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Mr. Mambold posted:What parts exactly are you debunking? I can't parse where you're saying he's wrong. You make your thesis and the next time I run into Bob, I'll tell him about it. Last time this came up we found a recent article by Fine Woodworking that recommends finishing both sides equally, years after Bob dropped this bombshell. I rarely read magazines anymore so I don't know what they recommend but I don't believe I'm the outlier on this, I'm pretty sure that finishing both sides equally is still woodworking 101. TooMuchAbstraction posted:The thesis is presumably the contrary to what the article claimed, viz. that only finishing one side doesn't cause the wood to warp. Exactly this. A damp cloth on the surface and water moving in and out of the wood structure are different things. The first sentence should be a red flag when he says logic doesn't always apply -- well yeah from his point of view because what he's saying is illogical. He says, "Moisture exchange is responsible for warping, and a finish slows moisture exchange." This is consistent with his earlier work. But then he goes on to claim it's true except on tables. I have mad respect for his book on finishing but this makes no sense and contradicts everything I've learned.
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Dec 23, 2016 00:26
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I think his point is that it doesn't do enough to matter because equilibrium is reached in similar fashion and shouldn't result in permanent warping. If permanent warping occured it's due to internal stresses in the wood and not the fact that one side takes on moisture ever so slightly faster than the other. When he says "logic shouldn't apply" he's basically saying correlation doesn't equal causation. GEMorris fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Dec 23, 2016 |
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Dec 23, 2016 00:59
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Are you talking up his argument, making it your own?
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Dec 23, 2016 01:16
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wormil posted:Are you talking up his argument, making it your own? No, I'm trying to explain his position because I feel like you've made a misrepresentation of it.
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Dec 23, 2016 01:25
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wormil posted:Last time this came up we found a recent article by Fine Woodworking that recommends finishing both sides equally, years after Bob dropped this bombshell. I rarely read magazines anymore so I don't know what they recommend but I don't believe I'm the outlier on this, I'm pretty sure that finishing both sides equally is still woodworking 101. I've almost always been a finish both sides guy in the past from habit, but I really don't think it matters. Because finishes don't retard atmospheric absorption significantly. And when I built decks, I learned to use screws rather than nails to nail down the deckboard because the movement of the wood* would eventually pull even countersunk nails loose, they'd stick up proud. What he says is "cell compression from moisture absorption, then evaporation is responsible for warping because the cells' structure is permanently altered". GEMorris posted:I think his point is that it doesn't do enough to matter because equilibrium is reached in similar fashion and shouldn't result in permanent warping. If permanent warping occured it's due to internal stresses in the wood and not the fact that one side takes on moisture ever so slightly faster than the other. He's not saying that at all, he even mentions quartersawn lumber exhibiting the same phenomenon. bob posted:When moisture enters wood, it causes the wood to swell. The top surfaces of the tabletop and deck thus try to expand. But the wood’s thickness remains stable and prevents this. As a result, the cells at the top surface are compressed from their original cylindrical shape to an oval shape. When the wood eventually dries out again, the cells don’t return fully to their cylindrical shape. The top surface thus shrinks, pulling the board concave. *edit- not natural movement, but expansion and contraction due to water Mr. Mambold fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Dec 23, 2016 |
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Dec 23, 2016 01:26
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Mr. Mambold posted:I've almost always been a finish both sides guy in the past from habit, but I really don't think it matters. Because finishes don't retard atmospheric absorption significantly. And when I built decks, I learned to use screws rather than nails to nail down the deckboard because the movement of the wood* would eventually pull even countersunk nails loose, they'd stick up proud. Thanks for the flashback of my father making me, as a kid, walk the deck every summer with a putty knife and hammer.
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Dec 23, 2016 01:38
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Trying to support it by saying film finishes don't significantly retard moisture exchange is wrong and contradictory to Flexner himself.
