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BarbarianElephant posted:Wouldn't it be great if it could be sorted out in a court of law? It can be, death threats didn't become suddenly legal when Twitter was invented and on top of the fairly extensive extant legislation against them there's been a whole host of more or less vaguely-defined anti-cyberbullying statutes put in place and a bunch of high-profile prosecutions of especially nasty cases. It is more difficult for your county police department to track down a Redditor from the far side of the country who told you to "go kill urself bitch" than it is say the crazy guy on your front doorstep howling at you in person, but they can and do enforce those laws when someone brings something to their attention, and if you can actually identify the person yourself, like they used a personal account or email address, they will happily call up the county police on the far side of the country to go knocking on their door. Nevertheless, there's been a fairly stunning amount of willingness on the part of many harassees, especially those victimized for being politically outspoken leftists on Twitter, to protect the identity of their attackers and enable them to continue to send them threats and venom, all while wailing helplessly about it on social media. I'm not sure what law you could pass to reassure those folks about whatever terrible unspoken downside they're imagining exists to naming and shaming the kinds of creeps who get off to menacing people online. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 21:56
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:It is more difficult for your local police department to track down a Redditor from the far side of the country who told you to "go kill urself bitch" than it is say the crazy guy on your front doorstep howling at you in person, but they can and do enforce those laws when someone brings something to their attention. Not really. A lot of the times it's out of the jurisdiction of local police, but not important enough for the FBI, so the cases languish in the local PD somewhere below "Kid got his iPhone grabbed." There's not a lot of legal understanding of crimes that take place a long distance from the perpetrator, except if they involve the mail. A Wizard of Goatse posted:Nevertheless, there's been a fairly stunning amount of willingness on the part of many harassees, especially those victimized for being politically outspoken leftists on Twitter or wherever, to protect the identity of their attackers and enable them to continue to send them threats and venom, all while wailing helplessly about it on social media, and I'm not sure what law would avert whatever terrible downside they're imagining exists now to naming and shaming the kinds of creeps who get off to menacing people online. Bullshit. This is just another way of saying "rape victims asked for it and were no angels." They are wailing helplessly because they have no legal protections, but if they were to name their harassers, their harassers could *certainly* sue them.
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Dec 22, 2016 22:04
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wait wait back up lol do you actually think law works on the "aw shucks we can't get 'im now, that boy done crossed the state line!" principle? Except in cases where people violate the famous laws against publishing evidence of another person's criminal activities, a crime taken so seriously that the police suddenly for the first time ever know what to do if someone commits a crime in another US jurisdiction? all those poor cops in 2016, kicking dirt and throwing their hats on the ground cause child support deadbeats and fleeing bank robbers are not located within their county, but at least they can deal with the bastards who forward emails the original sender would prefer were secret
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Dec 22, 2016 22:10
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:wait wait back up lol do you actually think law works on the "aw shucks we can't get 'im now, that boy done crossed the state line!" principle? Except in cases where people violate the famous laws against publishing evidence of another person's criminal activities, a crime taken so seriously that the police suddenly for the first time ever know what to do if someone commits a crime in another US jurisdiction? I'm not sure how it works in legal theory, but whenever I've talked to people who have been harassed online, they've been to the police and got back puzzled stares and "Why don't ya just get off them internets if they're upsetting ya, honey/pal?" suggestions. These are not just the prominent SJWs you hate either, but ordinary people harassed by exes, too. I'm sure you will reply suggesting that everyone I've ever spoken to about this issue is some high-strung attention seeker making it all up. Remember that this is what people say about rape victims too. Before DNA evidence it was nearly impossible to prosecute rape, and people used to generally assume that the woman was making it all up for attention. Guess what? When DNA evidence arrived, a lot of "cold cases" were proved to have actually happened, and a lot of "attention seekers" were vindicated. Just because a case is hard to prove doesn't mean it didn't happen, comforting though that may be.
