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DSA has had bylaws barring members of democratic centralist organizations from joining but I know that the Austin chapter refused to include it in their bylaws and national was pretty much like "ok whatever" it's a political organization, not a party so join whatever groups you want imho
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Dec 22, 2016 18:21
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:That's, uh, pretty weird. I understand the "never work again" part, but you could do that on a fifth of that, easy. You secretly long to join the parasitic class? Is your socialism just sublimated envy? Generally when people say that they mean they'd pursue hobbies and interests fulfilling to them as a person as opposed to finding their meaning by grinding away hours for someone else's profits.
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Dec 22, 2016 18:26
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jarofpiss posted:DSA has had bylaws barring members of democratic centralist organizations from joining but I know that the Austin chapter refused to include it in their bylaws and national was pretty much like "ok whatever" Are there any injunctions against members of socialist or communist parties, or do you have to be a Democrat? Right now the DSA is little more than a club, and if it weren't for Jacobinmag they wouldn't really matter at all.
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Dec 22, 2016 18:44
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Are there any injunctions against members of socialist or communist parties, or do you have to be a Democrat? Right now the DSA is little more than a club, and if it weren't for Jacobinmag they wouldn't really matter at all. there's no injunction against other parties, tho there seems to be an entryism focus towards the democratic party. I think that strategy is mostly based off the fact it's really the best way to actually win an election. there was a declared DSA member who won an election in maine's house of rep as a democrat this year.
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Dec 22, 2016 18:48
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Are there any injunctions against members of socialist or communist parties, or do you have to be a Democrat? Right now the DSA is little more than a club, and if it weren't for Jacobinmag they wouldn't really matter at all. none that are enforced as far as I know. I'm also a cpusa member also and they haven't thrown me out. Our local has way more legit leftists than social democrats. It's a good framework to use to help sympathetic people cut their teeth on socialism, but it's definitely seen as a democrat group by other leftists (which is not the case in my experience). This probably differs by region. The two largest groups in my area are dsa and cpusa and we have been working closely together for a while now. There are other left groups but they tend small and kind of sectarian so they have a tough time organizing. I'm less concerned about ideological purity than being in a group that can actually grow and help build a class movement.
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Dec 22, 2016 18:55
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jarofpiss posted:I'm less concerned about ideological purity than being in a group that can actually grow and help build a class movement.
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Dec 22, 2016 18:58
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Fiction posted:It is pretty funny to see people freaking out about twitter arguments damaging "left unity" this is a bunch of pages back but the alt-right and right wing populism have been finding great success on social media and recruiting people in what is arguably one of the most effective ways (directly through their phone) and to see it dismissed as unimportant because of internet-addict social shut ins who do nothing but tweet is alarming e: the quoted post is, in fact, from this very page a pale ghost fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 21:24
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Internet messaging is important but I don't think internet fights are, particularly when they take place on twitter. Weird twitter seems to have been a big area of recruitment for DSA recently, as its "celebrities" already had some connections to the org. I know its happened on a smaller scale with different left groups too. Twitter's ability to engage people is great, but it's really hard for actual discussion. Subtly is gone if you can only use 140 characters, so discussions break down quicker than they normally would. Even at its worst though it ends with a few accounts blocking each other, rather than sectarian splits or destroyed campaigns.
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Dec 22, 2016 21:33
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My issue with how left wingers and left liberals debate on twitter is that it leaks onto other social media platforms and then into real life a slew of left-ish facebook groups exploded recently for people to gently caress around and laugh as a coping mechanism and the inevitable infighting that seems to take place gives off the impression that these people all hate each other more than they hate the people who literally want to kill them who would want to be recruited by any organization that allows members to tear each other to shreds on public platforms over lapses of judgement or misunderstandings over social issues that are constantly evolving?
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Dec 22, 2016 21:41
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Omar al-Bishie posted:My issue with how left wingers and left liberals debate on twitter is that it leaks onto other social media platforms and then into real life Sounds like the GOP circa May 2016 to me, with less of the whole evolving thing
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Dec 23, 2016 13:30
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Where can I find some analysis of what Bookchinist "democratic confederalism" actually means in practice?
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Dec 23, 2016 22:11
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Bookchin was a major influence on Occalan, so Rojava and Turkish Kurdistan are partly modeled on his ideas.
