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Floodkiller posted:Once you enter Extended, it becomes ridiculously common to the point of needing a plan to deal with it and recover from it. [...] This leaves me frustrated that an entire mechanic is relegated to an abstracted strategic rot system depending on how long you want to play the game, and needs to be decided on character start to avoid doing things that will hinder your abilities thousands of turns later. Brannock is working on Hell/Pan for 0.20, and I will bring your point up in the discussions! Saved your words in my Crawl folder, doesn't happen very often 
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Dec 21, 2016 19:25
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World Famous W posted:TSO is an amazing god for extended and my go to for melee charters that can take 'em. It's not the rN+ that makes them useful (though if resists have been poor it doesn't hurt) and not so much the making a holy weapon but the Cleansing Flame, Allies, and HP/MP healing on evil kills. Seeing as pretty much all of extended is demon or undead your angel buddies and holy fire will destroy pretty much anything you come against all the while staying in tip top shape with each abomination slain. I guess I see makhleb as doing those things but better, especially for a melee character who isn't so mp dependent but can really use the extra hp.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:27
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Carcer posted:I don't think new players need HW wands to progress in the game, but I don't see how HW disrupted balance. Or, if they did, the disruption was so inconsequential they've survived 20 off versions of the game. i mean, everything else aside, you'd be surprised at how many things cling onto newer versions of games without being actually looked at until way later. all it takes is the people in charge actually dedicating some thought towards a mechanic/etc. for it to be potentially changed/removed/whatever.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:28
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Ok, I can get behind that. Teaching new players to stick in a fight longer when they should run away is probably a bad idea.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:29
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I guess I see makhleb as doing those things but better, especially for a melee character who isn't so mp dependent but can really use the extra hp. You do need the MP, but only because Cleansing Flame costs 5mp. The piety cost is low enough that you can spam it as what it kills will be gaining you more. Don't know, just like 'em.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:29
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tweet my meat posted:I'm fine with the changes personally, even being a beginner I've seen how wildy powerful those effects can be when attatched to a wand rather than a consumable. It would be nice to see more of their long term replacement plans though. With healing wands gone, mummies especially are gonna suck for a while, though I like how they handled the DD with a racial ability. Spoiler: There is no long term plan. Mummies and Lichform are just trash now.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:30
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Carcer posted:I managed to do 15 runes with a FoFi of Oka, and I suck really bad. On the other hand, I was reliant on a HW wand in some really bad moments and probably wouldn't be able replicate my win now its gone. Similarly, my only 15-rune win was with a Fo of Oka and I had at least two times where I'm sure I would have died without a wand of healing. I guess if I had a huge stack of healing pots it would have been fine too. I stuck with Okawaru because I figured finesse was the closest thing to haste for a Formicid. (which I figured was pretty much a requirement to win 15 runes) taqueso fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 19:35
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Lichform should probably go down a spell level or two.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:37
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the whole point of mummies is that they're trash. they exist to be a challenge species with certain options removed. lichform is also pretty bad but this was true before and I've never felt that HW was a big part of using it
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Dec 21, 2016 19:39
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taqueso posted:Similarly, my only 15-rune win was with a Fi of Oka and I had at least two times where I'm sure I would have died without a wand of healing. I guess if I had a huge stack of healing pots it would have been fine too. I did have a huge stack of them. Turns out tormentors can take off half your health AND be backed up by a bunch of other really dangerous demons, and this can happen a few times per level. If I couldn't make murderholes instantly I would have died on at least a dozen occasions.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:42
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taqueso posted:Similarly, my only 15-rune win was with a Fi of Oka and I had at least two times where I'm sure I would have died without a wand of healing. I guess if I had a huge stack of healing pots it would have been fine too. Sure, but let's be honest here: the most Crawl way for this to play out is for the wand removal to go through with the 'balancing act' of more healing/tele/etc. pots to counteract, then after a short amount of time the pot increase to be removed as 'making the game too easy' (possibly at specific points, possibly in general). Someone not involved in the removal will ask if anything else needs to be looked at in the wake of this reversion. The answer will be a resounding no on the basis that just leaving in the wand removal with no balancing act is more 'interesting'. It will never be looked at again. (This isn't even a dig, just a prediction) All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:42
