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Fiction posted:So the hard right turn in Europe can be ascribed to the lack of leftist Euroskepticism, right? I mean the fiscal issues with austerity and the inability to set a continental policy on refugees that actually works are pretty much intractable under the current system. It's interesting because loads of left-leaners across Europe are Eurosceptic but will vehemently decry the idea of leaving the EU, because we should reform it into a more positive institution. Because apparently that idea has never been thought of before. DarkCrawler posted:The problem is, am I going to vote for the useless Marxists, useless Marxist-Leninists, useless vaguely defined labor-socialists? What's wrong with Vasemmistoliitto?
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Dec 23, 2016 00:31
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Tesseraction posted:What's wrong with Vasemmistoliitto? They have been part of governing coalition once, in the sixpack clusterfuck coalition, from which they ended up bailing out. Voting them is marginally less throwing your vote away than Pirates but not much. They want to bulldoze all finnish industry and build windmills instead. They did switch party leadership recently, maybe she will turn things around for the party. With both SDP and True Finns waffling around, Keskusta and Cocks taking hits due to being in governing coalition and there being huge number of undecideds, next three years are probably the best chance for long while to seize the moment. http://liandersson.fi/a-plan-b-for-europe-speech-at-plan-b-conference-of-the-european-left/ She has some good stuff, guess we'll see if she can convert any of that into actual voter gains.
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Dec 23, 2016 01:56
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throw to first drat IT posted:Voting them is marginally less throwing your vote away than Pirates but not much. It seems they have somewhat notable representation whereas the diginerds have yet to gain any seat in your parliament? I'd vote for a party like them in a proportional representation system like you have.
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Dec 23, 2016 02:02
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https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/812231272709914624 https://twitter.com/MKWilliamsRome/status/812235127015297024
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Dec 23, 2016 11:01
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Apparently the police officer who shot him dead was a rookie cop who has been in service for 9 months. Talk about a baptism by fire.
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Dec 23, 2016 11:54
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Deltasquid posted:Talk about a baptism by fire. Now we're baptising criminals??? Christian Extremism has gone too far.
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Dec 23, 2016 12:04
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How the hell did he get to Italy
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Dec 23, 2016 14:38
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He had a train ticket from Chambéry in France to Turin in his bag. Doesn't seem clear how he got out of Germany, though.
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Dec 23, 2016 15:09
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Kassad posted:He had a train ticket from Chambéry in France to Turin in his bag. Doesn't seem clear how he got out of Germany, though. Po-po believed that they had the attacker in custody until the next day. He had almost 24h, where no one was looking for any terrist or him in particular. I guess he just bought a ticket and hopped on the nearest bus or train to France, it's not very far.
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Dec 23, 2016 15:23
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Kassad posted:https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/812231272709914624 Hope they got the right guy this time. Would be mega embarassing otherwise.
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Dec 23, 2016 15:25
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^^ Indeed. It's probably not great for the investigation that he died, though.Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Po-po believed that they had the attacker in custody until the next day. He had almost 24h, where no one was looking for any terrist or him in particular. It's not the first time something like this happens, either. The guy who shot up the Jewish Museum of Belgium was caught by customs agents at a bus stop in Marseille.
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Dec 23, 2016 15:32
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Good thing France still has this state of emergency. Otherwise people could slip through to other countries.
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Dec 23, 2016 15:40
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Po-po believed that they had the attacker in custody until the next day. He had almost 24h, where no one was looking for any terrist or him in particular. Sounds plausible
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Dec 23, 2016 15:48
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Lol European security cooperation is a joke
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Dec 23, 2016 16:09
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Surely we can all agree thatDarkCrawler posted:Lol European or, hell, in fact, DarkCrawler posted:Lol Europe because god drat 
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Dec 23, 2016 16:14
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Randler posted:Good thing France still has this state of emergency. Otherwise people could slip through to other countries. How can anyone still think that a country can maintain absolute control over anyone within its borders? You could create the worst, most fascist police state in history and you still wouldn't achieve that.