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Dec 23, 2016 01:42
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If you've ever done solid wood flooring, widths vary from a narrow 2 1/4" oak width to 6" or wider. There's no way that flooring gets finished anywhere but on the top surface. And it will not cup (unless someone mops it chronically or you get a flood), but it definitely will expand as wood does from atmospheric absorption. That's why you leave a gap under the baseboards and cover it with base shoe. And if you don't use a moisture barrier under it, you can get a buckled floor from moisture osmosising up through the slab, but that's only sideways relevant to this discussion  Stultus Maximus posted:Thanks for the flashback of my father making me, as a kid, walk the deck every summer with a putty knife and hammer. Props to that dad. That's why you're the head of a major corporation today / 
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Dec 23, 2016 01:48
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wormil posted:Trying to support it by saying film finishes don't significantly retard moisture exchange is wrong and contradictory to Flexner himself. Bob's kinda like Yoda in that regard I reckon. edit I'm gonna squeeze in another here wormil, but I think you're missing the forest for the trees
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Dec 23, 2016 01:50
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You already admitted you finish both sides, you don't start something like that "out of habit". How about we stick to the subject, tables, because decks and floors are exposed to moisture differently than tables. There is good reason why it's recommended to finish both sides equally, because it makes sense and fits with what we know about finishes and moisture exchange. We don't need to dismiss logic to explain it. It also bears out in practical application.
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Dec 23, 2016 02:17
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Bought a wood moisture meter as a early gift to myself. My bench was at like 6% (the lowest the meter goes) and the wood I had bought the other day was at 12% on the ends and up to 30% in the middle. I think I'm at the point where I'm just going to go to the fancy pants lumber store (yard?) and buy their fancy pants kiln dried rough cut stuff, because hooo drat did that 30% wood warp like crazy or what. Also bought a Disston D-8 that magically allows me to saw straight lines, it is amazing.
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Dec 23, 2016 05:17
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Magnus Praeda posted:I wish any of my nephews or niece were at all interested in woodworking because I would totally do something like this. My eldest nephew looked at me like I had three heads when I gifted my old tool belt to him. Atticus_1354 posted:This is super cool and I hope you keep posting about this. My nephews are only 2 but they love tools and I want to do woodworking with them when they are old enough. Last time I babysat one of them we watched youtube woodworking videos for an hour. I think he mostly likes the saw and tool noises, but that is enough at his age. My kids are only 3 and I dunno if they will give two shits either, but at the least it will be a table to sit and play at if nothing else. And if it's not too beat up when they grow out of it it can probably be like a table to keep plants on by the windows, or an outdoor bench or m achine stand or something like that.
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Dec 23, 2016 08:54
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Free shipping from Lee Valley starting today through the 4th. I picked up a saw file for my new crosscut Disston, a new 8000 grit sharpening stone, and the marking knife that was recommended by PWM. The knife will hopefully be replacing my Stanely box cutter 
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Dec 23, 2016 13:26
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ColdPie posted:Free shipping from Lee Valley starting today through the 4th. I picked up a saw file for my new crosscut Disston, a new 8000 grit sharpening stone, and the marking knife that was recommended by PWM. The knife will hopefully be replacing my Stanely box cutter *when you spend $40 or more
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Dec 23, 2016 14:03
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Tres Burritos posted:Bought a wood moisture meter as a early gift to myself. My bench was at like 6% (the lowest the meter goes) and the wood I had bought the other day was at 12% on the ends and up to 30% in the middle. I think I'm at the point where I'm just going to go to the fancy pants lumber store (yard?) and buy their fancy pants kiln dried rough cut stuff, because hooo drat did that 30% wood warp like crazy or what. Also bought a Disston D-8 that magically allows me to saw straight lines, it is amazing. Which one did you get? I need a new one.
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Dec 23, 2016 15:12
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wormil posted:You already admitted you finish both sides, you don't start something like that "out of habit". How about we stick to the subject, tables, because decks and floors are exposed to moisture differently than tables. I started doing this stuff blind basically, the only finishing examples I had were residential lacquer jobs. Don't tell me what I start doing out of habit. Decks and floors are made of wood, last time I checked and Bob cites decks as an example, so don't be an rear end in a top hat. To use a table, then as example, I've got an oval cherry table top I made over 30 years ago. It has gone through several iterations. I originally finished the top with oil finish and pretty sure I slapped a coat on the bottom. I have since refinished the top, which did not remove the entire layer of finish. About 6 years ago I 'gave' it to my daughter, who promptly slapped a thick coat of black latex on the top. Because ~reasons~. I ended up taking it back, and it has sat on its edge in my shop since. I've not gotten around to stripping that abomination off it. It has not warped or cupped, when according to your logic and reasoning, it should have. That latex is much more of a sealant than its original oil finish. It has also not been exposed to wiping down with water. So to me, that backs up what Bob is saying. I also have a 6/4 or so oak table top we retrieved from a school dumpster that sits next to it which does warp seasonally.
