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Chei is not a trap. Chei is an anti-trap.
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Dec 21, 2016 21:19
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chei is fun but bad outside of like, turncount speedruns
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Dec 21, 2016 21:22
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LordSloth posted:Look at all these pussies, complaining that their crutches are gone. Why I've sucked at this game for over a decade and you don't see me winning. FR: actual, literal crutches
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Dec 21, 2016 21:28
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The list of bad mutations on the Wiki is way out of date*, but the following are mutations that ruin games at lvl one: -Berserkitis -Teleportitis -Blurry Vision -Either of the reduced healing muts * (maybe y'all should make edit access easier so the first thing new players turn to stays updated)
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Dec 21, 2016 21:30
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Don't have to worry about reduced healing from Evocables anymore 
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Dec 21, 2016 21:31
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IronicDongz posted:chei is fun but bad outside of like, turncount speedruns chei is ludicrously powerful and good, though?
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Dec 21, 2016 21:41
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dpeg posted:Well, that's what we're running these polls for. And turns out that new players grow like mushrooms after rain. So many of them I certainly have no issue with nerfs and such. I advocated removing Haste 6-7 years ago now, arguing that it had a massively distorting effect on the balance of the entire game, so you'll hear nothing but cheers from me on that one finally happening. But, on the other hand, a lot of the other removals seem more like what one might call "streamlining," done more for a reason in and of itself than having anything to do with the balance of the game. But to what end? The reason I asked about a "final version" is that Crawl today is so different, in its philosophy, content, playstyle, and metagame, that it is barely recognizable compared to the crawl I first started playing and fell in love with 10 years ago. Comparing DCSS 0.1.5 to DCSS 0.20 is more like comparing Civilzation 1 to Civilization 5, despite the version numbering implying that the two games are under the same major version - as if DCSS 0.1.5 was like Civ5 at release, and DCSS 0.20 was like Civ5 "Complete" edition. Why have you never wanted to at least push out a version "1.0" before making more drastic changes to the gameplay?
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Dec 21, 2016 21:45
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Yeah, isn't he considered to be one of the top tier gods? Incredible stat buff while also having really solid invocations, just think before you move.
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Dec 21, 2016 21:45
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Many of my wins are actually with Cheibriados aside from that lovely initial period when you find an altar on D:2 and don't have any good tools to help out survive Grinder... Chei is good even outside of speedruns. Putting aside race/class combos and skilling choices, I can honestly say most people I've spectated have no clue how to properly play Cheibriados characters, though that usually doesn't extend to anyone who's managed to win once. There is more than one way to go about it, but overlooking TD is probably the biggest offender.
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Dec 21, 2016 21:54
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Luceid posted:chei is ludicrously powerful and good, though? Chei is great when you get him up and running but he's really bad for the short window where you join him but don't have the piety and invo skill to use his abilities. Since he's still slowing your movement speed down, its very easy to get killed because you tried to follow Chei and then ran into something nasty right afterwards. So he's a great god overall but a bad one for streaking.
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Dec 21, 2016 21:56
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Can Of Worms posted:This sounds like a pretty good argument to keep the big wands removed. To be clear, I wasn't opining one way or another on the removal of the wands. Just stating my opinion that trying spells out to see what they do in wizmode is sad.
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Dec 21, 2016 22:01
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So, some more thoughts after another run with EE where I didn't have nearly as many stones and ran out. Not having to wield stones is a buff of sorts since it allows you to take more chances on picking up a blue weapon and not being afraid of not being able to cast with stones anymore if it's cursed. Not being able to cast sandblast at all without stones is obviously a nerf which really only affects very low level chars since by time you get to L6/D3 or so you both have other options, and likely enough stones anyway. So, the only ones being really affected are very low level chars who really have few if any other options (a DD or Gr can melee a bit I guess). Now, the HOM in this case is not a strawman IMO, I always used to switch between using my stones or not, saving them for stronger enemies until I had 50 stones or so, so I would definitely be dropping them at first for weaker enemies. However, IMO again, this is not as big a deal as it's made out to be. First of all, you're not just having to do something tedious, dropping stones is also a bit dangerous since you can't control when you'll get them next as much as when you simply unwield the stones, so there's a meaningful choice here. Secondly, it's only something you'd be doing for the first 5 minutes or so of the game anyway. If it were up to me, I'd keep the casting from inventory but allow the casting without stones and let players drop if they want to. All in all, I don't really care, since even if the change kills my char, it will happen 5 minutes into the game so whatever. I guess if I were good enough to streak and cared about my win rate I'd be more upset. But there is a slight buff here (see above) merged with the nerf so meh.
