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thefakenews posted:Unlike a lot of people in the thread, I have played a bunch of Kingdom Death. In my experience trap cards are arbitrary bullshit. Especially the first time you encounter tham and get a party wipe without warning. Well the basic premise seems to be a game that's punishingly difficult and tedious and altogether dreary to match the setting. To be fair, there's nothing stopping players from just starting the hunt over again after a party wipe with the same villagers, but that'd be against the RAW of the game. Just like Darkest Dungeon and XCOM too, it's also important to make sure there's enough spare bodies at a reasonable level to replace anyone who dies. However, A: getting new, more experienced villagers requires random rolling (and potentially risking someone who's at least moderately trained up) and B: training villagers on hunts can be risky since they become only as useful as their equipment until they acquire specialties which they wont obtain after a few hunts.
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Dec 20, 2016 22:37
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dr_ether posted:But unlike a D&D game or some other rogue like, you are building up an entire settlement of characters. So while yes, a TPK can and will happen, it should not be the end of the world because the game is set up to encourage you to develop as many survivors as possible. This is well and good in theory, but if you get a few bad rolls for making babies (ending up with dead parents), a character or two with bad injuries and then an unexpected tpk then you can easily end up screwed. Especially if your remaining survivors haven't got much in the way of advances. Some of this can be learned and avoided with mastery of the system, but that just means having to start the game a bunch of times (or just deciding to do a hunt or event over - which is fair enough, but seems to defeat the point of what the game offers). This all, of course, is in the context that I think the actual monster fights themselves are pretty boring, often repetitive and frequently boil down to just lining up your one best attack and hoping to roll high. So having to start over just means more boring fights, but without any of the gear or fighting arts that at least adds some degree of interest (although there sure are a lot of basically useless fighting arts).
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Dec 20, 2016 22:56
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Xelkelvos posted:Well the basic premise seems to be a game that's punishingly difficult and tedious and altogether dreary to match the setting. But as I have said, there are a number of innovations that mean newly created survivors actually start with out better than the initial survivors. Bonus stats, or inheriting weapon proficiency from parents. So yes, it will suck in the short term the loss of certain survivors, but the game is very much about developing the entire settlement so you can reach milestones that outweigh those losses. And as for RAW, well you can just play the game where there is no permadeath. That is an option detailed in the back of the main book. Or you can play a game of 7 Swords, with just 7, powerful, survivors. Or play the variant People of the Skull campaign. Even play it as a GM run campaign.
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Dec 20, 2016 23:01
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'You should try harder.' I said. 'Game has bad construction. We had no chances.' Vlaada answered. He was thinking, watching cards, character boards, dices. 'If I may suggest... Well, in my opinion you have problem here Ignacy. When players got wounded, they loose skills. This is bad.' he said. 'Are you kidding? This is awesome! It's like Die hard! You got wounded, you are bleeding, you have broken leg, you feel pain all over your body, but you can not give up, you need to fight!' That was exactly what I wanted. You got wounded, you loose skills, you have to try harder. 'It is like Bruce Willis, right? Wounded, bleeding but still fighting back!' 'Ignacy, it ain't a movie. It is a boardgame.' Vlaada replied. I don't know if Vlaada likes Die Hard, but at that very moment, he didn't look like he was a big fan of John McClane. 'Vlaada, c'mon! It's like in Die Hard movie! You know, Bruce Willis in torn shirt, lots of blood and fight till the very end. Bruce Willis never gives up. That is the feeling I want to have here in Robinson. I want you bleeding, suffering but still fighting for survive!' 'It's a boardgame. You are designer. Not director. Remember?'
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Dec 20, 2016 23:17
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dr_ether posted:But as I have said, there are a number of innovations that mean newly created survivors actually start with out better than the initial survivors. Bonus stats, or inheriting weapon proficiency from parents. So yes, it will suck in the short term the loss of certain survivors, but the game is very much about developing the entire settlement so you can reach milestones that outweigh those losses. How much play time is the "short term"? It's certainly more than a few hunts/hours of gameplay iirc
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Dec 20, 2016 23:57
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Xelkelvos posted:How much play time is the "short term"? It's certainly more than a few hunts/hours of gameplay iirc Short term here means lantern years. Not actually play time.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:11
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dr_ether posted:Short term here means lantern years. Not actually play time. So how many lantern years typically?
