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BROCK LESBIAN posted:Isn't the list of cool trends Black people -> Gay people -> Women people -> White boys -> White men -> Rappin grannies? You gotta work sassy talking pets on disney channel sitcoms in there somewhere
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Dec 21, 2016 00:04
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:You gotta work sassy talking pets on disney channel sitcoms in there somewhere I was spending time with my niece and nephew one day and found out there was a show called Dog With A Blog and it changed my life.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:11
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BROCK LESBIAN posted:I was spending time with my niece and nephew one day and found out there was a show called Dog With A Blog and it changed my life. Don't hate, that dog did some legit grounds-eye citizen journalism during Occupy
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Dec 21, 2016 00:19
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Going back to fashion for a minute, you can see a really interesting real-time exchange and evolution of fashion by observing the trans and drag communities. A lot of trans women simply can't wear an average woman's outfit and look good because we're taller, we have wider shoulders, etc. Trans women often borrow and modify techniques from drag to help feminize their appearance from extreme makeup contouring to body padding and clothing selection and so on. Glam and low fashion queens will then take inspiration from these looks when designing new costumes and the cycle repeats. Eventually something leaks out of the loop and everyone decides some random celeb invented a look that had been evolving back and forth between queens and trans women for years. One of the biggies that's especially relevant here is the makeup contouring techniques poc queens and trans women use to feminize their faces. Black trans women have taken contouring to an insane level because, surprise, facial feminization surgery is less accessible to poc. Queens see what's working for trans girls and then take that up to 11. It's pretty cool and (to answer a question someone asked me ages ago) it's part of why I love drag and think people who get uptight about drag being offensive to trans people (looking at you Jenny Boylan) don't fully appreciate the trans experience. Edit:just want to say this was a phone post and autocorrect was fighting me the whole way so if there's anything that seems off phrasing wise in this post that's why. My phone really wants "trans" to be "trains" for example. The MUMPSorceress fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 00:30
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I feel like hostility between Trans/Drag is something you mostly find in upper class lgbt culture where they experience enough acceptance from the wider culture to not interact very much. I spent a pretty decent chunk of time immersed in "lower class" trans and drag culture in south Florida and could talk a bit about it from an outsiders perspective.
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Dec 21, 2016 01:39
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Schizotek posted:I feel like hostility between Trans/Drag is something you mostly find in upper class lgbt culture where they experience enough acceptance from the wider culture to not interact very much. I spent a pretty decent chunk of time immersed in "lower class" trans and drag culture in south Florida and could talk a bit about it from an outsiders perspective. LGBT youth as well, but that usually comes down to not knowing their history and I don't hold them responsible for that. I know that, as someone who's only exposure to queer culture growing up was through media designed for or co-opted by a mainstream het/cis audience, I'd have lapped up the idea that Rocky Horror and drag culture were toxic if tumblr offered it up to me because I didn't know how to see them through the context of my own culture and community. That's why I thought it was pretty cool that Lavern Cox took the role of Frankenfurter. It reclaimed the role for queer people in the face of a lot selling out for straight-cis respectability.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:00
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Don't hate, that dog did some legit grounds-eye citizen journalism during Occupy Holy crap I'm getting old.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:25