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Dec 23, 2016 16:40
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No, not according to my logic, your logic. Not every table top is going to warp, I said that. I'm not not calling Flexner a liar, I believe he has seen many that were only finished on one side that didn't cup or bow but he drew the wrong conclusion.
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Dec 23, 2016 17:35
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wormil posted:No, not according to my logic, your logic. Not every table top is going to warp, I said that. I'm not not calling Flexner a liar, I believe he has seen many that were only finished on one side that didn't cup or bow but he drew the wrong conclusion. Youre just ignoring or dismissing anyone or anything that doesn't agree with your views, which is pretty bog standard Wormil behavior at this point. I could just as easily say that you saw ones that weren't finished on both sides and did warp and you drew the wrong conclusion by confusing correlation with causation.
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Dec 23, 2016 17:40
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Only one person is disagreeing with me. You are attacking me personally. For the sake of everyone else I'm dropping it because I said my piece.
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Dec 23, 2016 17:57
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GEMorris posted:Youre just ignoring or dismissing anyone or anything that doesn't agree with your views Pot, meet kettle.
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Dec 23, 2016 19:13
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mds2 posted:Which one did you get? I need a new one. This one it's pretty pricey, but all the cheap ones were like "Check to see if your drywall is wet" and this one is only about wood and comes with a little card that lets you calibrate for species and temp. It seems to take very consistent readings too.
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Dec 23, 2016 19:17
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wormil posted:No, not according to my logic, your logic. Not every table top is going to warp, I said that. I'm not not calling Flexner a liar, I believe he has seen many that were only finished on one side that didn't cup or bow but he drew the wrong conclusion. Okay, I'm going to be the rear end in a top hat who keeps pursuing this, because I still don't get which part of what he says you think is wrong, and you were very insistent that he was wrong about something. Here you say- wormil posted:If you want to test his claim -- glue up a panel, finish only the top, suspend it over sawhorses and put a heat source or fan blowing on it. but you don't specify where the heat source is aimed? Are you saying an even distribution of heat on both sides will cause it to cup or warp favoring the finished side?
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Dec 23, 2016 19:54
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keep it down up there! posted:Pot, meet kettle. But of course, ultimately, they can't, so the dance continues.
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Dec 23, 2016 20:35
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Slugworth posted:They've got a real Sam and Diane thing going. Pretty sure they would have slept together by now, if only they could agree on what kind of work bench they should do it on. Hahahaha
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Dec 23, 2016 20:45
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ColdPie posted:Free shipping from Lee Valley starting today through the 4th. I picked up a saw file for my new crosscut Disston, a new 8000 grit sharpening stone, and the marking knife that was recommended by PWM. The knife will hopefully be replacing my Stanely box cutter Thanks. I needed a vise screw and a new plane blade. Procrastinating paid off this time.
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Dec 23, 2016 22:31
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Holy poo poo, check this stuff out. Some impressive marquetry on display, but also a bunch of hidden locking mechanisms. I'd love to know how those things fit together. Has anyone here ever done puzzle boxes? Any resources you'd recommend for learning about them? EDIT: unrelated, I finished a last-minute gift.   Pine and shellac, cut on my bandsaw with a 1/8" blade.
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Dec 23, 2016 22:36
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I think I am going to make a new shift knob for my car out of Bocote in the new year.  Already got the 10x1.5 metric hardware ordered, just have to do some prototypes and make sure I can pull it off.
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Dec 24, 2016 00:18
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:
Nice, I really need to get a bandsaw.
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Dec 24, 2016 00:56
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Last minute christmas gift. My mom has a big endgrain cutting board, but it doesn't really get used because they're thick and ridiculous for normal kitchen tasks. She uses an old face grain board that's starting to crack most of the time. I wanted to make a lighter weight board that won't warp or crack. Seeing this years ago is where the idea was from http://woodgears.ca/kitchen/cutting_board.html   Pretty much just made 3 ply solidwood plywood with maple for the bottom/middle and walnut and a piece of otherwise useless figured white oak that had a bad warp. It sort of looks a little silly, but at least the grain is cool. Walnut makes a surprisingly decent face grain board, too. I made one for myself last year from walnut and it's still working well. Hypnolobster fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Dec 24, 2016 |
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Dec 24, 2016 03:37
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I'm planning on making a wall-mounted bookshelf. Is there any rule of thumb on how many studs I need to pick up when mounting it in order to support a particular weight?