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Dec 21, 2016 00:17
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Xelkelvos posted:How much play time is the "short term"? It's certainly more than a few hunts/hours of gameplay iirc For what it's worth, in the few attempted campaigns that I played in we usually didn't have too much trouble if someone died as long as we were at least hunting the Screaming Antelope. That's not to say it wasn't an uphill battle, but with available gear and the innovations we had by then it felt feasible (1-3 lantern years). Extra feasible if we had one of those special colored kids (Saviors I think?), because as long as you give them decent starting equipment their abilities usually make a number of the hunts/encounters pretty easy. Of course, sometimes you get sucked into a bird butt and you're pretty much SOL - I could've done without that. Also, the People of the Skull variant turn your survivors into incredible murder machines. It feels so much easier than the regular mode.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:21
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My biggest issue with the game that I haven't really seen mentioned is the grindy nature of it. You need to beat a whole bunch of Lions and Antelopes to have the requisite gear to win. And those two fights outstay their welcome really fast. Grinding is poo poo in videogames, where at least you're just wasting your own time. Doing it in a boardgame is intolerable. Of the base game quarry monsters only the Phoenix has an interesting fight, but it's also one that is pretty deadly.thefakenews posted:Unlike a lot of people in the thread, I have played a bunch of Kingdom Death. In my experience trap cards are arbitrary bullshit. Especially the first time you encounter tham and get a party wipe without warning. Yes. You can mitigate them when you know about them, but look at the trap card for the King's Man. We hit that trap card and half of our party instantly died. Frankly, we were lucky not to lose more. This was because we didn't know that a certain item was mandatory to deal with the trap. Why didn't we look at the card with the Lion Eye? Because despite hunting lion's for 15 straight hunts, we didn't find a single lion eye. That's probably uncommonly unlucky, and most groups would have the item by the point they faced the King's Man. But even knowing the trap was coming, it's effects are still ridiculous if you don't have the right gear, and laughable if you do. Take the right gear and that King's Man trap that decimated us is a total joke. Trap cards aren't an arbitrary game design choice, they are meant to make players decide between two opposed strategies- trying to kill monsters fast(to avoid monster attacks) and trying to kill monsters safely (to mitigate retaliations, including traps). But one of the fundamental tools to deal with traps is gated behind a loot drop. And if you decide to be less than fully cautious? Some of them are gotcha's that can completely wreck the party, but only if you don't know about them. That is bad design.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:28
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Xelkelvos posted:So how many lantern years typically? That all really depends on the innovations you have and the stage of the campaign. So for example, if the key task you were aiming for was to level up a survivor with weapon proficiency - because if you achieve mastery the weapon specialism is unlocked for the entire camp, then the risk is offset by a birth and the family innovation, because new borns gain half the proficiency of the parent. So that may only set you back a few lantern years. given levelling up relies on that fighter using that weapon in a fight and get at least one hit with it. Actual permanent stat increases in the game are quite rare, until you get the innovation Clan of Death innovation, that gives all new borns stat bonus to strength, evasion and accuracy. Of course depending on your innovations you may get that innovation quickly, and it means your newborn survivors are better than your initial batch before the innovation. At 12 lantern years in there is again another chance for survivors to be born with more strength. Couple with some other innovations, by this stage it becomes quite likely to have high strength survivors being born, to the extent they overshadow those that you lost getting there. With nemesis encounters I would say it depends on your confidence fighting each one, and so you may be able to take one down with your best survivors, or you may want to just send in some sacrifices and hope you can luck out. Overall I would say setbacks last generally for about 3 lantern years, and if you can get the camp to the half way mark of the campaign, then newer survivors will be far more useful than older ones (save for the weapon proficiency that you should be close to capping off). There is lots of risk management going on.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:32
