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"Kill all white people" is very obviously a troll, but I admit that there are people who misunderstand it for social cue reasons, which is fine, but that there are also people who will respond and demonstrate exactly what their level of ignorance is regarding race and privilege, which is honestly useful in determining how to engage with them. Either way, I think white people should stop saying it entirely, but that if a person of color says it in response to posting an article about racism, then white people should grow the gently caress up and shut their goddamn mouths unless its to offer support.
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Dec 21, 2016 01:43
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I mean this topic does a great job explaining why the far-right is so dominant on the internet. if i'm an impressionable white teen and i hear "kill all white people", i'm going to shitpost on 4chan and post trump memes. Not saying it's right or justified, but more that it's what is actually happening
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Dec 21, 2016 01:48
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Kilano posted:I mean this topic does a great job explaining why the far-right is so dominant on the internet. This makes sense to me up to the point where people are self-obsessed adolescents and I legitimately do not understand how it extends beyond that.
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Dec 21, 2016 01:50
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Bicyclops posted:This makes sense to me up to the point where people are self-obsessed adolescents and I legitimately do not understand how it extends beyond that. You don't understand how white teenage boys are going to rebel against a liberal message that tells them they should die?
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Dec 21, 2016 01:55
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LinYutang posted:Also, liberal tactics of maintaining orthodoxies with shaming or social exclusion will really only work among their in-groups, like in academia or their internet subcultures; a certain small number of people will feel good about it, since adopting a self-effacing bias can promote feelings of collective identification. But the far right can't be silenced or intimidated by liberals weaponizing moral shame against them. That is bullshit though. Lots of social norms that used to be universal are universally mocked now.
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Dec 21, 2016 01:55
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Kilano posted:You don't understand how white teenage boys are going to rebel against a liberal message that tells them they should die? I don't understand how they don't grow out of that rebellion.
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Dec 21, 2016 01:57
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Bicyclops posted:I don't understand how they don't grow out of that rebellion. It's because the right has a safe space for white nationalism and bigotry. We push them into seeking out these places where they are accepted and feel welcome. All the news and social media they consume into adulthood reinforce these beliefs. Now you've got a voter who blames minorities and liberals for all their problems and think immigrants are here to steal their women.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:00
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Kilano posted:It's because the right has a safe space for white nationalism and bigotry. We push them into seeking out these places where they are accepted and feel welcome. All the news and social media they consume into adulthood reinforce these beliefs. Teenagers overwhelmingly can't vote, and those that can don't.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:02
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porfiria posted:Teenagers overwhelmingly can't vote, and those that can don't. But they can post on Leslie Jones' twitter account
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Dec 21, 2016 02:04
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Kilano posted:It's because the right has a safe space for white nationalism and bigotry. We push them into seeking out these places where they are accepted and feel welcome. All the news and social media they consume into adulthood reinforce these beliefs. The flip side of this is that you can't actually win here because they ALWAYS have this option, and they can just keep raising the demands more and more no matter what. Which is a thing that happens in a lot of online communities, constant threats where that particular side is constantly deciding to define what can or can't be said before they declare their white rights whatever and derail whatever conversation was supposed to happen.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:04
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Bicyclops posted:This makes sense to me up to the point where people are self-obsessed adolescents and I legitimately do not understand how it extends beyond that. Many people don't advance beyond that stage (something that should be obvious from interacting with actual humans ever), and many people don't care for political and cultural theory or have more pressing concerns. You're expressing shock and dismay that people aren't responding favorably to or expressing interest in learning more about an ideology/worldview that encourages its most vocal proponents to make statements telling people they should die due to their race and suggesting that people should know to reflexively dismiss such expressions as meaningless/harmless noise (if done by white people) or as something to be actively supported and encouraged (if done by a POC in response to something as inflamatory as a news article). I would suggest that this is more indicative of a need on your part to re-examine your expectations of others (and how they can be persuaded) than anything else.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:05
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The flip side of this is that you can't actually win here because they ALWAYS have this option, and they can just keep raising the demands more and more no matter what. Which is a thing that happens in a lot of online communities, constant threats where that particular side is constantly deciding to define what can or can't be said before they declare their white rights whatever and derail whatever conversation was supposed to happen. I think it's works the same way voting strategy works. You have a majority of the population that isn't going to be swayed one way or the other. Then you have people who haven't made up their mind yet, and based on the things they hear (news and social media) are going to go down one path or the other. I think if you can stop even a minority of these people from becoming "alt right", it's worth not making comments like this