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Boredeom is the ultimate challenge.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:42
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MOVIE MAJICK posted:Is it possible to play this without a num pad? What's the best setup for movement? O and tab. I bound them to extra mouse buttons.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:48
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Help I'm bad at crawl so I started a GaFi and then found Spellbinder in Crazy Yiuf's hut and now I'm done Orc, Lair, Swamp, Spider, Vaults:4, am just starting depths, and am invested enough in my character that I kinda sorta want to win instead of smucking up against something dumb (like has almost happened three or four times this game so far, [ASK] me about smashing my face into the Lernean Hydra in three separate attempts). Is there a guide somewhere on decent flows that lead to endgame? Last I played regularly all I can remember was going down until things got difficult, then Lair > Orc > Lair branch(es?) > ??????????????????????? I know that it's heavily dependent on gear etc but a general baseline wouldn't go amiss.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:49
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ChickenWing posted:Help I'm bad at crawl so I started a GaFi and then found Spellbinder in Crazy Yiuf's hut and now I'm done Orc, Lair, Swamp, Spider, Vaults:4, am just starting depths, and am invested enough in my character that I kinda sorta want to win instead of smucking up against something dumb (like has almost happened three or four times this game so far, [ASK] me about smashing my face into the Lernean Hydra in three separate attempts). Add a morgue .txt to your post and it might be easier to help, FYI. I know you're looking for more general advice but maybe more specific might be more useful to you?
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Dec 21, 2016 19:50
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Floodkiller posted:malmutate stuff I've said something similar before (though you explained it much better  ); stockpiling cure mutation as contingency for receiving any game ending mutation has been *the* strategy for a while.What I didn't like about rMut removal (and therefore dealing with malmutate) is that while you can opt-in and mutate yourself voluntarily, even if it works out you should expect to lose anything good by the time you're in Zot. I think that's a shame since good mutations, even if they're unambiguously good, provide variation in your character and it can open up different options in terms of what equipment you use or what options you take. As soon as you get hit by one of the top tier bad mutations from a OOF you'll drink cure mutation until it goes away.. along with everything else. I wouldn't mind as much if the baseline strategy to deal with malmutate changed somehow; at the very least I don't see why voluntary mutation roulette benefits should stay mostly early/mid-game (since right now you should be expecting to get rid of everything by the time you need to deal with OOFs).
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Dec 21, 2016 19:53
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Ugly John posted:Wait, wizard and explore modes as new player teaching tools?  If you really want to teach new players how to die less, the best thing you could do is raising the default autofight_stop/"hey dumbass you're dying" warning cutoffs. The default is 25% or something similarly low. Having the game yell at them earlier would drill the most important survival skill(running away sooner rather than later) into their heads, hopefully. ChickenWing posted:Help I'm bad at crawl so I started a GaFi and then found Spellbinder in Crazy Yiuf's hut and now I'm done Orc, Lair, Swamp, Spider, Vaults:4, am just starting depths, and am invested enough in my character that I kinda sorta want to win instead of smucking up against something dumb (like has almost happened three or four times this game so far, [ASK] me about smashing my face into the Lernean Hydra in three separate attempts). -Finish Depths. -Do Crypt and/or Elf if you haven't. This goes double if you start having trouble in Depths and need somewhere else to go. -Decide your third rune. Slime, Abyss, and V5 are all viable, but require different strategies. For slime you want a way to do tons of damage to TRJ as quickly as possible(powerful rods, god abilities, etc). For V5 you need a way to deal with the ambush - for a melee fighter, your best bet is stairdancing until a warden comes into view, then teleporting & dealing with the rest of the level from there. Abyss is a slog, but stealth is your friend. Bring a source of flight(which you already have if by Ga you mean Gargoyle). You can tell when you find a rune vault because it'll be marked by distinctive floor tiles. -Clear out zot. Have access to as much rF as possible for OOFs. You'll want a variety of resists in general, thanks to the dragons/draconians/electric golems. Bring a bolt wand or rod so you can snipe Moths of Wrath before they zerk things. -Grab the orb. -Win.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:01