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Undead Hippo posted:My biggest issue with the game that I haven't really seen mentioned is the grindy nature of it. You need to beat a whole bunch of Lions and Antelopes to have the requisite gear to win. And those two fights outstay their welcome really fast. Grinding is poo poo in videogames, where at least you're just wasting your own time. Doing it in a boardgame is intolerable. Of the base game quarry monsters only the Phoenix has an interesting fight, but it's also one that is pretty deadly. Well the other way to mitigate traps is to get the spear specialism since you can cancel the trap card and redraw. I also believe new things are being added in 1.5 to add new ways to mitigate traps.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:35
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Another thing is that you don't have to play this game blind. With regards to the King's Man trap, there are a number of ways to go about tackling that. But then the question is, are you wanting to play blind, and experience the game and learn from it that way, or are you playing it with more forward planning. Neither way is right, and suggesting the right way to play the game is to do a blind play when you first play is also wrong. Do what you want to enjoy the game.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:38
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thefakenews posted:This is well and good in theory, but if you get a few bad rolls for making babies (ending up with dead parents), a character or two with bad injuries and then an unexpected tpk then you can easily end up screwed. Especially if your remaining survivors haven't got much in the way of advances. That sounds like a comedic string of unfortunate events, not really something you'd see in actual play. Why would you even fight something hard if you are hurting for survivors? You'd put 3 new survivors and a wounded veteran on the next hunt to kill something easy, get more endeavors to make/age up new guys. Even if they ALL somehow died on the hunt, like maybe against a Nemesis, you'd still get a bunch of resources or endeavor. The only way I can see people truly hurting from anything is if they chose survival of the fittest and didn't plan it well. It's getting changed in 1.5 for good reason but even then that's a mistake you make only once. Undead Hippo posted:My biggest issue with the game that I haven't really seen mentioned is the grindy nature of it. You need to beat a whole bunch of Lions and Antelopes to have the requisite gear to win. And those two fights outstay their welcome really fast. Grinding is poo poo in videogames, where at least you're just wasting your own time. Doing it in a boardgame is intolerable. Of the base game quarry monsters only the Phoenix has an interesting fight, but it's also one that is pretty deadly. That's a choice you have to make too though. Do you send lovely survivors out when you first fight anything, try to figure out the monster? Or do you send in your best guys and hope you are well prepared? There's only a handful of trap cards in the game so once you know them, you can prepare for them. It's something most groups decide naturally and if they don't I think it's pretty clear the Butcher is meant to teach you how you really need to be ready for anything or you may pay dearly. None of the Nemesis encounters result in game overs either so it's not like you can't sandbag it and send your worst guys out to die. I'd agree with grind though. You really do need something like Gorm if you plan to play more than a couple campaigns. Thankfully that might be addressed in 1.5 too.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:40
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mango sentinel posted:A lot of the busier models look better once they're painted and your brain isn't struggling to figure out those bits and can just tell at a glance they're human arms/hands. I like it on the GOD KING thingie that ended up not being made. I like it on the other Ram/Goat/whatever thing that is one of the new expansions. I hate it on this thing, I hate the anus-hand-dick thing on lion god. They are overall neat concepts, but real hit or miss. "Add hands to it" is a thing that works well in moderation, but when everything has hands on it? It's a one hand pony made out of hands. Hands.
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Dec 21, 2016 01:19
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Det_no posted:That sounds like a comedic string of unfortunate events, not really something you'd see in actual play. Why would you even fight something hard if you are hurting for survivors? You'd put 3 new survivors and a wounded veteran on the next hunt to kill something easy, get more endeavors to make/age up new guys. Even if they ALL somehow died on the hunt, like maybe against a Nemesis, you'd still get a bunch of resources or endeavor. Not seen in actual play? There is an event designed to basically cut your survivors numbers in half at that point in time! It happened to me in 2 different instances.