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Dec 24, 2016 05:19
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Slugworth posted:if only they could agree on what kind of work bench they should do it on. Shaker of course. 
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Dec 24, 2016 05:34
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So I built an arcade cabinet (as an xmas gift), which is more than just wood working, but it's definitely the most advanced woodworking project I've ever done and I really enjoyed it! Routers are my new most feared and favorite power tool. Here's an image gallery of my process: http://imgur.com/a/Zyat0 End result:  I pretty much made it up as I went along, turned out fairly sturdy. My goal is always "drunk proof" when making things, and this project will end up at a party house (The hollow base is so it can hold a mini beer-fridge), so I'm happy with how strong it is. *Edit: Clarified that it was a mini fridge that held beer, not a fridge that held mini-beers. Antiquated Pants fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Dec 24, 2016 |
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Dec 24, 2016 08:27
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Antiquated Pants posted:So I built an arcade cabinet (as an xmas gift), which is more than just wood working, but it's definitely the most advanced woodworking project I've ever done and I really enjoyed it! This is rad and good! How did you go about the painting/finishing? It looks really clean.
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Dec 24, 2016 14:22
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Holy poo poo, check this stuff out. Some impressive marquetry on display, but also a bunch of hidden locking mechanisms. I'd love to know how those things fit together. Has anyone here ever done puzzle boxes? Any resources you'd recommend for learning about them? So this makes me have to ask: is there anything really keeping you from just using a bandsaw like a scrollsaw?
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Dec 24, 2016 14:26
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wormil posted:Shaker of course. Just be sure to properly secure the work piece before starting, and I'm sure it goes unsaid in this thread, but use proper PPE.
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Dec 24, 2016 14:37
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Hubis posted:So this makes me have to ask: is there anything really keeping you from just using a bandsaw like a scrollsaw? The bandsaw is a continuous loop of a blade, so it can't do the "drill a hole, insert blade through hole, cut out nicer hole in the middle of workpiece" trick. Not without access to a welder, anyway. If you've ever looked closely at bandsaw boxes, there's always a point somewhere on the perimeter where the blade cut through and the woodworker had to glue it back together. Bandsaw blades are also not rigid, which means that you're in danger of the blade twisting as it cuts through your piece. This results in a non-vertical cut, and may derail the blade if it's not mounted/tensioned properly. Fortunately, derailed blades don't really do anything; they just stop, then you have to shut things down, back the blade out of the workpiece, and re-mount it.
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Dec 24, 2016 16:27
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Slugworth posted:, but use proper PPE. It's in the cabinet underneath. Yawn. Maybe you and GE should have a boys night out so you get me out your system. Believe me, there is nothing that would make me happier.
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Dec 24, 2016 17:15
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Hubis posted:This is rad and good! The 3 player facing boards are some sort of scrap particle board,I just used semi-gloss black spray paint and decided to do a thin layer of clear resin on the controller board. I wanted to protect it from wear since I didn't have the time/money to design a cool vinyl print to be shipped to me. The resin cleared up all imperfections in the paint and looked so good I had to do it to the monitor piece, then just to keep it going I put a thin layer on the top piece too (you can see the reflection in the photo). Everything else is plywood that I started spray painting with the same black (I have tons of that stuff from an auction, so I wanted to use it up), but it just wasn't looking right and the fumes were killing me. So I just bought a small can of full gloss black paint and rolled it on! It looks A LOT better than the spray paint. The red T-Molding really pops and brings it all together, I'm glad I found a website to sell it because I was just thinking about rounding the edges with a router and keeping it black.
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Dec 24, 2016 19:08
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wormil posted:It's in the cabinet underneath. Yawn. Maybe you and GE should have a boys night out so you get me out your system. Believe me, there is nothing that would make me happier.
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Dec 24, 2016 19:50
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Slugworth posted:I think you've misread me a bit - I'm quite fond of both of you, as you're generally the two most knowledgeable in the thread - I just see a bit of humor in how much you argue. I took your response to mine as you playing along with my joke, but I'll gladly drop it. I wasn't sure actually. No problem. I'm not as grumpy as my avatar looks. I sometimes can be animated on my opinions which probably comes across differently than it sounds on my head. Sorry I got everyone riled up.
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Dec 25, 2016 00:51
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