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Using blade arms for the first time lol they are just insane.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:36
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IronicDongz posted:halberd has like 3 different pointy bits though! They're a clear upgrade over tridents if you're not planning to use a shield anyway. And you can often find one on a gnoll or an orc by d:4 or d:6. Just as much a transitional weapon as a flail or a scimitar. You've got a 1-2-3 progression for both one-handed and two-handed polearms. And the two-handers are already alphabetized with the best one first (scythes are the worst, and their description even calls them out as unsuitable for combat).
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Dec 21, 2016 00:39
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Yeah, but they're not the equivalent of flails, tridents are because Fi/Gl get to start with war axe/trident/flail/longsword/staff(not war axe/halberd/flail/longsword/staff), and then morningstar/halberd/broad axe are a step up from the Fi/Gl start weapons. Then you have the heavier battleaxe/greatsword/greatmace/glaive all basically filling a similar niche as "reliably good 2H weapon for 20 skill". So you sort of have 'groups' of weapons like:
And then short blades are off in their own little world. Point of all this being-morningstars/broad axes/scimitars are a step above flails/war axes/longswords which can be taken into the endgame comfortably with a shield if you don't get a better 1H option, but halberds cannot because they are 2H. Which means the only good 1H option for polearms is demon tridents(+trishulas), which makes 1H builds with polearms more rare because the only good 1H option for them is rare most of the game. I would like to see halberds become 1H and gain +2 skill needed for mindelay like broad axes!
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Dec 21, 2016 01:08
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IronicDongz posted:Which means the only good 1H option for polearms is demon tridents(+trishulas), which makes 1H builds with polearms more rare because the only good 1H option for them is rare most of the game. On the other hand the biggest 2h polearm is the most common "rare" weapon type in the game by far. You can go through an entire three rune game and only see 0-1 copies of executioner/double/triple/lajatang/quickblade/eveningstar but Orc and Vaults have half a dozen bardiche between them. Demon whips and swords are also much harder to find than tridents IME as well thanks to shoals if you land that 50/50 flip.
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Dec 21, 2016 01:34
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This is true, but I still think it's awkward how halberds have such a brief window when they're worthwhile because you usually find glaives not long after. But then again demon hatchets also still don't exist so it's a pipe dream in general I guess
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Dec 21, 2016 01:38
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IronicDongz posted:This is true, but I still think it's awkward how halberds have such a brief window when they're worthwhile because you usually find glaives not long after. crawl trivia: the obsidian axe is, canonically, UNRAND_DEMON_AXE anyway, it seems like a weird argument that it's bad for weapon classes to be more distinct. like, IronicDongz posted:Point of all this being-morningstars/broad axes/scimitars are a step above flails/war axes/longswords which can be taken into the endgame comfortably with a shield if you don't get a better 1H option, but halberds cannot because they are 2H. Which means the only good 1H option for polearms is demon tridents(+trishulas), which makes 1H builds with polearms more rare because the only good 1H option for them is rare most of the game. this all seems good to me! (though i could see an argument for making halberds 1h and somehow making m&f more 2h-focused...? not sure how exactly you'd manage that.)
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Dec 21, 2016 02:11
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PleasingFungus posted:
Maybe it's just me, but I like the niche that M&F have as "the weapon you take if you want to: melee with a shield/not have to worry about hydras/ are an ogre with access to a GSC". Well, maybe not so much that last one anymore, but the other two are still valid.
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Dec 21, 2016 02:37
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Maybe certain weapons become one-handed at a skill breakpoint? (minor Str/Dex weighting too maybe)
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Dec 21, 2016 02:41
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PleasingFungus posted:anyway, it seems like a weird argument that it's bad for weapon classes to be more distinct. like, granted something should probably be done about scythes first LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 02:50
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I gues reapers make removing scythes awkward because there isn't any solution that preserves their relevant effects cleanly. Reapers have reaching attacks and a random per-reaper brand. Replacing their attacks with an innate melee attack while replicating the scythe effects would be a mechanical mess and giving them a different polearm is totally out of place flavour wise. The flavour is somewhat relevant for their necromancy connection via miscasts and mummy curses where they fill a useful role that soul eaters do not.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:42
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Reapers are boring as hell so I wouldn't mind if they just stopped existing.