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Dec 21, 2016 01:25
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LordAba posted:Not seen in actual play? There is an event designed to basically cut your survivors numbers in half at that point in time! It happened to me in 2 different instances. Yeah the King's Man event is something of a game balancer. They kill population if you are over a certain threshold, or they don't if you are below that number. Essentially if you are learning to play the game, it is a way to keep the game a challenge or help you out if it has been too hard. Of course, there is nothing stopping you facing down the King's Man early to prevent this. But that event is not in the game if you use Slenderman, or play the People of the Stars.
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Dec 21, 2016 01:40
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The fact that meta knowledge or otherwise looking ahead at future information that you shouldn't necessarily have seems like a lovely trap no two ways about it and the fact that "It'll be fixed in 1.5" keeps coming up seems a lot more damning than as any kind of reassurance. It indicates that the dev didn't really test out those parts very much or with people who were already into that sort of thing, and thus see getting shat upon by the game as perfectly fine, as opposed to more blind players who may or may not see that as a good thing. And given that certain setbacks can last about 3 Lantern Years, that amounts to about 2 to 3 hours of play time (iirc with four players) which, again, seems like a needlessly tedious waste of time to grind up another competent set of villagers or loot for equipment or innovations or so on. What is the point in making that an inevitability in the game? It's taking one of the least interesting parts of video gaming and putting it into a board game.
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Dec 21, 2016 01:58
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People like a challenge? People find that fun perhaps? I know I do.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:17
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I want the cool as heck Bloodborne Watcher mini from the second KS but I imagine by the time they hit retail it's $100+ for being a ~rare exclusive~
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Dec 21, 2016 02:28
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dr_ether posted:People like a challenge? People find that fun perhaps? I know I do. Ghost Stories is a challenge. Kingdom Death is rolling a d10 to see if you stab yourself in a particular extremity or actually play a game.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:32
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Dark Souls would have a scorched hallway with blackened skeletons lying around, that has a fire trap in it that will kill you. If Dark Souls had been made by Kingdom Death's designer, it would just be a fire trap that you could never have known was there unless you read a FAQ or you had died to it before, except the fire trap only activates 50% of the time.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:34
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Xelkelvos posted:The fact that meta knowledge or otherwise looking ahead at future information that you shouldn't necessarily have seems like a lovely trap no two ways about it and the fact that "It'll be fixed in 1.5" keeps coming up seems a lot more damning than as any kind of reassurance. It indicates that the dev didn't really test out those parts very much or with people who were already into that sort of thing, and thus see getting shat upon by the game as perfectly fine, as opposed to more blind players who may or may not see that as a good thing. Huh? What are you talking about? You discover everything by experimentation, same as you would do in something like Dark Souls since that keeps coming up except without the hyperbole. It's like when you find Havel down there in his tower; You see him, don't know how tough he is, you can choose to find out or be cautious. I think you haven't quite grasped how disposable survivors are. Any settlement a few years in will have like 12 (and in fact you are expected to get 15+ to get an event) and you can choose to get either resources or endeavors (used to create/train existing survivors and build innovations) when they die so either way you keep getting stronger.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:10
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Det_no posted:Huh? What are you talking about? You discover everything by experimentation, same as you would do in something like Dark Souls since that keeps coming up except without the hyperbole. It's like when you find Havel down there in his tower; You see him, don't know how tough he is, you can choose to find out or be cautious. But in dark souls, you can see that fire trap hallways look much more blackened without running into the fire. You can tell that Havel looks very different from (and arguably looks more badass than) a typical enemy in the area without actually attacking him. You only learn about these traps in KD after you get hit by them. So a more accurate analogy is if Havel the Rock looked exactly like an Undead Soldier or Armored Hollow, but always spawned in the same spot in the Upper Undead Burg.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:19