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there wolf posted:LGBT youth as well, but that usually comes down to not knowing their history and I don't hold them responsible for that. I know that, as someone who's only exposure to queer culture growing up was through media designed for or co-opted by a mainstream het/cis audience, I'd have lapped up the idea that Rocky Horror and drag culture were toxic if tumblr offered it up to me because I didn't know how to see them through the context of my own culture and community. There's a long history of gay men trying to steal trans identity by claiming people as drag queens (right back to Stonewall even) so it's not surprising that some people become overly hostile toward it, but it's short-sighted to see the entire artform as trans-hostile because a few assholes can't stop trying to claim All The Queer Stuff. Laverne Cox is doing amazing work just by existing in the public consciousness. She's made a whole bunch of people aware that transwomen and trans poc exist, and through Orange is the New Black she's got a bunch of people who otherwise probably wouldn't give a poo poo empathizing with that viewpoint. It's a very much oversanitized view of what the trans poc experience is, but it's a start! Good drag parodies all the ridiculous constructions of what femininity (or masculinity, there's drag kings too!) is that we have in our culture and turns it into a performance that brings people together. I don't understand a person who lives through all the assumptions people make of them based on their appearance/gender identity and comes out with the lesson "drag is bad because people assume I'm a queen" rather than "assumptions are bad because non-queers treat queens and trans people badly and like they're the same thing." Buncha trans Carltons.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:30
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Good drag parodies all the ridiculous constructions of what femininity (or masculinity, there's drag kings too!) I know! And I have a bullshit story about race-relations in the queer community about them if negrotown is still down with this detour into the 'artist' neighborhood that will be serve as the Normandy beach for future gentrification.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:46
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there wolf posted:I know! And I have a bullshit story about race-relations in the queer community about them if negrotown is still down with this detour into the 'artist' neighborhood that will be serve as the Normandy beach for future gentrification. Do it, it's important to be reminded that there's so much more to the black experience than the straight cis black male experience. And I'd feel remiss if I didn't defend my boy Carlton, because he did get things eventually, he just needed to be yelled at a lot first. Much like some goons I know  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bluQNcAjOA
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Dec 21, 2016 04:03
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Do it, it's important to be reminded that there's so much more to the black experience than the straight cis black male experience. And I'd feel remiss if I didn't defend my boy Carlton, because he did get things eventually, he just needed to be yelled at a lot first. Much like some goons I know I have every DVD set of Fresh Prince and now I feel a strong urge to watch it again after I finish Revolution (aka: Crackers in the Apocalypse part 12). The only POC is a duplicitous bad guy with anger problems who disowns his son for not wanting to be a wanton murderer. Because of course. Has there ever been a positive depiction of black people in a post-apocalypse scenario? Now I'm kinda genuinely curious because I'd watch/read the poo poo out of that. And yes, please post about intersectional topics as long as it links into black experience somehow. If we can talk about comic books with black characters we can talk about intersections between the queer and black communities (it's most of what I post about  ).
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Dec 21, 2016 04:09
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:I have every DVD set of Fresh Prince and now I feel a strong urge to watch it again after I finish Revolution (aka: Crackers in the Apocalypse part 12). The only POC is a duplicitous bad guy with anger problems who disowns his son for not wanting to be a wanton murderer. Because of course. Has there ever been a positive depiction of black people in a post-apocalypse scenario? Now I'm kinda genuinely curious because I'd watch/read the poo poo out of that. Book of Eli? Edit: I am Legend (Will Smith movie edition) also TheDon01 fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 04:13
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TheDon01 posted:Book of Eli? This was my thought as well. Edit: As a main character at least.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:16
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:I have every DVD set of Fresh Prince and now I feel a strong urge to watch it again after I finish Revolution (aka: Crackers in the Apocalypse part 12). The only POC is a duplicitous bad guy with anger problems who disowns his son for not wanting to be a wanton murderer. Because of course. Has there ever been a positive depiction of black people in a post-apocalypse scenario? Now I'm kinda genuinely curious because I'd watch/read the poo poo out of that. Possibly Michonne in The Walking Dead?