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Dec 21, 2016 03:56
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Scythes getting a reaching cleave would be badass. Not as badass as the return of Singularity, obviously.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:01
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Darox posted:I gues reapers make removing scythes awkward because there isn't any solution that preserves their relevant effects cleanly. Reapers have reaching attacks and a random per-reaper brand. Replacing their attacks with an innate melee attack while replicating the scythe effects would be a mechanical mess and giving them a different polearm is totally out of place flavour wise. The flavour is somewhat relevant for their necromancy connection via miscasts and mummy curses where they fill a useful role that soul eaters do not.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:12
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Internet Kraken posted:Reapers are boring as hell so I wouldn't mind if they just stopped existing. Honestly even though they are a melee only stat pile you mostly meet in extended I consider reapers a notable demon. I've had several encounters where a reaper just smacks me repeatedly with a bunch of damage while hiding behind other stuff, especially in tomb. I've had more near-death experiences because of reapers than I have with balrugs or blizzard demons. Reaching plus a brand can be troublesome. Haifisch posted:How often do their random brands matter, honestly? By the time you start seeing them, they're already chaff. You could give them a generic reaching attack without losing much. Distortion is the obvious one but even the minor ones add damage. Darox fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 04:16
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Of course, a non-relevant monster can be removed. However, I think it's more interesting to move it to a higher (more shallow) depth first. This is what happened to some uniques. Where could Reapers be interesting enemies? (I agree they're chaff when they come up -- I cannot recall a memorable fight against one.)
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Dec 21, 2016 04:16
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ran into 40 spiders chasing orb spiders in nest. RIP draconian transmuter. Your ninja blade hands were wrecking poo poo.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:22
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euphronius posted:chasing orb spiders (Even a Tm needs some way to take things out at range. That goes double for Spider, since Orb Spiders exist)
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Dec 21, 2016 04:23
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well, now i know!!!
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Dec 21, 2016 04:24
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Haifisch posted:How often do their random brands matter, honestly? By the time you start seeing them, they're already chaff. You could give them a generic reaching attack without losing much. reapers are absolutely not chaff. IronicDongz posted:I think in the case of certain weapons being overly niche, it is. Halberds don't see nearly as much use as their counterparts in other weapon types and I wish that were not the case(this is partially because I think they look cooler than glaive/bardiche). Also I don't think "this weapon class doesn't get a demon weapon" is a great way to be distinct if that weapon class is not short blades/staves(both of which I view as their own weird "not normal/main melee" weapons"), axes are not more cool because you can't get demon axes sorry, i was unclear. i don't really have a strong opinion about the absence of demon axes; probably it'd be fine if they existed. (would you also have holy axes...?) i was just arguing about polearms. arguing that halberds' niche is too narrow is reasonable; i don't think every weapon needs to have a huge period in which it's relevant, but i can imagine tweaking halberds to be slightly better. i barely disagree with you at all, i guess? scythes are tricky because they exist and are used currently as a pure flavor weapon, or a joke weapon, depending how you think about it. (neither of which is very crawl-y!) but if you buff them in some way, to make them a 'real' weapon (e.g. with reach-cleaving), you end up with something that's not really appropriate for where it's currently used. like, do reapers really need to be Allybane: The Monster? does sigmund? idk. (do polearms even need another viable weapon type...?) it's one of those nagging crawl questions that we could still be debating in five years, or that someone could arbitrarily decide on a change for (probably either scythe buffing or removal) and push it next week. who can say?
