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DSA is pretty good if you got a chapter near you. Otherwise look at SAlt and ISO, PSL. Whatever. Unless the left suddenly achieves huge and groundbreaking success at everything it does for the next 20 years, they'll all be functionally the same organization until climate change kills us all.
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Dec 21, 2016 05:45
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I've got no qualms with DSA as an org, but I love the twitter drama.
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Dec 21, 2016 06:38
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Atrocious Joe posted:I've got no qualms with DSA as an org, but I love the twitter drama. I also like cracking jokes at Jacobin's expense, so all is well
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Dec 21, 2016 06:47
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Impermanent posted:DSA is pretty good if you got a chapter near you. Otherwise look at SAlt and ISO, PSL. Whatever. Unless the left suddenly achieves huge and groundbreaking success at everything it does for the next 20 years, they'll all be functionally the same organization until climate change kills us all. SAlt had me attend these conference calls once a week for a while before they started calling me directly. They sent me a bunch of reading and I have to discuss it with them. It's been pretty cool.
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Dec 21, 2016 06:56
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Twitter seems to me to be somehow an even worse way to try to seriously communicate than these very forums right here. It's just a machine designed to make people hurt each other's feelings for no good reason.
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Dec 21, 2016 09:40
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Twitter seems to me to be somehow an even worse way to try to seriously communicate than these very forums right here. It's just a machine designed to make people hurt each other's feelings for no good reason. It's great for breaking news and short jokes. For some reason people use it to hold discussions and write essays. Enjoy posted:Here's a short documentary I've seen that cleared things up for me In the Manifesto, there's this quote: m a r x posted:Here it becomes evident, that the bourgeoisie is unfit any longer to be the ruling class in society, and to impose its conditions of existence upon society as an over-riding law. It is unfit to rule because it is incompetent to assure an existence to its slave within his slavery, because it cannot help letting him sink into such a state, that it has to feed him, instead of being fed by him.
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Dec 21, 2016 10:18
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I think it's pretty easy to see how serfs might have been better off than early wage workers and indentured servants You could definitely argue that it's still true today, at least for people making minimum wage I mean, you're basically a slave, but at least you have property and there's something of a Hobbes style social contract thing happening. There's no true incentive for the factory owner to be good to the worker other than maybe labor competition or legal requirements
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Dec 21, 2016 12:22
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Medieval serfs also got tons of holidays. IIRC, the most common argument in favor of enclosure laws in England, was that peasants on communal lands were too lazy. They just squandered all their leisure time getting drunk, or in revelry with friends & family when they could have been doing a 16 hour work day. Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 13:19
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Larry Parrish posted:I think it's pretty easy to see how serfs might have been better off than early wage workers and indentured servants i'm reminded of the observed behavior of workers back in the colonies: people who had no inducement or land claim on arrival would typically work for a year or so, buy themselves a couple hundred acres with the proceeds, and then leave the workforce to become self-sufficient farmers. incidentally, this kept the workforce small and wages high, and reinforced the central roles of slavery (to actually get poo poo built) and genocide (to shore up "uninhabited" land). see, e.g., chapter 1 of Settlers, a good book everyone should read Pener Kropoopkin posted:Medieval serfs also got tons of holidays. i noticed last month a bunch of outlets spontaneously reprinted a thing on this subject originally published like three years ago. not sure what prompted it, but nor am i complaining; it's neat stuff
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Dec 21, 2016 15:40
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Maybe I sound like a regressionist or a Luddite or something but I gotta say having 50 acres or so of my own is a life long dream Doesn't even need a house or utilities. I'll Make Do
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Dec 21, 2016 15:56
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so how dumb is this thread when you have to preemptively apologize for thinking that having some land in the middle of nowhere would be nice
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Dec 21, 2016 15:59
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Me too actually.
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Dec 21, 2016 16:01
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I'd like to apologize for all of the people communism hasn't killed yet. That, along with my other thread crimes will be placed under further scrutiny tomorrow in the C-SPAM Struggle Session, hope you all can make it.
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Dec 21, 2016 16:59
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I'm sorry, but if I had the chance to be worth 5 million dollars and never have to work again I'd accept that lifestyle.
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Dec 21, 2016 17:00
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Agean90 posted:so how dumb is this thread when you have to preemptively apologize for thinking that having some land in the middle of nowhere would be nice I don't know any socialists IRL so when I try to explain things like 'actually producing something of value sounds more fulfilling to me than working in a data center' gets me blank stares
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Dec 21, 2016 17:29
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I'm sorry, but if I had the chance to be worth 5 million dollars and never have to work again I'd accept that lifestyle. That's, uh, pretty weird. I understand the "never work again" part, but you could do that on a fifth of that, easy. You secretly long to join the parasitic class? Is your socialism just sublimated envy?
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Dec 21, 2016 17:39
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lol nobody enjoys having to work to make a living you dumbfuck not even if it's a job you like since you HAVE to do it even when you really don't. "I enjoy working a lovely register jockey job"-marxists apparently
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Dec 21, 2016 17:42
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:That's, uh, pretty weird. I understand the "never work again" part, but you could do that on a fifth of that, easy. You secretly long to join the parasitic class? Is your socialism just sublimated envy? The reason people want to retire is because they've worked all their lives to the point where they no longer have to. The Soviets weren't forcing babushkas to be greeters at potemkin markets. "Fully automated luxury communism" is considered utopic, because people won't have to work in order to recreate society. I also want to be the Soros of Nightmares, and lay the groundwork for a socialist media empire.