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Dec 21, 2016 22:23
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Carcer posted:Yeah, isn't he considered to be one of the top tier gods? Incredible stat buff while also having really solid invocations, just think before you move. there are two groups of players. some think that chei is very good. some think that he is very bad. the exciting part is, the best players in crawl are split between those two groups! who's right? perhaps they both are...
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Dec 21, 2016 22:30
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Impossible. There's no middle ground in crawl, it was cut to make things easier for newer players.
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Dec 21, 2016 23:04
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Luceid posted:chei is ludicrously powerful and good, though? becoming more powerful in the lategame/endgame is just a "win more" thing. you get really big stats/damage/spells in big armor with chei, but it comes at a point where it doesn't really matter that much because you would be very strong anyways. I mean tbf when you say a god is "good", it kinda breaks down into... good at what? usually people assume you mean "maximizing winrate" but it could mean a few things good for winrate? gods that help you a lot in the earlygame(ex:fedhas, yred, oka, trog) are the best here, because that is when the game is the most dangerous. good for realtime speedrun? gods that help your survivability and power in a consistent way while requiring few button presses and little complexity(oka, trog) are good here, because the more buttons you press and decisions you make the more time you take. good for turncount speedrun? ely, chei and trog are all good here via reducing turns needed to remove monsters. good for zigs/other goofy extended powertrips? mak is real dominant here, though TSO, Veh, zin and Zin all good too. chei's better than qaz but still fairly niche. only really "good" at turncount speedruns and even then only barely makes it into the top 10 runs there, beaten by mostly ely LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 23:18
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LordSloth posted:
These are really good and funny. I like the idea of illusory loot that no longer exists and troll mesmerization a lot. Clownitis would also be annoying but manageable. Accursed is just a really good idea.
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Dec 21, 2016 23:20
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LordSloth posted:
I am complaining about wands and ignoring your mutation list I have won a NaHu of Chei and TD is fully sick even for a bow user thanks. Also Chei is considered bad because haste would almost always dish more damage then the bonus stats chei offered you and very few other gods help enemies catch up to you. Also I have died after clearing zot by punching the royal jelly in stone form. Opps. Chei is imo a win-more god: if the floor gave you enough stuff to win with him, you probably could have won atheist, as satisfying as slouch vault 5 is. I fully admit that had I not been able to use wand of healing I'd have died 8 runes into the game I 15 runed because my first and second takes on certain pan lords didn't wash out. (I stole lob's rune and killed him somewhere else where he didn't have enough room to keep pushing me away). I tried endgame maybe once every few years (usually reaching 7 runes,I cleared tomb once long ago) because ordinary characters don't cut it, and I had stockpiled a massive cache of consumables that, wands and, all I burned down to 3 healing potions and one teleport scroll. It's a problem with endgame being a grind with torment and enemies that require absurd amounts of damage to put down that often have packs of tormenters or hellfire with them. Devs have added units to hells even, but tools for the player generally remain what they can find on the floor and how well they use that, and I feel there are certainly builds that will no be able to look past 3 runes to the rest of the game knowing a large chuck of the on demand powerful healing in the game doesn't exist, let alone a method for tping out of silence or enough haste to use it as an escape option now and then. Call me cynical but long before I even grabbed my first rune I saw people saying endgame was a slog and I still see it as the game gets harder and harder as exp is squeezed out, important tools are removed entirely because everyone uses them, and new stronger monsters are overwriting pushovers (shrikes, juggs, iron giants, vault guard variants, naga sharpshooters all examples). I asked if people were winning too many games because it seems that the trend is to remove things that give players strong options rather then trying to design them in a way that they are situational. Sometimes to the detriment of what I thought was part of crawl's core gameplay: learning what was ahead, adjusting gear and coming up with a plan, executing your enemies, and doing so in an efficient manner because the unexpected happens sometimes and your real health is your consumable reserve.
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Dec 21, 2016 23:39
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IronicDongz posted:no god that makes you worse early on, when you need god powers most, is powerful This makes me want a God that has more powers the less piety you have. God only knows how that would work, though.