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Mutations are one of my favorite things in DCSS. That extended punishes me for having good mutations that I would like to keep just encourages me to not play extended. It is the only cumulative system that the game will permanently and harshly gently caress with. Drain is temporary. Rot is temporary. To get rid of something like teleportitis, most characters will need a Cure Mutation potion, and that only works if the character has a minimal amount of mutations to start with, discouraging interacting with the system in the first place. I would like to play around in extended but malmutate alone ensures I won't.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:07
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The default red flashing health alert thing should definitely be higher, probably 50% or something. I wonder what the proportion of new players trying offline first vs jumping into webtiles. I still haven't because I can't deal with 30 second waits between key presses.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:11
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I like the dumb mummy challenge species specifically because I hate the food mechanic. Out of depth monsters should stop the dumb over resting thing. The only thing I can think of to keep it is what to do about spell hunger
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Dec 21, 2016 20:12
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I've heard a lot of people using the argument that losing the big 3 wands will hurt new players and that they're good learning tools.As a pretty new player, it isn't just a lucky heal wand or artifact drop that helps me learn the game, it's practice and learning when and how to get out of or avoid a fight that is too tough for me and learning the proper tactics to handle a tough fight that I think is worth the risk. If anything they're crutches that have led me to play worse when using them rather than cautiously analyzing my situation and acting accordingly. A healing/haste wand can help a new player get further than they normally would on skill and normal consumables alone, but it doesn't really help them grow as a player.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:14
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Malmutate should have a chance to fail that scales with the number of mutations you have. This encourages you to either not pick up muts and store cure mut pots, or go heavily into muts.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:14
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Would it fix endgame to make half of the enemies and themes not evil-related? Perhaps it's time to move beyond a binary morality.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:17
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The Shining One doesn't care for your shades of gray.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:22
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MOVIE MAJICK posted:Would it fix endgame to make half of the enemies and themes not evil-related? Perhaps it's time to move beyond a binary morality. Orb of Zot is a baby orb guardian, and you're taking it back to the surface for a fastfood restaurant called Zotlers.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:22
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Hey Floodkiller, if teleportitis and berserkitis are the malmuts you save your pots for and they're what's ruining the whole system (being so much worse than everything else, you just put up with everything else), why not simply remove those two mutations? Then malmut is meaningful and you have an incentive to play within the system and try and remove other muts according to what you're trying to achieve with your character?
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Dec 21, 2016 20:27
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shoutitis can be pretty crippling for some playstyles. Malformed or whatever can really suck if your primary defense is AC. If all the really bad ones got removed there'd be little reason not to always eat purple. (Always eat purple)
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Dec 21, 2016 20:32
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Wild Magic can kill you around the mid point of the game if is makes your main offensive spells to be no longer castable.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:35
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Carcer posted:I know it took me more than 1 death to get into the game. Turning god mode and whatever other cheats you want isn't going to teach a new player how to play at all, at best they'll see some new monsters and then learn nothing about how to deal with them other than that if you bump into monsters enough they die. Wizmode is also a good learning tool for things that need a lot of investment, like spells. You can just fire up a character and experiment to see exactly how Leda's Liquefaction works, or how good Upheaval is at high invocations, or why summoning a bunch of trees is a level 5 spell. And of course, there's the notorious... fsim...
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Dec 21, 2016 20:36
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Shoutits is something you can play with, you still have control of what you're doing, you just have to account for drawing more enemies. Malformed reduces your AC, whatever, there's too much AC anyway for most AC dependent characters. Quick trip report with the new sandblast. I had so many stones by the end of D1 it was never even remotely a concern. Based on this one game, I'd call it a buff to EE not a nerf. You start out with 30, and it looks like they've upped the spawning for stones on D1. Of course this is based on a single run (that ended badly in the sewers).