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Dec 22, 2016 22:19
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I get that this is a hot-button issue but I'd appreciate it if certain posters ITT would stop emailing me rape threats and pictures of the many knives they intend to stab me with. I cannot actually stop you as per a law I hope the incoming administration will reform my police department has been replaced by a cardboard cutout of Chief Wiggum, but I hope you will recognize the good-faith effort at maintaining a polite discourse I have made in refusing to publish any of your correspondence which unquestionably exists, and will respond in turn
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Dec 22, 2016 22:27
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:I get that this is a hot-button issue but I'd appreciate it if certain posters ITT would stop emailing me rape threats and pictures of the many knives they intend to stab me with. I cannot actually stop you as per a law I hope the incoming administration will reform my police department has been replaced by a cardboard cutout of Chief Wiggum, but I hope you will recognize the good-faith effort at maintaining a polite discourse I have made in refusing to publish any of your correspondence which unquestionably exists, and will respond in turn If you were raped, but couldn't prove it, and you confided in a friend, would you appreciate it if he said "Prove it in court or shut up, whiner."
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Dec 22, 2016 22:33
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If people are getting rape/violence threats by someone they know and the police are unwilling to act on it, that needs to change immediately. That's not even something that should be debated in this forum because nobody is going to disagree.
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Dec 22, 2016 22:41
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Kilano posted:If people are getting rape/violence threats by someone they know and the police are unwilling to act on it, that needs to change immediately. That's not even something that should be debated in this forum because nobody is going to disagree. "Just turn off your computer lol" has probably been posted a hundred thousand times on SA when the topic gets brought up.
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Dec 22, 2016 22:59
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Kilano posted:In order to implement these things you would need a way to identify online users. Currently they use things like IP addresses to find individuals, but this requires a significant amount of resources. Which means we would need enhanced identifying procedures from ISP's. I'm not saying it's the wrong direction, just that it would be a very large change and a lot of people aren't comfortable with the government tracking their internet usage. And by laws, are we only discussing US users? The government already has the ability to identify people who break currently existing laws using the internet. It's not really that hard. Also, notice that I did not say "anti-online harassment laws", I said "anti-harassment laws" - things like threatening phone calls often go unaddressed as well.
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Dec 22, 2016 23:15
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Sharkie posted:"Just turn off your computer lol" has probably been posted a hundred thousand times on SA when the topic gets brought up. I haven't seen that said here about rape threats and I definitely have never seen that said here about rape threats from someone the victim knows personally, both of which both society and law classify very differently than they do hurtful insults and/or actual rape. I expect most people would be pretty appalled if there turned out to actually be an unseen epidemic of criminal threats from stalker exes being systematically facilitated by a conspiracy of pro-rape hillbilly police departments, who despite the inherently heavily documented nature of internet threats have hidden the truth so thoroughly it is only now being broken wide open by a guy who just threatened to stab me in the rear end with a sword. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 23:19
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Sharkie posted:"Just turn off your computer lol" has probably been posted a hundred thousand times on SA when the topic gets brought up. yeah those people probably need to get punched in the dick then
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Dec 22, 2016 23:23
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youtube comments from a reddit troll are different than a DM on twitter from an ex-boyfriend
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Dec 22, 2016 23:26
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:I haven't seen that said here about rape threats and I definitely have never seen that said here about rape threats from someone the victim knows personally, both of which both society and law classify very differently than they do hurtful insults and/or actual rape. I expect most people would be pretty appalled if there turned out to actually be an unseen epidemic of criminal threats from stalker exes being systematically facilitated by a conspiracy of pro-rape hillbilly police departments, who despite the inherently heavily documented nature of internet threats have hidden the truth so thoroughly it is only now being broken wide open by a guy who just threatened to stab me in the rear end with a sword. -someone who has never been victimized or harassed, probably a man
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Dec 22, 2016 23:40