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Dec 24, 2016 00:23
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Do we really feel okay with supporting a faction in Syria propped up by U.S. imperialism? Granted Assad is totally the same for Russian imperialism and arguably worse, but there have been many Kurdish terror attacks against civilians
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Dec 24, 2016 01:02
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Yossarian-22 posted:Do we really feel okay with supporting a faction in Syria propped up by U.S. imperialism? Granted Assad is totally the same for Russian imperialism and arguably worse, but there have been many Kurdish terror attacks against civilians wow it sounds like this violent revolutionary group fighting a war may not Play By All The Rules as set by the worlds most moral army
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Dec 24, 2016 01:11
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:wow it sounds like this violent revolutionary group fighting a war may not Play By All The Rules as set by the worlds most moral army it's ok though you can use the same snide argument to defend al-qaeda in their righteous struggle against the twin tyrannies of assad and female literacy
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Dec 24, 2016 01:13
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The United States' state department supports Rojava?
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Dec 24, 2016 01:17
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Yossarian-22 posted:Do we really feel okay with supporting a faction in Syria propped up by U.S. imperialism? Granted Assad is totally the same for Russian imperialism and arguably worse, but there have been many Kurdish terror attacks against civilians The US government militarily supporting a communist autonomous zone is as good as it's ever going to get, even if it's opportunistically in the interests of American imperialism. The YPG has kept their conflicts with the SAA to the minimum necessary, and they're primarily focused on liberating territory from ISIS, so I don't see what the big deal is. Also, while YPG units and their allies have carried out a few atrocities, they're making a real effort to create a non-sectarian polity which incorporates Arabs and Shias in good faith. Civil Wars are inherently messy affairs, and you're never going to find a conflict as clean cut as the American Civil War.
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Dec 24, 2016 01:22
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:wow it sounds like this violent revolutionary group fighting a war may not Play By All The Rules as set by the worlds most moral army YPG expelled like 5,000 Arabs from a village last year and has authoritarian tendencies and a clear bourgeoisie despite "libertarian municipalist" Boochkin pretenses. I support their right to self defense but I think class war alway should always take precedence above "people's war" I'm an ultra-leftist tho so I'll probably never be happy
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Dec 24, 2016 01:24
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Dec 24, 2016 01:26
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFbEWL3kaK8
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Dec 24, 2016 01:30
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Is the American civil war only clean cut if we ignore Native Americans
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Dec 24, 2016 01:37
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Rated PG-34 posted:Is the American civil war only clean cut if we ignore Native Americans Yeah, this is what the recent leftist redefinition of the union forces as genuinely revolutionary seem to ignore a bit. The republicans were real quick to set up the foundation for the genocide of the plains tribes when the south left. Not that the confederacy was pro-native or anything, they just disagreed with who should get their land. Like, the civil war republicans were good in challenging slavery, but they were still on board with the US as a genocidal force against the native americans. I think we can celebrate the one aspect, but the other should still be addressed. Was service in the civil war tied to a man's eligibility for land grants in the west in any way?
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Dec 24, 2016 01:50
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By "clean cut" I mean the conduct of each respective side to each other. Not that the Union was somehow lenient on Native Americans. Natives fought their own factional war in Indian Territory where they took respective Unionist and Confederate sides.
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Dec 24, 2016 01:53
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https://twitter.com/indecisivelefty/status/810986639090712576
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Dec 24, 2016 02:20
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Bookchin was a major influence on Occalan, so Rojava and Turkish Kurdistan are partly modeled on his ideas. I get that, I guess what I'm asking is whether anyone has had enough familiarity both with Bookchin's work and the reality on the ground in Rojava to write about how theory has influenced practice.
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Dec 24, 2016 02:58
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:I get that, I guess what I'm asking is whether anyone has had enough familiarity both with Bookchin's work and the reality on the ground in Rojava to write about how theory has influenced practice. That's an extremely tall order. Anyway, I kind of want to post about this somewhere. https://twitter.com/TheWarNerd/status/812365825428652032 Is there a good thread to post about this? I want to make sure that my brain breaking down is a sane response, and not a sign of stroke. Because if this is the kind of depravity we can expect from liberals then we're apocalyptically hosed.
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Dec 24, 2016 07:12
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The Times had to run a correction after saying half a million had died in Aleppo. Warning that the article includes pictures of dead children. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/14/world/middleeast/kimmelman-images-of-aleppo.html?_r=0 quote:Correction: December 17, 2016 Apparently Washington doesn't care about the war in Syria because Americans are racist. Edit: I mean we are, but that seems to drive out wars most the time. Atrocious Joe fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Dec 24, 2016 |
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Dec 24, 2016 07:24
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Just imagine being a member of Human Rights Watch, thinking that all your hard work and dedication might be making the world a better place. Then your director for 31 years sends out that tweet.
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Dec 24, 2016 07:33
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Is there a good thread to post about this? I want to make sure that my brain breaking down is a sane response, and not a sign of stroke. Because if this is the kind of depravity we can expect from liberals then we're apocalyptically hosed. Thread? Yes, there's one in D&D where you can chat with very principled people like that who choose ISIS as the lesser evil. Good? It's up to you to decide that, they tell me the thread has a "pro-truth bias". Be careful with what you say about Russia. 