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Dec 21, 2016 04:33
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Who What Now posted:Possibly Michonne in The Walking Dead? I think most of the black regular characters (I'm not up to date with the current season so things may have changed) have been portrayed positively on TWD.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:42
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Ben in Night of the Living Dead.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:53
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Red Mundus posted:Ben in Night of the Living Dead. in this vein, here is a great article about the casting of Duane Jones in NotLD, and how he changed the role to reflect who he was as an educated black man. quote:While still earthy and capable, Ben acquired an at once intense and understated quality that Jones brought to the role. According to the late Karl Hardman: “His [Ben’s] dialogue was that of a lower class/uneducated person. Duane Jones was a very well-educated man. He was fluent in a number of languages.” A B.A. graduate of the University of Pittsburgh, Jones had dabbled in writing, painting and music, studied in Norway and Paris, and was completing an M.A. in Communications at NYU between “Night” shoots. “Duane simply refused to do the role as it was written. As I recall, I believe that Duane himself upgraded his own dialogue to reflect how he felt the character should present himself.” For a movie that has inspired literally hundreds of zombie movies in its wake, creating tropes and common themes that make it look very plain and simple now, Night was a pretty tremendous piece of outsider art. 1960s Pittsburgh isn't exactly Hollywood, and there's an alternate universe somewhere where Night is only a half-remembered cult movie instead of the classic that it is. (that universe probably lacks The Walking Dead, let alone every single other zombie work from the last 30 years or so)
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Dec 21, 2016 05:21
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Is that a different thing from the thing where some guys wear multiple layers of shorts/pants? The layers indicate how many realms of power he has contested. E: Despite being a bi dude I have no idea what Voguing is except that this guy is really good at it: 
Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 05:24
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Ok then! So I went to a woman's college and we had two queer groups on campus, the bigger and whiter LBT club, and the black lesbian caucus. There was some overlap between the clubs, and every year they'd do a joint fundraiser for an LGBTQIA related charity of choice. One year the Caucus brought up the idea of doing a drag king review; they had a group in mind, had picked some dates, and done pretty much all the setup already so the LBT was happy to just go along with it. The chosen group was largely POC, mostly studs, and the show was a big hit. (Memorable bits include a killer Usher impersonator, Pitbull making up facts about Miami when his music cut out, and an angsty nu-metal song redone as a love duet and dedicated to "all the white girls in the audience") So they got invited back the next year for another show and again it's a hit and money is made. The third year the group asks if they could be paid for the gig since they do incur some cost putting it on, and for about a month that was seen as reasonable and student events was looking for room there was in the budget. Then the LBT starts complaining. Why are we paying for something that's for charity? What about other drag kind groups? This is a joint event; Caucus can't just take it over! The professional group gets axed and is replaced with an amateur group that happened to be made up of students and friends of students who'd been together for about three months. By year four the drag show was mostly just cis-het women dressed as "drag queens" and doing skits from Drag Race. And just to balance the circle, the show finally ended a few years later when the LBT formally protested against it for being trans-misogynist. The Caucus stopped doing joint events with the LBT after getting pushed out, and in general just kind of hosed off to do their own thing. I should tap the alum tree and see if they're still around. They were fighting declining membership pretty hard, even as the college overall was getting more diverse.
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Dec 21, 2016 05:51
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:I have every DVD set of Fresh Prince and now I feel a strong urge to watch it again after I finish Revolution (aka: Crackers in the Apocalypse part 12). The only POC is a duplicitous bad guy with anger problems who disowns his son for not wanting to be a wanton murderer. Because of course. Has there ever been a positive depiction of black people in a post-apocalypse scenario? Now I'm kinda genuinely curious because I'd watch/read the poo poo out of that. Agent 355 was pretty badass in Y: The Last Man.
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Dec 21, 2016 06:37
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Has there ever been a positive depiction of black people in a post-apocalypse scenario? For post-apocalyptic TV: Kurdy in Jeremiah. Hawkins in Jericho.
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Dec 21, 2016 06:54
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:There's a long history of gay men trying to steal trans identity by claiming people as drag queens (right back to Stonewall even) so it's not surprising that some people become overly hostile toward it, but it's short-sighted to see the entire artform as trans-hostile because a few assholes can't stop trying to claim All The Queer Stuff. Your derails are the best derails.
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Dec 21, 2016 07:52
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Just tossing in a little reading material: http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-venus-effect/
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Dec 21, 2016 11:03
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Kubrick posted:For post-apocalyptic TV: Haven't seen Jeremiah, but Hawkins had plenty of that duplicity and anger problems stuff going on. He was still quite a stereotype.
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Dec 21, 2016 14:23
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Does nerdy sci-fi that takes place in a universe after some distant-past Earth cataclysm count?
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Dec 21, 2016 15:55
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Does nerdy sci-fi that takes place in a universe after some distant-past Earth cataclysm count? Are we about to mourn the death of Ron Glass?
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Dec 21, 2016 15:56
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Are we about to mourn the death of Ron Glass? Maybe. 
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Dec 21, 2016 15:57
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Does positive depiction exclude all villains, or just shoddily written ones? Aunt Entity is probably one of the best characters to come out of Mad Max, even if she was an antagonist.
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Dec 21, 2016 16:16
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there wolf posted:Does positive depiction exclude all villains, or just shoddily written ones? Aunt Entity is probably one of the best characters to come out of Mad Max, even if she was an antagonist. Mostly I have a problem with black characters built out of lovely stereotypes, so the latter really.