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Dec 21, 2016 23:50
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Ugly John posted:This makes me want a God that has more powers the less piety you have. God only knows how that would work, though. Xom already exists dude.
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Dec 22, 2016 00:02
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dpeg posted:Well, that's what we're running these polls for. And turns out that new players grow like mushrooms after rain. So many of them Forget randart gods, 2e need randart spells. A list of shape templates (self, touch, bolt, ball, chain, etc) and effects (damage of various types, damage-type related effects like sticky flame or movement freeze, all the hex debuffs, random blinks), all of it moderated by spell level in some way. So you could have a translocational firestorm that damages and blinks everything in a big smite-targeted area or a discharge that heals but also malmutates every enemy it arcs through. Obviously you'd do some end-result checking to make sure you haven't given the player a spammable self-heal or similar. Also, obviously, you should bring Singularity back.
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Dec 22, 2016 00:05
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Now I want random races that are just like a crazy mishmash of animals parts.
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Dec 22, 2016 00:13
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Unimpressed posted:Hey Floodkiller, if teleportitis and berserkitis are the malmuts you save your pots for and they're what's ruining the whole system (being so much worse than everything else, you just put up with everything else), why not simply remove those two mutations? I think the only mut that everyone could agree is a universal game ender at level 1 is teleportitis, because it is just that detrimental to have a chance to be pulled away from resting, into vaults, etc. that it is unfeasible to have anywhere other than the Abyss, where you won't notice the difference unless the rune is in sight. Every single other mutation is based on what you are playing. For example, I rarely cure berserkitis because I often play melee characters and I do so in a way that the random berserk won't really gently caress me over. The two spellpower/success rate mutations are game enders for very different characters (though maybe not as much with most of the Charms reformed or removed). Shoutitis is funny to me because I almost always play without sound in mind and do fine, but a character who needs stealth to pick and choose battles is hosed. Teleportitis is the only one where I cannot think of a single character who would be able to mostly ignore it or use it to their advantage. I would probably change teleportitis to teleporting you within 2-3 squares of a monster if you are within 10/25/40 (or full level) squares of it, based on the rank and current activation rules. Rank 1 only hurts your ability to run away or resting up while monsters are at the edge of LOS, but the higher levels will start pulling you everywhere like the current version.
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Dec 22, 2016 00:13
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I've realised that my favourite gods are acquirement gods. Acquirement gods in this case being any god that gifts you permanent benefits that are not intrinsically linked to their worship. Vehumet, Kiku, Gozag & Trog are usually my first choices for worship. Even the bad gimmick acquirement gods like Jivya feel more attractive than those without. The only non-acquirement god I really like is Makhleb. I basically never choose Ash, Fedhas, Yred etc Unimpressed posted:So, some more thoughts after another run with EE where I didn't have nearly as many stones and ran out. Like I said before I'm sure an EE can still survive without running out of stones if they ration themselves and use stone arrow more whenever they can get away with the mana inefficiency (much like noted fun playstyle of rationing arrows/bolts by using melee) but sandblast is very good and the number of times you want to cast it (or any other level 1 spell) outstrips the number of stones any player will find. I usually pick up a stack of stones on d1 and by the end of lair I usually have maybe 300 stones, in that same time my typical blaster character will use their level 1 spell 1000 times. e: Really, the stone rationing problem has always existed and is one of the reasons that EE are a pain to play (alongside LRDs targeting requirements which are more strategically interesting) but this just adds more weight to the problem. It wouldn't be a huge deal if EE got stone blasts all the time without needing ammo. Darox fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 00:16
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Solution: Allow stone free sandblast as long as there are no stones in the dungeon at all.
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Dec 22, 2016 00:25
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Darox posted:I've realised that my favourite gods are acquirement gods. Acquirement gods in this case being any god that gifts you permanent benefits that are not intrinsically linked to their worship. Vehumet, Kiku, Gozag & Trog are usually my first choices for worship. Even the bad gimmick acquirement gods like Jivya feel more attractive than those without. Ash gives me exactly what I need, information and hells of skill support.