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Dec 21, 2016 18:07
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I also want to be the Soros of Nightmares, and lay the groundwork for a socialist media empire. OK, we're on the same page. One million for personal support, four million for providing capital to local co-ops and the like. It was the word "lifestyle" that threw me.
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Dec 21, 2016 18:16
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Aeolius posted:
Whats this crap why is he spelling america with a K and saying retarded stuff like "theirstory"
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Dec 22, 2016 01:37
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Settlers is maoist third worldist garbage, and should not be read by anyone, ever. It actually has only a tenuous relationship with Marxism, you could make exactly the same argument it does about the west/America, outside Marxist economic theory, and conversely, it tells you nothing of insight itself. It belongs in the actual trashcan, as well as the metaphorical trashcan.
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Dec 22, 2016 02:02
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platzapS posted:It's great for breaking news and short jokes. For some reason people use it to hold discussions and write essays.
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Dec 22, 2016 02:12
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MTW isn't very funny outside of the short form, like movie & game reviews.
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Dec 22, 2016 02:13
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mtw is fun as memes and poo poo but goes hardcore moonbat fast
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Dec 22, 2016 02:17
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I would encourage everyone in this thread who considers themselves a socialist to Read Settlers, if not the whole thing then at least read the first chapter. I'm serious in that you should not take some random goon's word dismissing the book off-hand. What usually happens is that someone gleans a very tenuous criticism from the tone of the book and then extrapolates that to some wacky hyperbole which everyone else assumes is true and then runs with. When someone suggested the book in the Bernie Sanders thread they concluded that it was pro-hillary agitprop designed to shame them into thinking socialism is racist. I am not joking. Carmant posted:Whats this crap why is he spelling america with a K and saying retarded stuff like "theirstory" To be fair it's a lot less grating to read "Amerika" than it is to read "AmeriKKKa" over and over.
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Dec 22, 2016 03:17
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If you're not calling it Occupied Turtle Island then idk what to say.
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Dec 22, 2016 03:24
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I'm hoping to be semi-retired before I hit 50. We should have all our debt paid down by the time we're 45 including our current mortgage, then we sell that house for one comparably priced but on a huge plot of woods in Montana, and I'll go work at Starbucks or fuckin whatever to pay down whatever mortgage I might have to take out on the new one.
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Dec 22, 2016 07:05
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Owning property is bourgeois 
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Dec 22, 2016 08:03
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lol if you consider yourself a leftist and have a credit score over 600
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Dec 22, 2016 14:14
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DSA is good in TX at least, get with your local chapter. We're working with the CPUSA, SA, WWP, New Black Panthers, and other assorted left (and organized labor) groups in town to organize an inauguration day action. We had our second meeting last night and managed survive the first circular firing squad and inevitable ideological purges only suffering the loss of one group (but their leader has our permit lol)  get involved with your local left groups, they're great lol!
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Dec 22, 2016 14:20
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jarofpiss posted:DSA is good in TX at least, get with your local chapter. We're working with the CPUSA, SA, WWP, New Black Panthers, and other assorted left (and organized labor) groups in town to organize an inauguration day action. We had our second meeting last night and managed survive the first circular firing squad and inevitable ideological purges only suffering the loss of one group (but their leader has our permit lol) I'm totally going to my local DSA chapter in January once I've recovered from surgery.  at least I will not be alone.
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Dec 22, 2016 15:35
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Odobenidae posted:I'm serious in that you should not take some random goon's word dismissing the book off-hand. What usually happens is that someone gleans a very tenuous criticism from the tone of the book and then extrapolates that to some wacky hyperbole which everyone else assumes is true and then runs with. When someone suggested the book in the Bernie Sanders thread they concluded that it was pro-hillary agitprop designed to shame them into thinking socialism is racist. I am not joking. yeah it's pretty much the book to dismiss on purely tonal grounds. lot of useful research and all, but some people just can't get past a rhetorical device that's fallen out of favor over the intervening decades. (fortunately it's dead easy to just set a word replace entry in one's browser) edit: i checked, in the interview you can't hear the "k" Aeolius fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 15:45
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friendly reminder that twitter socialist/communist drama is not real life
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Dec 22, 2016 16:10
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Karl Barks posted:friendly reminder that twitter socialist/communist drama is not real life It is pretty funny to see people freaking out about twitter arguments damaging "left unity"
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Dec 22, 2016 16:14
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Fiction posted:It is pretty funny to see people freaking out about twitter arguments damaging "left unity" ya... there are people who that is like their entire life. they don't go to meetings, they don't donate time or money in any way. they just tweet. crazy
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Dec 22, 2016 16:16
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it's because most communist and other parties in the US are jokes so why bother joining
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Dec 22, 2016 17:03
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Because it's cool.
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Dec 22, 2016 17:14
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Ice Cream Barbara posted:Owning property is bourgeois only if you extract surplus value from labor done with that property
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Dec 22, 2016 17:25
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Ruzihm posted:only if you extract surplus value from labor done with that property gently caress I have been owned again
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Dec 22, 2016 17:40
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lancemantis posted:it's because most communist and other parties in the US are jokes so why bother joining If we never try there's no risk of failure! It's a flawless plan. https://twitter.com/DemSocialists/status/811975685241716736 Also since I make fun of DSA, to be fair here's them clarifying some stuff that's caused past drama.
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Dec 22, 2016 17:53
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