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OneEightHundred posted:It could go a lot of ways, and talking about it in terms of political power is difficult because the ability of public opinion to be reflected in policy has already been seriously undermined in the US. We'll soon have a Republican majority in both houses of Congress and the presidency despite a Democratic majority of voters in all of them. This election should make people seriously question the "inevitable shift leftward" refrain. Even if it's true, which it probably is, it's inviting counter-productive complacency and will take a very long time to materialize. Oh I agree - the shift leftward isn't inevitable. My point was that we currently have the ball rolling in our direction and while Trump's election isn't the push we wanted it's not going to stop the ball if we keep pushing it. I suppose that my view isn't "this is fine" but "this is not even close to the end of progressivism." OneEightHundred posted:You also need to consider that the right adapts too. People like Milo are an adaptation away from religion as the linchpin of American conservatism, trade isolationism is an adaptation, and so is the current "culture war" in ways already stated. There will always be people that want to set things back 10+ years, even if the target year moves forward. The interesting thing here is that while it's certainly true that the 'easily offended millenial' stereotype is catching on with people offended that they're called dumb and racist, its existence is more of an encouraging sign that they couldn't win the argument of "it's funny to call black people monkeys" and had to snivel and cry that they have a right to say it so MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH LIBERALS ARE TRYING TO TAKE IT. It's catching on with (wo)manchildren but far from the majority, hell just look at demographic breakdowns of political views and it's boomers loving fascists, their kids being moderate assholish and our generation has a bunch of pimple-faced nazis and a bunch of otherkin moonbats sure, but it's mostly liberal-leaning folks. Even Milo "Jewish and Nazi" Yabbadabbadoopolis is openly gay and brags about loving black dude dick. His followers have to change their stripes and now economic right-wingism has to also accept gay folks. Milo's opponents are edged out of the extremist fringe, meaning the right-wing economics and right-wing social views shitbags are now out of the game. Something that was telling was that Boosted_C5 (our resident D&D/C-SPAM Trumpkin) was sick of the GOP hammering on about abortion and gay marriage and trans bathroom laws. He wanted lower taxes and his guns. Modern Republicans might not like gay people or abortion or any of that poo poo but Trump's election shows they aren't actually interested in issues or consistency on policy. OneEightHundred posted:I guess the point is that things will progress, but I'm not counting on a backlash beyond the highly likely Trump-being-giant-fuckup scenario. And that's what I think can help. Trump has toxified the Republican brand. Check out poo poo like trumpgrets on tumblr where someone initially started documenting instances of right-wingers boohooing about Trump turning out to have *feigns shock* LIED TO THEM I think he's already doing damage to them in the long term. Whether the GOP establishment can ditch the stink when Trump is bringing in their establishment-Tea Partiers to his admin... well I'm not an oracle. But I'm nihilistically optimistic right now.
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Dec 22, 2016 23:57
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:I haven't seen that said here about rape threats and I definitely have never seen that said here about rape threats from someone the victim knows personally, both of which both society and law classify very differently than they do hurtful insults and/or actual rape. I expect most people would be pretty appalled if there turned out to actually be an unseen epidemic of criminal threats from stalker exes being systematically facilitated by a conspiracy of pro-rape hillbilly police departments, who despite the inherently heavily documented nature of internet threats have hidden the truth so thoroughly it is only now being broken wide open by a guy who just threatened to stab me in the rear end with a sword. Acting like stalking/harassment are rare or that police departments often don't take it seriously shows that you're either incredibly ignorant and sheltered, or you else you just don't really care or have some hosed up views on the subject you're ashamed to express. C'mon, try not being a coward and tell us how you really feel! 
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Dec 22, 2016 23:57
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here's your rape analogy, since what's rape good for if you can't trivialize it to score rhetorical points on your internet debate club gibbering about flamewars: it's like if instead of DNA evidence that was technically impossible to test for long years, all rapists left behind a form signed and dated in triplicate with a meticulous list of the statutes they'd violated. And among the normal run of rape cases being tried, or mistried, a small contingent of people popped up declaring they'd totally been raped by someone they'd had a beef with but they were keeping the documentation in a secret place and would never show it to anyone, for whatever reason. And a bunch of creepy weirdos concluded from that that society was overrun by rapists; and started loudly informing people susceptible to actual rape that going to the police for help was useless, as they were rapist sympathizers, and ever reproducing their evidence or showing it to other people who were likely to get left alone with their rapists would get them sued, somehow, so they'd better just knuckle under and take it and hope for some far-off day when lawmakers passed another bill reaffirming the illegality of rape. Thank the lord that folks like you are marginalized nuts on the internet instead of actually out in society misleading victims of sexual violence en masse. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Dec 23, 2016 |
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Dec 23, 2016 00:25
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"No you see it is the people who think that systemic obstruction to the successful prosecution of rape is bad who are the real patriarchs"?
