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I should get better friends, patishes and friends. Wish I had the time to do a blind Darklands LP...
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Dec 23, 2016 11:30
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I'd have thought the drink of christian unity would be wine?
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Dec 23, 2016 14:30
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Ceciltron posted:I'd have thought the drink of christian unity would be wine? * grape juice
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Dec 23, 2016 15:03
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pidan posted:* grape juice In Acts, when the Holy Spirit descends at Pentecost, all the Christians are speaking different languages and rolling around and Peter's probably over there playing the Hammond Organ can I get an AMEN so they're accused of being drunk on new wine. Because ancient Welch's was some good poo poo.
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Dec 23, 2016 15:22
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Ceciltron posted:I'd have thought the drink of christian unity would be wine? i mean if you have to get all literal about it a church near me has some kind of "dads and beer" social/study group where they go tour breweries. this was described to me by the group leaders as "a group for dads! and people who are going to become dads. also uncles. and people who have a dad, or had one. heck, just like, show up if you want to, we're not strict about it"
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Dec 23, 2016 15:22
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The Phlegmatist posted:In Acts, when the Holy Spirit descends at Pentecost, all the Christians are speaking different languages and rolling around and Peter's probably over there playing the Hammond Organ can I get an AMEN so they're accused of being drunk on new wine. We're not drunk, it's only nine in the morning (you should see us after lunch).
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Dec 23, 2016 15:37
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Lutha Mahtin posted:i mean if you have to get all literal about it "Theology on Tap" is a thing for both Catholics and the Reformed. Don't accidentally go to the wrong one though or someone will shank you with a broken beer bottle while screaming objections to theological doctrines you've never even heard of. I was Presbyterian forever and I still don't understand what the hell federal vision even is.
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Dec 23, 2016 16:15
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The Phlegmatist posted:"Theology on Tap" is a thing for both Catholics and the Reformed. Don't accidentally go to the wrong one though or someone will shank you with a broken beer bottle while screaming objections to theological doctrines you've never even heard of. A bit of googling makes it sound really good!  theopedia posted:Union with the (visible) church automatically implies union with Christ in the Federal Vision teaching. This over-objective view of the covenant fails to distinguish between covenantal union in the visible church from the saving union of the invisible church. quote:The FV perspective involves incipient sacramentalism. Critics see the FV imputing the efficacy of the thing signified to the sign itself, whether in regard to baptism or the Lord's Supper. The sacraments can communicate blessings apart from faith, and baptism appears to be a converting ordinance. http://www.theopedia.com/federal-vision doesn't seem to like the idea that covenantal union could be saving, or agree that an invisible church is silly or that sacramentalism is awesome, though. 
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Dec 23, 2016 16:44
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Yeah it's basically Calvinists playing around with Catholicism, as far as I understand it. I mean, poo poo, you've got ex opere operato sacraments and participation in the visible church necessary for salvation so it's a wonder that none of the FV proponents haven't jumped into the Tiber and swam across already.
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Dec 23, 2016 16:53
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zonohedron posted:A bit of googling makes it sound really good!
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Dec 23, 2016 16:53
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The Phlegmatist posted:Yeah it's basically Calvinists playing around with Catholicism, as far as I understand it. HEY GAL posted:it's bad, because the guy who introduced the idea is super culty and horrible. Possibly the lack of swimming (Tiber or Bosphoros) is due to the super-culty-horribleness. Edit: Ew. "He stated for example that: "slavery produced in the South a genuine affection between the races that we believe we can say has never existed in any nation before the War or since."" 
zonohedron fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Dec 23, 2016 |
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Dec 23, 2016 16:55
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zonohedron posted:Possibly the lack of swimming (Tiber or Bosphoros) is due to the super-culty-horribleness. Well, y'know, can't judge theological ideas from the character of whom they originate from. *looks at primary source text* okay no burn it to the ground
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Dec 23, 2016 17:19
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I kinda envy y'all for once. Protestantism in the American South has a very strong impulse towards banning alcohol completely.