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Dec 21, 2016 02:09
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:That is bullshit though. Lots of social norms that used to be universal are universally mocked now. That wasn't achieved by shaming people expressing those social norms like, if MLK, Huey Newton, and Malcolm X just wrote on bulletin boards how they thought people were better than this, they would have achieved far less progress
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Dec 21, 2016 02:09
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porfiria posted:Teenagers overwhelmingly can't vote, and those that can don't. a movement that loves to say "just wait until the conservatives die of old age" should not be saying "who cares about the youth, they dont vote"
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Dec 21, 2016 02:10
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Neurolimal posted:That wasn't achieved by shaming people expressing those social norms Yes, it literally was. That's the core function of nonviolent protest.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:16
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Yes, it literally was. That's the core function of nonviolent protest. Except that there was more to the civil rights movement than nonviolence. You are discounting a lot of important historical figures with this cold take.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:19
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Yes, it literally was. That's the core function of nonviolent protest. Yep. It's to get Suburban McWhitelady to proclaim "heavens! They put the dogs on that young man for just walking down the street!", clutching her pearls and making it A Thing to their congressman.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:21
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Neurolimal posted:Except that there was more to the civil rights movement than nonviolence. You are discounting a lot of important historical figures with this cold take. It's one tactic of many. It also worked well with the target demographic.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:22
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Talmonis posted:It's one tactic of many. It also worked well with the target demographic. One tactic of many is a large difference from hinging your entire efforts on shame. It was effective because MLK was a great orator who sold people on the idea that there should be no sides just equality, and because Newton acted as the "bad cop"; accept the nonviolent movement, or risk setting off a powder keg. Getting pop stars to talk about how racist and sexist someone is just won't cut it alone.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:26
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Neurolimal posted:Except that there was more to the civil rights movement than nonviolence. You are discounting a lot of important historical figures with this cold take. Are you saying that nonviolent protest was not an effective, primary method of the civil rights movement?
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Dec 21, 2016 02:26
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Neurolimal posted:Getting pop stars to talk about how racist and sexist someone is just won't cut it alone. No, but it's a start. We don't have a leaderful movement yet, we have BLM and the dregs of Occupy. Widespread, coordinated protest doesn't show up overnight, and mass action was a thing before MLK was involved on the national scale.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:30
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Are you saying that nonviolent protest was not an effective, primary method of the civil rights movement? No. Active resistance was equally important, and nothing would have been accomplished without it. Dr. Fishopolis posted:No, but it's a start. We don't have a leaderful movement yet, we have BLM and the dregs of Occupy. Widespread, coordinated protest doesn't show up overnight, and mass action was a thing before MLK was involved on the national scale. Point was that shame did not end vile social norms, as was claimed.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:33
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C. Everett Koop posted:If we killed all white males it would solve a great number of our problems. no SHUT THE gently caress UP IM VOTING FOR [Insert Batshit Populist here] SO NAHH. you cant criticize me now  Bicyclops posted:"Kill all white people" is very obviously a troll, but I admit that there are people who misunderstand it for social cue reasons, which is fine, but that there are also people who will respond and demonstrate exactly what their level of ignorance is regarding race and privilege, which is honestly useful in determining how to engage with them. are you trying to say you support white genocide bicyclops? what if i said "Kill all black people" huh? BornAPoorBlkChild fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 02:37
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Don't trigger those sensitive white boys!
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Dec 21, 2016 02:44
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This topic is too edgy for me i gotta go back to my jar of mayo
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Dec 21, 2016 02:47
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Neurolimal posted:No. Active resistance was equally important, and nothing would have been accomplished without it. The Civil rights movement included active resistance. That resistance just wasn't violent. The two are not mutually exclusive. If your point was that revolution is equally important, the course of history would bear that out. However, the government isn't susceptible to revolution here. It just doesn't work in advanced societies with strong central governments.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:14
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Hollywood posted:The Civil rights movement included active resistance. That resistance just wasn't violent. The two are not mutually exclusive. Most people would say that toting guns with the threat of violence if the cops pulled anything around them is, in fact, violent resistance. There's more than just revolution and shame.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:19
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Neurolimal posted:Most people would say that toting guns with the threat of violence if the cops pulled anything around them is, in fact, violent resistance. That is, and it formed a very small portion of the civil rights movement that opponents disproportionately focused on and that ultimately did more harm than good. What great societal modification came from it?