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Dec 23, 2016 00:30
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:Thank the lord that folks like you are marginalized nuts on the internet instead of actually out in society misleading victims of sexual violence en masse. Just because you have this username doesn't mean you have to be such a gaping rear end in a top hat.
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Dec 23, 2016 00:32
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Tesseraction posted:Just because you have this username doesn't mean you have to be such a gaping rear end in a top hat. 
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Dec 23, 2016 00:34
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:here's your rape analogy, since what's rape good for if you can't trivialize it to score rhetorical points on your internet debate club gibbering about flamewars: it's like if instead of DNA evidence that was technically impossible to test for long years, all rapists left behind a form signed and dated in triplicate with a meticulous list of the statutes they'd violated. And among the normal run of rape cases being tried, or mistried, a small contingent of people popped up declaring they'd totally been raped by someone they'd had a beef with but they were keeping the documentation in a secret place and would never show it to anyone, for whatever reason. And a bunch of creepy weirdos concluded from that that society was overrun by rapists; and started loudly informing people susceptible to actual rape that going to the police for help was useless, as they were rapist sympathizers, and ever reproducing their evidence or showing it to other people who were likely to get left alone with their rapists would get them sued, somehow, so they'd better just knuckle under and take it and hope for some far-off day when lawmakers passed another bill reaffirming the illegality of rape.  Hmm, yes, these are clearly the words of a person who is legitimately concerned about stopping harassment and sexual violence. Tesseraction posted:Just because you have this username doesn't mean you have to be such a gaping rear end in a top hat. Flawless.
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Dec 23, 2016 00:45
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I'm interested in outing harassers and seeing them prosecuted. You're telling the harassed to shut up, wait for some made-up signal to start seeking aid, and backing up a guy making spurious legal threats about how going to anyone with evidence of harassment is somehow a crime. By their fruits you will know them.
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Dec 23, 2016 00:50
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:I'm interested in outing harassers and seeing them prosecuted. You're telling the harassed to shut up, wait for some made-up signal to start seeking aid, and backing up a guy making spurious legal threats about how going to anyone with evidence of harassment is somehow a crime. By their fruits you will know them. Literally the words of someone whose statements have never been and never conceivably will be discounted by the authorities because of the color of their skin, their presented gender, their visible disabilities, or their apparent economic status Like drat is it that much of a stretch to believe "cops are lovely and lazy sometimes, especially when it comes to helping people they see as 'suspicious'?"
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Dec 23, 2016 00:54
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Mister Olympus posted:Literally the words of someone whose statements have never been and never conceivably will be discounted by the authorities because of the color of their skin, their presented gender, their visible disabilities, or their apparent economic status That's a reason to be louder and get the cops on record loving around, not to shut victims up or limit them to vague, unsupportable innuendos. There's no guarantees you can shame them into doing their jobs, ever, but it's in deniability about being oblivious that authorities hide when the threats they wilfully ignored turn into violence. Publishing somebody's criminal threats against you, with everything you've got on where it came from, is perfectly legal, and the best method you have to turn their power over you into a weapon against them. I want that publicly known, and am incredibly suspicious of the motivations of anyone who'd fight that.
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Dec 23, 2016 01:02
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:That's a reason to be louder and get the cops on record loving around, not to shut victims up or limit them to vague, unsupportable innuendos. There's no guarantees you can shame them into doing their jobs, ever, but it's in deniability about being oblivious that authorities hide when the threats they wilfully ignored turn into violence. Publishing somebody's criminal threats against you, with everything you've got on where it came from, is perfectly legal, and the best method you have to turn their power over you into a weapon against them. I want that publicly known, and am incredibly suspicious of the motivations of anyone who'd fight that. It is also something which it is considered to be at the discretion of the individual concerned whether they want to pursue. The compassionate position perhaps is not to tell someone concerned about ending up worse off for sticking their head above the parapet "no you have to and if you don't your immoral"
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Dec 23, 2016 01:06
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Clearly were we truly moral we would all tell anyone nervous about speaking out "if you speak out the boogeyman will eat you"
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Dec 23, 2016 01:22
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:That's a reason to be louder and get the cops on record loving around. ah yes, the time honored "show the world cops doing bad things" strategy that ended police violence forever A Wizard of Goatse posted:Clearly were we truly moral we would all tell anyone nervous about speaking out "if you speak out the boogeyman will eat you" so rape victims should be required to recount the worst experience of their lives in open court, got it.