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Dec 21, 2016 04:24
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dpeg posted:Of course, a non-relevant monster can be removed. However, I think it's more interesting to move it to a higher (more shallow) depth first. This is what happened to some uniques. Where could Reapers be interesting enemies? (I agree they're chaff when they come up -- I cannot recall a memorable fight against one.) Give them an always-on fear aura, make non-polearm melee characters hate life. To avoid fear bloat, remove it from eidelons because it's kinda dumb on them. Satyr have ranged attacks and orange brains blink around but eidelons mostly just cast some draining bolts and walk up to you, their fear is really irrelevant.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:24
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They aren't chaff. I mean, if you have a holy branded weapon and are a tanky character they can't do poo poo but that applies to a lot of extended. I've had a lot of games with weaker characters in extended where Reapers did major damage. What makes them boring to me is that they don't do anything other than hit you. They don't have any sort of trick or special ability. Which is why for a strong character in extended they never feel like an issue. Maybe you could make them slightly weaker but have their attacks brand the player to temporarily take more damage from other demons and undead. That would make them a lot more threatening for everyone.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:25
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Trishulas are so good I dont see any holes in poles really.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:25
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PleasingFungus posted:sorry, i was unclear. i don't really have a strong opinion about the absence of demon axes; probably it'd be fine if they existed. (would you also have holy axes...?) i was just arguing about polearms. kind of vaguely related, i guess, but part of me has always wished that there were more demon/holy weapons and that they'd exist as alternate high-level options for various weapons. like, demon weapons would swing faster but hit for a little less and holy weapons might hit harder but slower. probably a bunk idea overall, but part of me has always wondered why there's only a really small handful of demon/holy weapons.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:32
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i don't think every monster has to have a super complicated gimmick. there are a lot of complicated monsters running around in extended (demonspawn...); the player has only so much attention to go around. solid, simple monsters are a good way to fill out a monster set, and reapers are both simple and thematic. they're good. for the 'chaff' people: quote:!lg * urune>5 recent s=killer !won they're top 10 for extended killers. (similar position as hells killers.) they do a heck of a lot of damage. respect em!
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Dec 21, 2016 04:38
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PleasingFungus posted:(would you also have holy axes...?) euphronius posted:Trishulas are so good I dont see any holes in poles really. the hole in poles is "there is no good 1H pole weapon besides demon trident(+trishula but that's basically the same weapon)", when other weapon types get 1H weapons which are common and decent past earlygame-eg, M&F gets morningstars, which are better than flail/trident but relatively common, and eveningstars for a beefy damage option. long blades get scimitars and double swords. axes get broad axes(but unfortunately no demon axe). Johnny Joestar posted:kind of vaguely related, i guess, but part of me has always wished that there were more demon/holy weapons and that they'd exist as alternate high-level options for various weapons. like, demon weapons would swing faster but hit for a little less and holy weapons might hit harder but slower. probably a bunk idea overall, but part of me has always wondered why there's only a really small handful of demon/holy weapons.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:39
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Hell Sentinels being the top kill in extended doesn't surprise me at all. Nasty mountains of pain.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:41
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I would not have bet on reapers killing more folks than ice fiends, is that a rarity thing? I want chance of death given a monster type damaging you during the fight so we can normalize for spawn frequency.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:46
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I would not have bet on reapers killing more folks than ice fiends, is that a rarity thing? I want chance of death given a monster type damaging you during the fight so we can normalize for spawn frequency. Ice fiends are chumps in extended and most of their threat comes from casting torment, which can't land killing blows. Daeva are surprisingly high considering their rarity but I guess everyone who walks into Zins pan temple unprepared is going to die to daeva and half of the people who are prepared will also die. Add in a couple deaths via seraphim summon on the orb run.
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Dec 21, 2016 04:50
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PleasingFungus posted:i don't think every monster has to have a super complicated gimmick. there are a lot of complicated monsters running around in extended (demonspawn...); the player has only so much attention to go around. solid, simple monsters are a good way to fill out a monster set, and reapers are both simple and thematic. they're good. I still have no idea what demonspawn or draconians do. Both could probably afford to be cut back to 3-5 total types, with distinct gimmicks ala the vault dudes.