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Dec 21, 2016 16:45
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Mostly I have a problem with black characters built out of lovely stereotypes, so the latter really. The role was supposedly written Tina Turner in mind before they'd even asked if she'd do it. I really like the idea of George Miller sitting down, pen in hand, to think "how would Tina Turner run a lawless distopia in the isolated wastes?"
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Dec 21, 2016 17:00
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there wolf posted:The role was supposedly written Tina Turner in mind before they'd even asked if she'd do it. I really like the idea of George Miller sitting down, pen in hand, to think "how would Tina Turner run a lawless distopia in the isolated wastes?" Seems fine to me. The sort of villains I'm talking about tend to have a list of traits sort of like this:
You just see this guy over and over in so many movies and shows and it gets annoying. Hell, in the case I'm talking about (Revolution) the same actor played a similar villain in Breaking Bad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giancarlo_Esposito) and while he had slightly more depth in that show, he still mostly checked all the boxes I list above. There's lots of stereotyped roles for white people too, but what I think is worth noticing is that there's a greater diversity of what stereotypes white characters slot into, whereas there's only a couple archetypes that most black characters slot into. A lot of this is, probably, the total lack of exposure most Hollywood people have to any kind of black experience and TB is a brave soul for dedicating her career to fighting against this issue.
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Dec 21, 2016 17:32
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What do you think the split is on stereotypes that are actually about white people vs. archetypes so consistently cast as white that the race gets encoded into them? Like rednecks which are a stereotype of a certain kind of white culture, vs. the useless damsel in distress love interest?
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Dec 21, 2016 18:06
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there wolf posted:What do you think the split is on stereotypes that are actually about white people vs. archetypes so consistently cast as white that the race gets encoded into them? Like rednecks which are a stereotype of a certain kind of white culture, vs. the useless damsel in distress love interest? Rather than make conjecture of my own, I'd like to hear what TB has to say on this one since she has direct experience, but my gut feel is it's some of both.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:31
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Chiwetel Ejiofor in both Serenity and Children of Men, both were unique and sympathetic.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:43
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Neurolimal posted:Chiwetel Ejiofor in both Serenity and Children of Men, both were unique and sympathetic. He's also going to be Peter in a movie about Mary Magdalene coming out next year. He was also one of the higher-ups in NASA in The Martian (although naturally Jeff Daniels was the actual head of NASA in that).
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Dec 21, 2016 20:16
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Neurolimal posted:Chiwetel Ejiofor in both Serenity and Children of Men, both were unique and sympathetic. His character in Serenity just didn't make any god damned sense, but that move was extremely bad. Him in Kinky Boots is one of my favorite roles ever.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:25
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Seems fine to me. The sort of villains I'm talking about tend to have a list of traits sort of like this: I would respectfully disagree about Esposito's role as Gustavo in Breaking Bad though. He was one of my favorite characters in the series and I felt like he was very different character than most black actors would get typecast into.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:35
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Panfilo posted:I think perhaps part of the problem with black typecast villains is that the writers are playing into the anxieties of white audiences about black men. So the character becomes this exaggerated vision of what an 18-35 year old white guy would find in intimidating. While white villains can be cunning, well connected, skilled etc black villains often seem to be much more physical. Like I said, I think Gustavo had more depth than some of Esposito's other roles, but he was still definitely a guy who let the people he considered family be harmed by the cartel to make his way up, and he simultaneously trusted no one and screwed everyone. He resorted to violence easily, even if he was less personally physical about it. It definitely comes off less 2d/stereotypey in a show as good as Breaking Bad (last season aside), but the pattern is still definitely there.
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Dec 21, 2016 21:47
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Some of those seem like general villain stereotypes. I won't argue about black characters in general needing to be fleshed out. I've seen way too many movies and shows where they've had the black characters fade into the background.
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Dec 21, 2016 23:01
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biracial bear for uncut posted:He's also going to be Peter in a movie about Mary Magdalene coming out next year. Chiwetel may be singlehandedly creating a rule where having a soft spoken/well-intentioned black antagonist played by Chiwetel is racist. The solution: a reverse buddy cop movie where The Rock is a cunning political mastermind and Chiwetel is his bruiser bodyguard.
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Dec 21, 2016 23:04
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