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Dec 23, 2016 01:25
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:I'm interested in outing harassers and seeing them prosecuted. You're telling the harassed to shut up, wait for some made-up signal to start seeking aid, and backing up a guy making spurious legal threats about how going to anyone with evidence of harassment is somehow a crime. By their fruits you will know them. I think it's super cool when "probably a man, deffo has never been victimized, harassed or raped" tells victims and survivors how to deal and what to do. Now tell us your positions on abortion and women's suffrage.
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Dec 23, 2016 01:29
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:Clearly were we truly moral we would all tell anyone nervous about speaking out "if you speak out the boogeyman will eat you" If only there were a position in the middle which emphasises the agency of the individual by seeking to support their decision?
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Dec 23, 2016 01:35
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"I totally support victims!" says the person who brought up false rape accusations out of nowhere.
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Dec 23, 2016 01:45
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:I get that this is a hot-button issue but I'd appreciate it if certain posters ITT would stop emailing me rape threats and pictures of the many knives they intend to stab me with. I cannot actually stop you as per a law I hope the incoming administration will reform my police department has been replaced by a cardboard cutout of Chief Wiggum, but I hope you will recognize the good-faith effort at maintaining a polite discourse I have made in refusing to publish any of your correspondence which unquestionably exists, and will respond in turn Is this real?? Have posters here actually threatened you?
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Dec 23, 2016 02:05
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Recoome posted:Is this real?? Have posters here actually threatened you? Unless he tells the cops he's probably lying for attention. See the theses of my friend Wi-- ...oh. Hmm. Awkward.
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Dec 23, 2016 02:23
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Tesseraction posted:Unless he tells the cops he's probably lying for attention. See the theses of my friend Wi-- ...oh. Hmm. Awkward. You uh, get what hes going for here right
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Dec 23, 2016 21:59
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I'll tell you what the problem is. It's loving nerds. The voter base that swung the election for trump were college-educated, above average income whites, both male and female. These aren't jocks, rednecks, or stoners. Those guys are still just hanging out at home like always. No, it's the loving nerds who went off to school to be engineers and computer people. But nerds aren't a new thing, so why are they suddenly being white supremacist shitheads? Well, it used to be that nerds were oppressed in this country. They'd get picked on and beat up for having snorty voices and weighing 95 pounds. That gave them a little perspective of what it's like to be under a boot. But in recent years, that perception changed. Now nerds are in the mainstream. There's TV shows with nerds as the main characters, women are encouraged to think being nerdy is "cute," cosplaying weirdos are encouraged to take pride in who they are instead of being deeply ashamed of the fundamental flaws in their character, nobody gives them poo poo for inventing and perpetuating memes, etc etc. Hell, I was for it too. Surely nobody deserves to be beat up on just for how they look and act. Equality and all that poo poo, it sounds great. Now look at us. These shitlords forgot what being oppressed was like. They got all up on their high horse and started thinking their opinions and thoughts were normal and not the deranged stream of consciousness of broken minds. They're on top of the world. And they've turned their cowardly nerdy ambitions in new directions now that they aren't struggling to get girls or open jars of peanut butter. "What if all the Mexicans coming over here really are rapists and muggers? How come black people should get special treatment when I busted my rear end in chess and math club to get into Brown? Have you heard of Ron Paul? I saw a black guy on the news who said he wanted to kill white people and that makes me scared.  " It's these fucks who make up the "alt-right." That's why we had to make a new term for them. That's the only thing that distinguishes themselves from the old school racists. You ask a racist what he thought of the new ghostbusters movie, and he doesn't have anything to say? White supremacist. If he says "Ahem, well I was perplexed with their decision to use women for the characters when traditionally it has been men who pl-" Alt-right. Lets not kid ourselves dnd, most of you reading this right now are nerds. So this gently caress up is on you. You need to police yourselves. And you don't have a whole lot of time, cause I'm already done with the poo poo. I'm already down to start shoving you all back into lockers. Lets see you vote for Trump when you're locked up in there. Get your poo poo together. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Dec 23, 2016 |
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Dec 23, 2016 22:37
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Don't worry, Volker. When Sessions goes more Ashcrofty than Ashcroft and starts shutting down loli porn, the nerds will realize their mistake.