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Dec 23, 2016 17:22
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told youCythereal posted:I kinda envy y'all for once. Protestantism in the American South has a very strong impulse towards banning alcohol completely. edit: http://www.salon.com/2016/12/23/the-religious-right-has-an-unholy-crush-on-vladimir-putin_partner/ HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Dec 23, 2016 |
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Dec 23, 2016 17:29
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HEY GAL posted:different Protestant. These are Calvinists, not Baptists or Methodists. I know, thus I said Protestantism in the American South, which mostly means the SBC and similar-minded groups.
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Dec 23, 2016 17:36
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Cythereal posted:I know, thus I said Protestantism in the American South, which mostly means the SBC and similar-minded groups.
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Dec 23, 2016 17:48
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it wouldn't surprise me if some of the teetotaling culture has rubbed off on Catholic southerners. at the very least they will probably modify their behavior sometimes to conform to the general dos and don'ts regarding alcohol in their local area, even if they themselves still drink it in the Upper Midwest, one indicator of a local congregation's probable views about alcohol is the national heritage of the parishioners and the local area. the joke is that you can tell whether a Lutheran church is Norwegian or German just by going to a wedding. if there is no alcohol besides the Communion wine, even at the reception, then it's a Norwegian church. the German church will have a keg set up in the basement
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Dec 23, 2016 17:58
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HEY GAL posted:Do you know when and why Baptists became strongly anti-alcohol? It grew out of the temperance movements of the nineteenth century, which were in large part a backlash against the social upheaval and perceived social and moral decay that accompanied the Industrial Revolution and urbanization, and then amplified by the Second Great Awakening and the popular message of striving for holiness and purity in your everyday life. Ready access to alcohol was blamed for not just drunkenness but all manner of social problems, and an outright prohibition movement arose from the Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, and American Catholics (believe it or not, one of the biggest early voices in the religious prohibitionism movement was an Irish Catholic priest) - the Lutherans and Anglicans didn't care for it much. The Southern Baptist Convention was a vocal supporter of the Prohibition Amendment, and continues to advocate abstaining from alcohol today, though it is one of only a few large religious organizations that really make a point of it. The Southern Baptist view as a general rule today is that alcohol is not inherently sinful or inimical to being a Christian, but that alcohol impairs one's judgment and generally makes it easier to sin - to say nothing of actual alcoholism and the effects it can have on the self and the community, and thus is best avoided entirely by good Christians.
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Dec 23, 2016 17:59
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Cythereal posted:and American Catholics (believe it or not, one of the biggest early voices in the religious prohibitionism movement was an Irish Catholic priest)
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Dec 23, 2016 18:05
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the story goes that lots of irish/german immigrants were all for Prohibition because a) they'd seen the toll super heavy drinking creates and b) they didn't think they were going to ban beer too
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Dec 23, 2016 18:13
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In my undergrad I literally took too many English courses for them to allow me to take any more, so I had to substitute an American history class on the 1860s for an American lit class. From how the professor described it, everyone in America was drunk all the time, which kind of helps explain the scope of the problem. e: wrong decade Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Dec 23, 2016 |
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Dec 23, 2016 18:15
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The temperance movement led to the development of some really clever and ingenious rhetorical devices too, because if something was morally bad, it clearly would be in the Bible. The trick was in figuring out how to reconcile the vague and contradictory references to alcohol in the texts, while often simultaneously making sure to not upset the general doctrines of interpretation you adhered to.
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Dec 23, 2016 18:16
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StashAugustine posted:the story goes that lots of irish/german immigrants were all for Prohibition because a) they'd seen the toll super heavy drinking creates and b) they didn't think they were going to ban beer too Yep. Actually before we got the federal amendment there were a number of states who decided to vote to prohibit the sale of alcohol. And as the story goes, a number of people were surprised when the local bar closed down. Because, you see, they were legislating against the drunk man passed out in the alleyway. Not themselves. Lutha Mahtin posted:The temperance movement led to the development of some really clever and ingenious rhetorical devices too, because if something was morally bad, it clearly would be in the Bible. The trick was in figuring out how to reconcile the vague and contradictory references to alcohol in the texts, while often simultaneously making sure to not upset the general doctrines of interpretation you adhered to. Oh yeah, of course. I've heard every argument about grape juice in the Bible, and, well, none of them make any sense. I'm St. Paul warning you of the dangers of drinking too much grape juice. The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Dec 23, 2016 |
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Dec 23, 2016 18:21
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Tias posted:Aw, you my homie "On The Creation of N------" No. Lovecraft wasn't "a creature of his times". He took racism to a Stormfront level, not just a "well, it was in the air" level.
