with every scene with Saw, it would've been way cooler had we seen more of it.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:28
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Cash Monet posted:*hangs up space phone* I like the idea of Vader's meditation chamber unsealing, cracking open like some bizarre mechanical egg, and the sound of "Mad Money" with Jim Cramer comes booming out.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:30
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These films have had way too many planets/settings in general. In ANH we had Tatooine, Death Star, Yavin. ESB had Hoth, Dagobah, Cloud City. ROJ had Tatooine, Endor, Death Star, with a brief jaunt back to Dagobah. Generally speaking, these settings aligned with the films' act structure. Rogue One had...Galen Erso's farming planet, the asteroid base where Captain Whatever kills that guy, Jedha, the Death Star, the Research Facility, Lava Planet, Yavin, Scarif. As a result, the settings have very little character of their own.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:44
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Mechafunkzilla posted:These films have had way too many planets/settings in general. Now you're just making stuff up - each planet had a very distinct and very deliberate atmosphere and feel. ...and that's when I noticed your name. Goddammit, I fell into that trap.
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Dec 20, 2016 17:02
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Rogue One had...Galen Erso's farming planet, the asteroid base where Captain Whatever kills that guy, Jedha, the Death Star, the Research Facility, Lava Planet, Yavin, Scarif. As a result, the settings have very little character of their own. It's all subjective, so I'm not trying to discount your opinion, just offering an alternate one.
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Dec 20, 2016 17:03
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Except for The Force Awakens, the number of planets per Star War tends to increase.
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Dec 20, 2016 17:06
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I didn't follow a ton of pre-release info about the movie, and so going in I halfway thought/halfway expected it to be a complete and total heist movie and a lot of the running time would be a grand tour of exotic locales while putting together a crack team to steal some plans, so the planet hopping was pretty cool I thought, but I wish there was more of it or that the locations were more exotic Yet again we got not-Tatooine, and then a beachier Naboo
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Dec 20, 2016 17:13
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Initial Rogue One thoughts: I cannot remember the name of a single character in the entire drat movie. This should probably say something. Visually, though, utterly spectacular. While I could type for a while, my review will be summed up as 'Halo Reach: The Movie'
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Dec 20, 2016 17:31
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Hot tip for trueley hard core starwar fans, if you google the name of the tentacle monster the second result is Hux/Ren slash.
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Dec 20, 2016 17:36
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I'm bothered by Jyn's pearls. Her mother gives them to her, says they'll keep her safe. Blind Guy comments on the pearls. Then they are forgotten for the rest of the film.
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Dec 20, 2016 17:56
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Adaptabullshit posted:I'm bothered by Jyn's pearls. Her mother gives them to her, says they'll keep her safe. Blind Guy comments on the pearls. Then they are forgotten for the rest of the film. It's a Kyber Crystal she's given, not pearls. That said, yeah, they drop the "it powers a Jedi's lightsaber and also the Death Star" thing and then it ends up being just meaningless fluff really.
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Dec 20, 2016 18:00
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ImpAtom posted:It's a Kyber Crystal she's given, not pearls. That said, yeah, they drop the "it powers a Jedi's lightsaber and also the Death Star" thing and then it ends up being just meaningless fluff really. Given that the mechanism behind the Death Star firing and what powers lightsabers was never mentioned before in the movies, it's fascinating that we've now got a direct connection The Jedi weapons and the Death Star are powered by the same source. Alderaan was destroyed with a lightsaber.
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Dec 20, 2016 18:10
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Waffles Inc. posted:Given that the mechanism behind the Death Star firing and what powers lightsabers was never mentioned before in the movies, it's fascinating that we've now got a direct connection Fun fact: The Darksaber project mentioned when they're going through the Big Ol' USB Drive Of Evil is actually a Death Star shaped like a giant lightsaber. Such is the way of the Star Wars EU.
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Dec 20, 2016 18:12
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Slight correction, it's just the GUN of the Death Star, shaped like a lightsaber, they specifically mention in the book somewhere that they just need the gun part, not the whole spacestation bit  Although i did kinda like how they shoot the Death Star not at full power, showing that even if you don't need to blow up the whole drat planet, it's still a scary piece of tech that'll wreck your day with the force of a drat nuke going off.
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Dec 20, 2016 18:54
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I didn't say they're only complaining about characters to sound smart. I said I don't think they know what character development means because they're conflating it with "has a character arc" which is a different thing. The principal heroes in this movie lack both development and compelling character arcs. The second would not necessarily be a problem is the first was not also a problem, but what we get are thin characters who race around to hit their marks in time to keep the plot moving. It's okay though, this is apparently on purpose because this is a movie about little (boring) people and not important (interesting) people, so it's fine that they're almost completely hollow. It's not like this is a made up complaint that only shows up on here, it's a common theme in the professional reviews of the movie: "But it also ensures that "Rogue One" fails to define its liveliest characters in ways that would make them pop..."Rogue One" is so devoted to its multilayered, fast-moving plot that it can't afford to give its characters the breathing space they need..." - Roger Ebert "Is that an awful lot of new characters to keep track of? Yes it is, and Rogue One largely fails to establish them as distinct and three-dimensional. Jones and Luna are both intriguing in the principal roles, but their backstories are scant, and the central relationship between the two is never adequately developed, a shortcoming that becomes more significant as the film cycles toward its somewhat surprising conclusion....The movie’s relatively shallow characterizations are in part a byproduct of the overall pace of the script" - Chris Orr, the Atlantic And these are overall positive or mixed reviews. Even people who like it think it does a poor job of drawing these characters or convincing people that they should care what happens to them, beyond just a general sense of human empathy.
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Dec 20, 2016 19:07
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