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Dec 23, 2016 23:13
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Most of the people that post here seem like they fall under the moderate to very liberal side of things. Maybe the ADTRW crowd is more what your thinking
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Dec 24, 2016 01:04
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Kilano posted:Most of the people that post here seem like they fall under the moderate to very liberal side of things. Maybe the ADTRW crowd is more what your thinking Yeah, but they are a very slim minority among their peers. That's why I told them to police themselves. If you can't, we'll have no choice but to bring back collective punishment.
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Dec 24, 2016 01:11
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More people should never read forums populated by stupid people. Instead of reading, they should simply post, "I'm not reading anything here because your posts will be terrible, and you should feel bad for wasting your lives on the internet" every time they visit. If enough people do that, then these awful forums might disappear, and the mockers get the added bonus of feeling superior. Besides, feeling superior was what they were looking for anyway by reading forums and trying to find out where they fit in the grand spectrum of opinion. "Am I part of the majority, therefore validating my views? Or am I part of an enlightened minority, and the majority just hasn't caught on yet?" So posting this line and moving on is win/win. Doing this while wearing sunglasses might also help.
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Dec 24, 2016 04:48
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Volkerball posted:Lets not kid ourselves dnd, most of you reading this right now are nerds. So this gently caress up is on you. You need to police yourselves. And you don't have a whole lot of time, cause I'm already done with the poo poo. I'm already down to start shoving you all back into lockers. Lets see you vote for Trump when you're locked up in there. Get your poo poo together. Will there be a distinction between nerds and geeks, dorks, or dweebs?
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Dec 24, 2016 05:04
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Man, Volkerball's rant really rings true to me. I'm sure it's not that simple, but it felt good to read that. I'm struggling with a morbid obsession with /pol. And I mean struggling. I used to think of it as vigilance, but the fact that I look at it so often is really stressing me out. Fortunately since the election I've stopped -for the most part. /pol freaks the poo poo out of me for a whole lot of really hosed up reasons, but one weird thing is that the whole place is rife with this counterfeit intellectualism. Lots of behavior stereotypically associated with people who are autistic -and more generally nerds. Reminds me of high school debaters: pedantic, petty, nihilistic. There's the obsessive, self-imposed myopia, the constant mistaking of logic for wisdom, and the preference for zingers, gotchyas, and general smart-assery to any sort of sincerity or substance. The sort of discourse with which stupid people would make play they are smart. It's a stifling, intellectual dead zone over at /pol, so of course they go to great lengths to present it as otherwise -violence porn and memes aside. So much self-congratulatory bullshit surrounding their "academic" substance. What's scary is that the way they talk and the things they say are just a stone's throw from the guys I grew up with. When I think about nerd culture as I've lived it, the thwarted masculinity, the atomization, the obsessive consumerism, the misogyny, it suddenly makes sense. Yes. Of course. It was a right-wing sub-culture all along.
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Dec 24, 2016 05:35
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PostEldar posted:Man, Volkerball's rant really rings true to me. I'm sure it's not that simple, but it felt good to read that. I'm struggling with a morbid obsession with /pol. And I mean struggling. I used to think of it as vigilance, but the fact that I look at it so often is really stressing me out. Fortunately since the election I've stopped -for the most part. as a black nerd who's also been crippled with a morbid fascination with white nationalism, my heart goes out to you
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Dec 24, 2016 06:41
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