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Dec 21, 2016 05:17
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there's a draconian that summons stuff, a draconian that can blink you around, and then all the other ones
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Dec 21, 2016 05:32
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cheetah7071 posted:I still have no idea what demonspawn or draconians do. Both could probably afford to be cut back to 3-5 total types, with distinct gimmicks ala the vault dudes. Warmonger - Your magic is tainted wizard, prepare to die Corruptor - Summons summon summoning summons Blood Saint - LIGHTNING ORB Black Sun - Plain demonspawn in black robes Chaos Champions - Why does this pan lord have might? (rip) Draconians are much simpler Caller - The one that summons death drakes Warper - The rear end in a top hat with blink other Everything else - The other ones
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Dec 21, 2016 05:36
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Darox posted:A quick guide to demonspawn variants Are the demonspawn color coded? Draconians are colored by their breath not by what they actually do so that's useless. Or does each color only have one class?
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Dec 21, 2016 05:45
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cheetah7071 posted:I still have no idea what demonspawn or draconians do. Both could probably afford to be cut back to 3-5 total types, with distinct gimmicks ala the vault dudes. the devs agree! demonspawn and draconians both got cut back recently; putrid demonspawn, chaos champions, mottled dracs & drac zealots all went to the big zot in the sky. there are now four demonspawn classes & colours, and six draconian classes and colours. (latter could maybe be trimmed a little more, but imo draconians have never been nearly as obnoxiously complex as ds were.)
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Dec 21, 2016 05:59
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cheetah7071 posted:Are the demonspawn color coded? Draconians are colored by their breath not by what they actually do so that's useless. Or does each color only have one class? Yeah it's gold armour, purple armour, red robes, black robes, teal armour respectively. Draconians are harder to distinguish but the warpers have purple magic effects and summoners have green magic. e: Scorchers (the ones with hellfire) have red-purple magic but they have black robes while warpers are completely purple. Darox fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 06:04
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Black Sun demonspawn are relevant if you are undead or using lichform, as they are one of the few monsters with dispel undead.
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Dec 21, 2016 06:09
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A dramatic strike before Christmas! Goodbye, the top three wands, as all of heal wounds, hasting, and teleportation are now gone. Instead, their consumables are (slightly) more common, coming out of the proportions of useless items, and Deep Dwarves can heal themselves directly, though I don't really understand how the rot effect works. Can it be restored ever, and does it take more than it used to? It is a mystery. Also, Sandblast doesn't require you to wield rocks anymore but just uses them from inventory, and Mummies have a +2 spellcasting aptitude (and no other changes I can find, so they lost the ability to heal or haste themselves, I guess). Prism fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 07:04
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I'M SO FRIGGING CLOSE Gonna have to go Chei and hit 114 I guess. Room for improvement, some 5 int rings, 2 int on hat, 0 on shield. Still can't see hitting the cap at without running a 4th zig, and I don't see that happening short of finding wucad mu.
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Dec 21, 2016 07:05
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So much for lichform being safe to use with a heal wounds wand  Better crank out one last mummy win before 0.20 makes them even more miserable.
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Dec 21, 2016 07:07
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Prism posted:Also, Sandblast doesn't require you to wield rocks anymore but just uses them from inventory, and Mummies have a +2 spellcasting aptitude (and no other changes I can find, so they lost the ability to heal or haste themselves, I guess). It's also a huge nerf to necromutation, since now you can't heal or haste at all. Guess a lot more people will be taking revivification or ddoor.... Poor old lich, used to haste whenever the gently caress he wanted, then he had to carry a wand and some recharge scrolls, now I guess at least he's got a little more space in his inventory and spell list!
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Dec 21, 2016 07:10
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gently caress everything
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Dec 21, 2016 07:13
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