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Dec 23, 2016 18:25
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:From how the professor described it, everyone in America was drunk all the time, which kind of helps explain the scope of the problem.
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Dec 23, 2016 18:29
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HEY GAL posted:it's bad, because the guy who introduced the idea is super culty and horrible. a lot of lovecraft's fiction was about his anxieties about race mixing and the possibility that he had ancestry that wasn't lily-white i'm just saying if you can ignore the racism to enjoy lovecraft i'm not seeing why theology on tap is bad because of it's founder. it's bad because it fails to challenge the participants and usually just tells them things they already want to hear, especially because the types of people who would go to the event are the people who already agree with the catholic church (or at the very least don't have as complicated a relationship with church teachings as others) and so it just becomes one big conservative circle jerk where an auxiliary bishop saying the catholic church doesn't endorses republicans and shouldn't excommunicate catholic democrats is considered a blasphemer
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Dec 23, 2016 18:41
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Christmas approaches: I heard my dad singing the alleluia from mozart's exsultate iubilate while shaving this morning. Our church has two masses every sunday and holy day, one in french, one in english.They alternate yearly the midnight mass time slot, so this year we're singing around 10:30. This is fun because when we get home we enjoy the réveillon, the giving of presents, snacking and drinking to celebrate the birth of Christ instead of on the morning, when everyone is busy bundling into cars to go see family. Any of y'alls traditions include celebrating Christmas at midnight rather than the morning?
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Dec 23, 2016 18:44
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wait, ceciltron, where are you from
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Dec 23, 2016 18:52
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HEY GAL posted:this was the case in the period i study as well A lot of the thinking behind the original religious prohibitionism movement remains in the American South today, because the conditions didn't change all that much. The American South is still one of the most impoverished parts of the industrialized, Western world, and poverty throughout history tends to mean alcohol and drugs are a problem. This is a particularly big deal in African-American communities, the South is the demographic heartland of African-Americans in the United States, and alcoholism is still a severe problem in many black communities. Things aren't much different in poor white communities, and so there's still a religious pushback against alcohol in many parts of the South due to the still ongoing problems from rampant alcohol abuse. That's something I think is important to remember when talking about Southern Baptist views on social issues, and to a certain extent Protestantism in the American South in general: the American South is very rural and very poor, and the SBC is pretty representative of the religions present for those communities. There are areas here and there in the South that are different, like Atlanta and New Orleans and Miami and whatnot, but the bulk of the SBC's membership and leadership come from and are concerned with the the rest of the region. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Dec 23, 2016 |
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Dec 23, 2016 18:53
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Ceciltron posted:Christmas approaches: I heard my dad singing the alleluia from mozart's exsultate iubilate while shaving this morning. There are usually evening and midnight services on Christmas Eve, depending on the weather my family will go to one or the other. It's family tradition to read the Nativity story and open gifts on Christmas Eve. There is also a service on Christmas Day and usually the big extended-family feast is noon on Christmas Day. For whatever reason it's tradition on my dad's side of the family (Germans) to eat oyster stew on Christmas Eve, and my mom (Norwegian ancestry) makes lefse.
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Dec 23, 2016 18:59
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HEY GAL posted:wait, ceciltron, where are you from Quebec. We're old-school french catholics. No sedevecantists or traditionalist movements afaik though. I could do an effortpost on the religious history of the province in the last 400 years, given the fact the place was more puritanically catholic than ireland until the 60s, if anyone wants.