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Dec 21, 2016 20:36
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I would appreciate if the malmutes were just cosmetic with no impact on gameplay, something like skin color changes, or social anxiety.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:37
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Can Of Worms posted:Your original complaint was that the removal of the big wands slows down the progress of new players into the game (a claim that is itself debatable since new players should not be seeing those items often anyway), not about its impact on how players improve at the game. Most new players aren't interested in learning how to play well, they just want to see what the game has the offer. And wizmode is one of the best ways to do that! Want to find out how insane Shatter is? Just wizmode a character with 27 Earth and Spellcasting and 50 int and go to Vaults:5! Using wizmode to find out what the L9 killer spells do sounds like the worst thing in the world to me. The excitement I got from casting Shatter for the first time, and it was a real run (and my first caster win), was great. Same for firestorm, glaciate and tornado. No way would I have wanted that ruined by using wizmode. To me, it was almost as good as winning, just getting to the stage of being able to cast them and seeing what they do.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:39
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How do I do wizmode so I can actually see what is like to be a caster that gets past lair
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Dec 21, 2016 20:40
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Haifisch posted:If you really want to teach new players how to die less, the best thing you could do is raising the default autofight_stop/"hey dumbass you're dying" warning cutoffs. The default is 25% or something similarly low. Having the game yell at them earlier would drill the most important survival skill(running away sooner rather than later) into their heads, hopefully. 30%, and yeah, this seems reasonable. MOVIE MAJICK posted:I would appreciate if the malmutes were just cosmetic with no impact on gameplay, something like skin color changes, or social anxiety. too real 
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Dec 21, 2016 20:45
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Can Of Worms posted:Your original complaint was that the removal of the big wands slows down the progress of new players into the game (a claim that is itself debatable since new players should not be seeing those items often anyway), not about its impact on how players improve at the game. Most new players aren't interested in learning how to play well, they just want to see what the game has the offer. And wizmode is one of the best ways to do that! Want to find out how insane Shatter is? Just wizmode a character with 27 Earth and Spellcasting and 50 int and go to Vaults:5! The problem I've got with wizmode being used like that is that its the bits between starting the game and reliably getting shatter going is that hard part. Experimentation can only have good results when you know the rules of the system you're experimenting in, which means you need to have played the game enough to understand the implications of getting a lvl 9 spell. Wizmode is a tool for learning, yes, but probably one for players who have a grasp of the various different systems that make up Crawl. On the wand issue I conceded that the removal of the wands probably isn't going to do anything to make it harder for new players, and HW probably makes learning when to run harder since you can tab harder for longer if you have one.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:47
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Unimpressed posted:Using wizmode to find out what the L9 killer spells do sounds like the worst thing in the world to me. The excitement I got from casting Shatter for the first time, and it was a real run (and my first caster win), was great. Same for firestorm, glaciate and tornado. No way would I have wanted that ruined by using wizmode. To me, it was almost as good as winning, just getting to the stage of being able to cast them and seeing what they do.
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Dec 21, 2016 20:52
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Did you quote the right person?
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Dec 21, 2016 20:53
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PleasingFungus posted:too real The Imp jeers at you! Your social anxiety is crippling! You suddenly lose the ability to move!
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Dec 21, 2016 20:54
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Look at all these pussies, complaining that their crutches are gone. Why I've sucked at this game for over a decade and you don't see me winning. Giving up on trolling for a moment: I'd rather have the gods be the crutches a player relies upon to win, or in the case of Chei and Qazlal, the awesome death trap. I think the gods (and evocables) have come a long way towards this happening, though a lot of work remains. In particular, I'm currently impressed with the new Sif Muna and pleased by the overall older piety reform. much more fun to have sincerely interesting gods acting as renewable consumables. Of course some gods are good without this really being part of their design, throwing off my armchair quarterbacking. For instance, ashenzari doesn't really provide any lifesaving unless you count taking your hand off of 'o' to scry occasionally instead of automatically running into deathtraps, which may be a bit easier to spot in tiles.
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Dec 21, 2016 21:13
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Carcer posted:Did you quote the right person? Sure. If there's a real thrill to overcoming the challenges of the game to see late-game content like Shatter 'the right way', then removing high-level wands is helpful, because it enhances the challenges & hence the thrill when you overcome them. Pretty standard difficulty argument: the harder it is, the longer it takes to overcome, but the more satisfying it is when/if you do. I think that crawl was in a generally good place with difficulty in 0.19, and I don't know that it needs to be harder, but the dev rule to not worry too much about minor difficulty swings one way or another seems applicable. I think the impact of the wand removal is much overstated here; if anything, i wouldn't be surprised if it's a net winrate buff, since the increase in good consumables will make an impact in the hardest part of the game (the beginning), whereas the loss of Power Wands won't be felt until much later.
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Dec 21, 2016 21:18
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