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Dec 21, 2016 03:27
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~harming the cause~
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Dec 21, 2016 03:48
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Neurolimal posted:That wasn't achieved by shaming people expressing those social norms The MLK led movement was concerned about alienating white supporters with anti-white rhetoric. Hosea Williams, one of King's right-hand men, coined the term "reverse racism" as a result.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:00
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Hollywood posted:That is, and it formed a very small portion of the civil rights movement that opponents disproportionately focused on and that ultimately did more harm than good. What great societal modification came from it? holy poo poo
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Dec 21, 2016 04:18
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Neurolimal posted:holy poo poo I qualified that with the word "great." It had an effect, just not one that moved the cause forward.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:29
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:The MLK led movement was concerned about alienating white supporters with anti-white rhetoric. Hosea Williams, one of King's right-hand men, coined the term "reverse racism" as a result.  all you've done in this thread so far is post white nationalist talking points keep it up
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Dec 21, 2016 04:33
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Kilano posted:I think if you can stop even a minority of these people from becoming "alt right", it's worth not making comments like this That is pretty much the reason the alt right dominates so much of the internet. The constant threat that if everyone doesn't use their terms that they will run off and heil hitler or whatever.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:33
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Hollywood posted:I qualified that with the word "great." It had an effect, just not one that moved the cause forward. Neurolimal posted:holy poo poo
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Dec 21, 2016 04:35
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this person has ad space on the site. this is Exhibit A
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Dec 21, 2016 04:46
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I don't get what the issue is here. My point is that nonviolence makes more sense and is more effective in modern times. History, admittedly still written by white people, did not judge self defense well. No matter what race you are, it isn't a good idea to meet force with force, even symbolically, like that. You can't literally fight the government. I fully understand the reasons behind it, I just question the efficacy.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:46
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hey look it's adam curtis' autistic nephew
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Dec 21, 2016 04:55
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SunAndSpring posted:In the recent years, I've noticed that the right-wing has a clearly dominant position when it comes to the use of the internet to sway opinions. Right-wing people are able to form effective brigades to do things like manipulate online polls, negatively review media that disagrees with their views, game systems like Reddit and Google to get right-wing opinions front-page coverage, and more. They also seem to be better at using computers in general, what with the prevalence of bots and DDOSing as tactics used by internet right-wingers. Yet, I haven't noticed any sort of counter-response from the left; nothing is done when, say, alt-right trolls review-bomb a video because it implies that black people are human and not some variety of orc. None of this is really true. Brigading Reddit at this point is not really a sign of dominance, for starters. It's a sign of brigading Reddit. Reddit is nothing compared to YouTube, Facebook, or Twitter. Those latter three things are also much more intellectually contested by just about any metric or comparison point. Online polls and negative media reviews are useless to begin with. DDoSing is not a sign of being "better at using computers," and it's difficult to always attribute this to conservatives anyway. Ever heard of a script kiddie? "Left" or "Not Insane" information sources on the web tend to be more subtle and professional (or at least less cartoonishly frothing at the mouth). The right has Fox, Drudge, Breitbart, and the WSJ. The left has... Most everything else, to one degree or another, and several prominent news sources. The New York Times is more searched than Drudge, Breitbart, or the WSJ. MSNBC is nearly the match of Fox News in that regard. Lastly, there is no need to "contest" the right-wing or alt-right on a blow-for-blow basis, because there is nothing really to contest. Should leftists be retaliating with doxes, DDOSes, or utterly insignificant online poll rushes? I think Weedhitler bonerlord has that last one covered. Name Change fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 05:00
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dont even fink about it posted:DDoSing is not a sign of being "better at using computers," and it's difficult to always attribute this to conservatives anyway. Ever heard of a script kiddie? Not even that. DDOSs these days are a measure of how much money you have to rent a botnet.
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Dec 21, 2016 05:28
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