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golden bubble posted:But in dark souls, you can see that fire trap hallways look much more blackened without running into the fire. You can tell that Havel looks very different from (and arguably looks more badass than) a typical enemy in the area without actually attacking him. You only learn about these traps in KD after you get hit by them. So a more accurate analogy is if Havel the Rock looked exactly like an Undead Soldier or Armored Hollow, but always spawned in the same spot in the Upper Undead Burg. But this isn't a computer game. It is entirely in your hands to read all the AI and HL cards before a fight, or not if you wish to. And the HL deck is only ever randomised. You will always have the same trap card in there.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:40
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golden bubble posted:But in dark souls, you can see that fire trap hallways look much more blackened without running into the fire. You can tell that Havel looks very different from (and arguably looks more badass than) a typical enemy in the area without actually attacking him. You only learn about these traps in KD after you get hit by them. So a more accurate analogy is if Havel the Rock looked exactly like an Undead Soldier or Armored Hollow, but always spawned in the same spot in the Upper Undead Burg. That doesn't work because in KDM you know the trap card is there too. If you don't know what it does then you can make a suicide party (since you probably don't know anything else the monster does) OR just play cautious: attack from range, have bandages and survival/insanity stocked up so even if you get a surprise you may be able to fix things. You have to remember, these cards appear when you attack so you can position yourself as you want before you try and trigger them. Some of them are as basic as "counterattack whoever hit you" and others scale with the monster level so the first time you trigger they won't punish you too bad. If you do find a lion's eye you can also craft an item that lets you see which cards are coming so you can see the trap right there and plan accordingly.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:44
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dr_ether posted:People like a challenge? People find that fun perhaps? I know I do. What is the 'challenge' behind the murder event? A returning survivor flat out dies based on a a single card draw that then gets shuffled back into the deck.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:24
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Caros posted:What is the 'challenge' behind the murder event? A returning survivor flat out dies based on a a single card draw that then gets shuffled back into the deck. Well it's not that simple. Depending on your innovations and principles obtained, the murder can lead to other things, which can be beneficial. But hey, this is a game that is meant to be about building a settlement and building a community that have to survive in a world. Sometimes poo poo just happens. But the it is not just a random death and no benefit what so ever. Edit: Pretty much every out come of the murder event is beneficial in some manner. dr_ether fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 05:11
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Det_no posted:That sounds like a comedic string of unfortunate events, not really something you'd see in actual play. Why would you even fight something hard if you are hurting for survivors? You'd put 3 new survivors and a wounded veteran on the next hunt to kill something easy, get more endeavors to make/age up new guys. Even if they ALL somehow died on the hunt, like maybe against a Nemesis, you'd still get a bunch of resources or endeavor. Well, I mean, it's what happened on my first play through. Got the event that cut our population in half (we were like one survivor over the limit so ended up with only 6 or something). Then got a TPK from the King's Man trap card. At that point we had gently caress all playable survivors due to injuries and other events. We might have been able to come back, maybe, but after getting screwed by the game confusing randomness for difficulty, once again, we gave up on that play through. My complaint is not so much that's it's difficult, as it is randomly just makes itself unfun. But again, for me, the game is wading through arbitrary bullshit in order do more unengaging combat. If the combat was better I might put up with the other stuff. Spidicules was kinda an interesting fight I guess, but grinding antelope and lions is boring as poo poo. I feel like saying the game is fine because you can forward plan by reading all the cards and events in advance both spoils the atmosphere and is a lot of loving prep work. Also, the claim that 1.5 will fix some of my complaints is both damning, and unhelpful. Why would I try improved rules for a game I didn't like? It's not like I bought the game, so there's no sunk cost fallacy to salve.
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Dec 21, 2016 05:54
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thefakenews posted:Well, I mean, it's what happened on my first play through. Got the event that cut our population in half (we were like one survivor over the limit so ended up with only 6 or something). Then got a TPK from the King's Man trap card. At that point we had gently caress all playable survivors due to injuries and other events. We might have been able to come back, maybe, but after getting screwed by the game confusing randomness for difficulty, once again, we gave up on that play through. Then you hosed up because you either lose the 5 population or you resist and fight the King's Man, not both. And I'm not telling you to check cards in advance, I'm saying you can figure them out during play but if you don't like it then that's ok, might be time to go to another thread.