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Dec 23, 2016 19:01
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As far as I know the evening vs morning thing is different by area, not by denomination. Where I grew up we also give presents in the evening (and go to church in the morning). Christmas is a pretty horrible time for me, but at some point in the future I hope I'll have my own family or community and it will be nice and we'll hang up stars and stuff and there well be no arguing.
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Dec 23, 2016 19:01
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Ceciltron posted:Quebec. 
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Dec 23, 2016 19:21
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:In my undergrad I literally took too many English courses for them to allow me to take any more, so I had to substitute an American history class on the 1860s for an American lit class. StashAugustine posted:the story goes that lots of irish/german immigrants were all for Prohibition because a) they'd seen the toll super heavy drinking creates and b) they didn't think they were going to ban beer too Even the Word of Wisdom was not initially nterpreted to include beer; there were even problems in Salt Lake City with bad smells from breweries. So I think it's reasonable that a lot of Americans may have not considered beer to be "alcohol". Ceciltron posted:Any of y'alls traditions include celebrating Christmas at midnight rather than the morning? I have been living away from my parents (and thus not visiting to see my grandparents) for ten years now, and I still find it weird to think about opening presents on Christmas Day. For me Christmas 'should be' a table full of meatless food for supper on Christmas Eve, then opening presents, washing dishes, taking a nap, going to midnight Mass, coming home and having a ham sandwich, and finally going to bed and sleeping until at least noon. Maybe this year I can convince Mr. Zonohedron we should take the kids to midnight Mass so I can at least get the 'sleeping all morning' part? 
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Dec 23, 2016 20:12
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HEY GAL posted:this was the case in the period i study as well studying history starts to make a lot more sense when you understand everyone was drunk or insane or a goon  I mean look at this fucker, he'd probably be better off reading manga and playing DOTA 2 but no he had to go ahead and protect Luther and ensure the success of the Reformation.
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Dec 23, 2016 20:13
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Arsenic Lupin posted:[trigger warning I am not kidding] Also, he hated Nikola "Nyarlathotep" Tesla, for which he can never be forgiven. I'm all for terminating all "Lovecraft" named awards and stuff like that. Dude was absolutely a hateful piece of poo poo. If you want "a man of his time" with both good ideas and bad ideas relative to his peers, Tesla is actually a good example. Though I'm actually kinda creeped out by how much he is glorified and his bad sides overlooked by nerd culture today, even though I generally like the guy.
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Dec 23, 2016 20:40
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I'm not sure why you can't like art without agreeing with it's founder on everything. I have a strict no-fund principle when it comes to racism and the right wing, but buying Lovecrafts works is not funding racist activity in any sense of the word. I mean, heck, more or less all great musicians were assholes, if you can't separate the work from the person you can't really appreciate anything but milquetoast family entertainment( and even that is debatable).
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Dec 23, 2016 21:09
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I never said anything about reading and appreciating his literary work. But actually honoring the guy? Blah.
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Dec 23, 2016 21:26
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my dad posted:I never said anything about reading and appreciating his literary work. But actually honoring the guy? Blah. This. And buying Lovecraft's work doesn't benefit him anyway, because (a) he is dead and (b) it is probably out of copyright now.
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Dec 23, 2016 22:09
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Tias posted:I'm not sure why you can't like art without agreeing with it's founder on everything. I have a strict no-fund principle when it comes to racism and the right wing, but buying Lovecrafts works is not funding racist activity in any sense of the word. I mean, heck, more or less all great musicians were assholes, if you can't separate the work from the person you can't really appreciate anything but milquetoast family entertainment( and even that is debatable). That's fine, as long as you can actually separate the author and the text. Trouble is, as ALupin pointed out, people who like Lovecraft try to play down his views as "of his time". I've got no problem with loving the work the murderer Ben Johson, or Shakespeare who profiteered from famine, or even of Spenser who literally endorsed and helped enact genocide on a large scale. But it is sinful to try and minimise and downplay these crimes just because you like the authors work.
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Dec 23, 2016 22:10
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