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Dec 22, 2016 00:28
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I like most of the gods. I use some more than others but I've enjoyed playing them all. There are a few I really dislike though; Ashenzari: God of obnoxious inventory management. Makes you strong when you're fully cursed but I find playing like that really annoying. Nemelex: Same problem as Ash only even worse when it comes to item problems because you can't hold all the decks he gives you. Probably not as big of an issue now that she scales scales off invocations so you aren't always running evokers with her. But uh, that kind of just makes her worse. Fedhas: Basically worthless once you run out of fruit. Jiyva: Pain in the rear end to worship. Keeps me from ever wanting to build a character around her. Trog: Boring god for boring characters.
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Dec 22, 2016 00:37
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Ash is kind of annoying, but his perks are really good too. I'm currently trying to decide if it's worth using an artifact bardiche with -tele in my Ash naga game (I can't curse that poo poo obviously). It's a really good weapon, but part of the reason I went Ash was so I wouldn't have invest so much in my weapon skill. It's an interesting decision to have to make. The passive mapping is also loving great on a shadow stalker demonspawn.
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Dec 22, 2016 00:43
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Possible 'fixes' for malmutate, just throwing these out there: 1) Up the chance of potions of cure mutation removing malmutations over positive ones. Even if only slighty, if they were weighted toward a positive benefit, it might affect extended behaviour. 2) Benemut potions (if they don't already) could have a chance of removing/lessening malmutations. Removal of teleportitis could be seen as a beneficial mutation. 3) Potions of resistance also grant rMut. There's a certain point in even a 3-rune game where I end up never using these, as equipment provides enough protection, and this would at least provide a meaningful choice in endgame as when to strategically use them. If this went in, might have to revisit how commonly the potions turn up, of course.
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Dec 22, 2016 00:47
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I think malmutate is fine--it's just too easy to get hit by it. All it takes is a neqoxec wandering on screen. I'm a big fan of the OoD-style malmutate idea. Currently the effects are semi-permanent but inflicted the same way as regular temporary status effects. There needs to be something else to it.
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Dec 22, 2016 00:51
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Not the politics place
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Dec 22, 2016 00:52
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Replace malmutate with AF_MUTATE, which I just made up, and only has a chance to mutate if it actually does damage. This makes it more like item destruction. Malmutate is fine in the 3 rune game though, I wouldn't change it there. I didn't even wear rMut when I had the option unless I hadn't found faith or was using a god that didn't benefit from faith.
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Dec 22, 2016 01:01
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German Joey posted:But, a lot of the other [not Haste] removals seem more like what one might call "streamlining," done more for a reason in and of itself than having anything to do with the balance of the game. But to what end? For each removal, we genuinely believe it improves the game. All of them are discussed, often at length, and they aren't done on a whim, forum rhetorics nonewithstanding. Then, what are the reasons for removals:
[1] Who gets to decide whether something is a false or a proper choice? That's us. If it was everyone, the game would explode, and there'd be no Crawl whatsoever very quickly. quote:The reason I asked about a "final version" is that Crawl today is so different, in its philosophy, content, playstyle, and metagame, that it is barely recognizable compared to the crawl I first started playing and fell in love with 10 years ago. Comparing DCSS 0.1.5 to DCSS 0.20 is more like comparing Civilzation 1 to Civilization 5, despite the version numbering implying that the two games are under the same major version - as if DCSS 0.1.5 was like Civ5 at release, and DCSS 0.20 was like Civ5 "Complete" edition. Why have you never wanted to at least push out a version "1.0" before making more drastic changes to the gameplay? To properly answer this question, I just had a long look at changelog.txt and the following is a selection of the output from "grep -i 'remove' changelog.txt': code:Some observations: early on, a lot got added and almost nothing was removed, Crawl was in free growth mode. Later on, more things get removed, but still more are added. Occasionally, there's a sudden burst of new features (like the Forest monsters, or whole sets of new spells), and afterwards these get whittled down. I think this is normal -- think of it as a ludological equivalent of the Cambrian explosion. Most of the removals can clearly be traced back to the few principles I listed above: no-brainers, anti-tedium/interface, variety.
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Dec 22, 2016 01:06
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Replace malmutate with AF_MUTATE, which I just made up, and only has a chance to mutate if it actually does damage. it exists, though after the removal of pulsating lumps, only one monster has it. (guess who?)
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Dec 22, 2016 01:07
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Malmut is fine in three rune games because it never appears there. In fact sources of malmut were deliberately removed from the earlier parts of the game in the past, see pulsating lumps. Unless you go looking for it in slime the only places where malmut can appear in a three rune game is orbs of fire and rare cases like neq demon summons or shining eye shape shifters.