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Dec 21, 2016 06:13
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Det_no posted:Then you hosed up because you either lose the 5 population or you resist and fight the King's Man, not both. And I'm not telling you to check cards in advance, I'm saying you can figure them out during play but if you don't like it then that's ok, might be time to go to another thread. This is the thread for talking about your lovely fetish game, so I think they're actually in the correct thread
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Dec 21, 2016 06:22
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Det_no posted:Then you hosed up because you either lose the 5 population or you resist and fight the King's Man, not both. And I'm not telling you to check cards in advance, I'm saying you can figure them out during play but if you don't like it then that's ok, might be time to go to another thread. I was mistaken, it was the Manhunter that caused the TPK. The bit about reading in advance was directed at Dr Ether, not you. Edit: although learning how some of the nemesis monsters work in play isn't really an option - since if you didn't make the items to counter them before the fight then you don't get another chance. I think I'll stay in this thread thanks. It's already been said that talking about negative play experiences is perfectly on topic. thefakenews fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 06:26
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:This is the thread for talking about your lovely fetish game, so I think they're actually in the correct thread drat I guess you are right. Then we can all stay here and celebrate that KDM is soon to become the best received boardgame in the history of modern boardgames. Three cheers for you hobby, lads.
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Dec 21, 2016 06:59
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Det_no posted:drat I guess you are right. Then we can all stay here and celebrate that KDM is soon to become the best received boardgame in the history of modern boardgames. I think monopoly is gonna hold that crown for a while, but maybe it will topple the oatmeal dude's boardgame from its place on top of the kickstarter pile
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Dec 21, 2016 07:28
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Det_no posted:drat I guess you are right. Then we can all stay here and celebrate that KDM is soon to become the best received boardgame in the history of modern boardgames. Rad. I hope you have an excellent time.
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Dec 21, 2016 08:03
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:I think monopoly is gonna hold that crown for a while, but maybe it will topple the oatmeal dude's boardgame from its place on top of the kickstarter pile Kingdom Death: right up there next to Monopoly and Exploding Kittens!
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Dec 21, 2016 08:15
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dr_ether posted:Sometimes poo poo just happens. This right here is my point. This is lovely, lovely loving game design. The murder event kills your highest hunt XP survivor with absolutely zero player agency which is the cardinal sin of a game like this. Steve the pirate has survived nine hunts and is the celebrated badass of your table? He has a roughly 1/20 chance of dying instantly everytime you go back to the settlement and there is nothing you can do to mitigate or to change that. The murder card is everything wrong with KDM summed up in a single card. It starts by screwing the players with absolutely no input, and then allows them to choose between three lovely options in the hope that they roll high on a single d10 with no ability to modify or mitigate their odds. I'm honestly surprised you're even defending it as the standard amongst players who I've talked to is to set fire to the drat thing after you open the box.
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Dec 21, 2016 08:24
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LordAba posted:Kingdom Death: right up there next to Monopoly and Exploding Kittens! Personally I'm waiting for the BIG BANG THEORY edition of Kingdom Death!
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Dec 21, 2016 09:13
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Det_no posted:drat I guess you are right. Then we can all stay here and celebrate that KDM is soon to become the best received boardgame in the history of modern boardgames. best recieved by whom?
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Dec 21, 2016 11:01
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Caros posted:This right here is my point. This is lovely, lovely loving game design. You're treating that survivor like it's your character. It is not. Your Tribe is your "character" and it suffered a setback you can overcome.
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Dec 21, 2016 14:02
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Det_no posted:drat I guess you are right. Then we can all stay here and celebrate that KDM is soon to become the best received boardgame in the history of modern boardgames. Nah. KD 1.5 may have the highest dollar number, but there's been other games that have beaten it on backer numbers. KD1.5 only has about 15500, I think Scythe had almost 18k backers when it funded. I don't think KD will hit that, it might get close but the rush is over. Don't conflate $$ numbers with being well received, because even an expensive piece of poo poo is still just a piece of poo poo at its core. Most reviews i've seen of KD have come down to 'Some inspired mechanics, but overall just a random dicefest" type. I haven't seen any glowing reviews beyond the ones the other guy in the thread have done.
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Dec 21, 2016 14:12
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