Morzhovyye fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Dec 24, 2016 |
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Dec 24, 2016 07:59
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That seems like a fairly standard idea of the origins of extremism, identical in its theoretical structure to the idea that American meddling produces terrorist blowback against the United States. He's not endorsing ISIS any more than your standard intervention-critic is endorsing the Russian government.
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Dec 24, 2016 11:57
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yeah that seems to be more "jesus christ guys loving COBRA cares about syria more than you do" than anything
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Dec 24, 2016 12:15
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It was opposing the Colombian peace deal that actually startled me about HRW. I wonder if there were any internal recriminations after it failed.
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Dec 24, 2016 13:00
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He's lionizing ISIS in their role as an opposition to Assad while downplaying the "moderate rebels" as if they were not truly "standing up" against Assad. Not to mention that in the same breath he's scolding the Pentagon for failing to remove Assad. If only ISIS is standing up against Assad and he wants Assad gone then he's gonna get Iraq 2.0. What a loving bizarre thing to say as the head of a human rights organization.
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Dec 24, 2016 13:19
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At least one liberal I know is very keen on making Aleppo a "this is what blanket noninterventionism gets you!" case.
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Dec 24, 2016 13:49
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I don't follow this whole Syrian civil war thing besides what I hear on NPR, so correct me if I'm wrong here: are we trying to get rid of Assad by arming Daesh fighters in hopes that they'll topple the government and then something something freedom? cuz that seems like a pretty bad move probably
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Dec 24, 2016 15:48
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I think the lesson people need to take from Syria is less who is involved in the conflict and more why they're even fighting in the first place. Didn't a poo poo ton of people try to move to the cities to find work after a bunch of crops died? Like a ton of the people just trying to flee this part of the world where the conflict is happening were on the move before the first shots were really fired, and I feel like people are mostly too worried about whether this or that intervening international army is the good guy (sad story, there probably isn't one, or if there is one it will be agreed upon by some historians like 100 years from now when they're rebuilding) and whether you know, maybe regional stability across the globe is actually super in danger in general and we're just looking at the future holds for Colorado Springs 70 years from now.
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Dec 24, 2016 16:03
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"oh poo poo the unthinkable has happened and a society that had issues but was functioning has become possibly the worst thing that's happened in a long time and the effects of climate change on human population density and movement that are undeniably a factor in this, factors that will someday affect literally every person and part of the world, probably aren't even worth considering, and I think Russia should continue as-"
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Dec 24, 2016 16:08
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BUSH 2112 posted:I don't follow this whole Syrian civil war thing besides what I hear on NPR, so correct me if I'm wrong here: are we trying to get rid of Assad by arming Daesh fighters in hopes that they'll topple the government and then something something freedom? yeah that's the short version. nasty, nasty proxy war to destroy the syrian state and society.
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Dec 24, 2016 16:27
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BUSH 2112 posted:I don't follow this whole Syrian civil war thing besides what I hear on NPR, so correct me if I'm wrong here: are we trying to get rid of Assad by arming Daesh fighters in hopes that they'll topple the government and then something something freedom? We're not arming daesh (intentionally), that would be silly. We're arming Al Qaeda.
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Dec 24, 2016 16:44
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The United States is overtly backing the Syrian Kurds fighting ISIS and more covertly backing the non-Kurdish rebels fighting the Damascus government. This second rebel group has been effectively dominated by Islamic extremist groups (some AQ aligned) for a long while. Just how much aid the United States provided, to groups of what ideological tendency, at what stage of the war, is I think the most significant point of dispute between the 'establishment' and 'critical' narratives on the Syrian civil war once you get past litigating whatever particular atrocity. Crudely, America-apologism claims American support was negligible and this very lack of support is responsible for the dominance of extremist groups with plentiful support from Saudi Arabia, while America-opposition has the US as fairly happily assisting religious radicals and being involved trying to destroy the Syrian state from the very start of the protests. I haven't taken the time to pick out just what's true, because I'm lazy. (excitingly, the Damascus government is also accused of giving the extremists effective assistance, to undercut the ability of the rebels to gain support from the population and overseas) The Kurds have a decent claim to 'least bad faction,' with a few accusations of sectarian war crimes to their name but fewer of being murderous dictators, extremist reactionaries or foreign invaders. Most Western observers, establishment or critical, are willing to root for them in their war against ISIS, though if the D&D thread is any guide the most extreme anti-Assad types are starting to turn on them for trying to come to terms with an increasingly dominant Damascus rather than throw themselves into the breach for the sake of radical rebel groups they mutually despise.
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Dec 24, 2016 20:43
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