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Dec 22, 2016 01:08
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Darox posted:Malmut is fine in three rune games because it never appears there. In fact sources of malmut were deliberately removed from the earlier parts of the game in the past, see pulsating lumps.
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Dec 22, 2016 01:14
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Malmut does appear in a 3 rune game though; orbs of fire carry it. They are also the biggest problems with it from a design standpoint to me, because there's simply no way to avoid getting mutated by them. Unlike most other mutators, they are extremely tanky and also fast so the vast majority of characters can't burst them down. Its pure RNG whether or not orbs gently caress your character up. Now in most games picking up a few muts won't be the end of the world, but if you get one of the REALLY bad muts its a disaster. The only counterplay to this is just chugging cure mutation pots to get rid of it right away. I don't see how this is any more meaningful than trying to ignore the system with rMut. Either way, the penalties of these mutations are so severe the player is going to pursue the option that lets them avoid them altogether. Oh and I think hell effects can still give you red glow and there is literally no way to avoid mutating there unless you have tons of cancellation to chug.
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Dec 22, 2016 01:28
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Ugly John posted:This makes me want a God that has more powers the less piety you have. God only knows how that would work, though. Piety starts at max and decreases with turn count, but gets bumped up at milestones (getting runes, reaching X). God of Hurry the gently caress Up
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Dec 22, 2016 01:30
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I think in a 3 rune its ok and thematic. Its the price you pay and all that. You come out of the dungeon as a winner but changed. But maybe I role play too much.
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Dec 22, 2016 01:31
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Whaleporn posted:Call me cynical but long before I even grabbed my first rune I saw people saying endgame was a slog and I still see it as the game gets harder and harder as exp is squeezed out, important tools are removed entirely because everyone uses them, and new stronger monsters are overwriting pushovers (shrikes, juggs, iron giants, vault guard variants, naga sharpshooters all examples). I asked if people were winning too many games because it seems that the trend is to remove things that give players strong options rather then trying to design them in a way that they are situational. Sometimes to the detriment of what I thought was part of crawl's core gameplay: learning what was ahead, adjusting gear and coming up with a plan, executing your enemies, and doing so in an efficient manner because the unexpected happens sometimes and your real health is your consumable reserve. I might be wrong with regards to recent branch compressions, but with earlier shortenings I believe they scaled exp gain up to compensate. I'm not really feeling a difference in experience with my guys who manage to reach three runes, but I do feel it for sure on some of the slower leveling races. I will definitely agree with your point about monster variety adding more difficulty, but I've been playing a bit too long to give a proper perspective on that chunk of balance. I've found my depths splats decreasing since they were introduced till today, I've found my level of fatality in the vaults more or less staying steady after wardens and sentinels were added till today. Currently, I'm finding the most recent spike in fatalities is early game, I'm not quite adjusted to the new pace there. Lair can be a bit nasty since I've been seeing less chaff to ease me in. I had a pretty large gap of play between 0.18 to 0.19, and did absolutely poo poo during the tournament, though roped in a few wins afterwards. In other words, I really can't even authoritatively state my own opinion on the difficulty curve, let alone hypothetical newbie man. I will note that several games I've played I've found myself in situations that would have gone so much smoother with a few wands that I tossed aside in favor of rods. The current (0.19, not trunk) wands are at the very least OK, and a little bit more potent than I give them credit for. That won't help me from hating Lightning wands with a vengeance however.. From the discussions I've had, I haven't gotten the impression that people were seeing the endgame as a slog, though obviously people can have other opinions. Is there any chance they were talking about Extended and not endgame? If you're certain it's the endgame, then I think I need to sit down and reread some posts before I say anything more.
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Dec 22, 2016 01:42
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| # ? May 13, 2024 23:48 |
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dpeg posted:I was about to say that SA coped with the removal way better than the tavern: the first posting about it linked the commits (something which tavern didn't manage until now), and comments have been sane. But thankfully Spidiothing comes to the rescue! I don't think it's really that hard to understand why players for whom this game is Hard Enough Already might object to removing the three best wands, or why not being able to heal in lichform (or as a mummy), teleport out of Silence, etc might not go over well. So why get so lovely with people who are posting about it? LogicNinja fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 01:51
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