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Dec 23, 2016 16:17
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DarkCrawler posted:Lol European security cooperation is a joke Why are you saying this, my friend?
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Dec 23, 2016 16:17
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cebrail posted:How can anyone still think that a country can maintain absolute control over anyone within its borders? You could create the worst, most fascist police state in history and you still wouldn't achieve that. Case in point: Mediapart just published an article about the preparations the Nice terrorist took ahead of the attack. He came to scope out the area 11 times a few days before July 14. In three instances, he drove his truck on the Promenade des Anglais (including on the sidewalks) to see how to avoid potential obstacles, like a pergola that he swerved around in the actual attack. It was all captured by one of the security cameras installed by the former mayor, Christian Estrosi. Estrosi claimed that a similar system in Paris would have helped prevent the November 13 attacks.
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Dec 23, 2016 16:29
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Yes, let's give the terrorists exactly what they want. Let's make the lives of 500 million people worse, which will have economic repercussions which will in the end kill hundreds of thousands of people because of poverty, because of a single terror attack that killed what, 10 people?
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Dec 23, 2016 16:41
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Italy is gonna bill Germany for this, right?
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Dec 23, 2016 16:46
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Pochoclo posted:Yes, let's give the terrorists exactly what they want. Let's make the lives of 500 million people worse, which will have economic repercussions which will in the end kill hundreds of thousands of people because of poverty, because of a single terror attack that killed what, 10 people? 2001 and 2015 told us that this is literally what will happen, every time, without fail.
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Dec 23, 2016 16:50
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Italy is gonna bill Germany for this, right? Given that Italy failed to protect the border and let this guy in, put him in prison and after that let him go to Germany, I feel like Italy should be happy if they don't get blamed for the whole mess.
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Dec 23, 2016 17:41
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GaussianCopula posted:Given that Italy failed to protect the border and let this guy in, put him in prison and after that let him go to Germany, I feel like Italy should be happy if they don't get blamed for the whole mess. to protect the border italy must literally sink thousands of ships every year, killing 100s of thousands. They're doing a good job being the number 2# way into europe for refugees
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Dec 23, 2016 19:34
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GaussianCopula posted:Given that Italy failed to protect the border and let this guy in, put him in prison and after that let him go to Germany, I feel like Italy should be happy if they don't get blamed for the whole mess. Their border was not attacked, they couldn't have protected it from anything. What you mean is "they didn't kill as many people as I'd like them to".
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Dec 23, 2016 19:41
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GaussianCopula posted:Given that Italy failed to protect the border and let this guy in, put him in prison and after that let him go to Germany, I feel like Italy should be happy if they don't get blamed for the whole mess. And the German police failed to protect your own people. Maybe next time we should send terrorists back to Germany with cars packed with C4.
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Dec 23, 2016 20:45
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Wild Horses posted:to protect the border italy must literally sink thousands of ships every year, killing 100s of thousands. They're doing a good job being the number 2# way into europe for refugees It's crazy how you still don't understand the concept of a deterrent (you don't need to blow boats up, just tow them back, you're probably saving lives that way if the Australian experience is anything to go by) Anyway, this guy was from a safe country, committed crimes in Italy for which he was arrested and was in the EU illegally. I realize that it's difficult to send people back to countries that don't want them, but at this point it's pretty easy to see why so many people are pissed off about the system as it currently stands. If you can't send people back, surely you can do *something* else, like arrest them for being in the country illegally or something. Geriatric Pirate fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Dec 23, 2016 |
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Dec 23, 2016 21:54
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Prisons as they exists can't hold that many people. You would need to create prison camps to put all the illegal people in.
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Dec 23, 2016 22:08
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doverhog posted:Prisons as they exists can't hold that many people. You would need to create prison camps to put all the illegal people in. I didn't really intend it as a serious solution (I was just saying "people are understandably pissed off"), but maybe instead of arresting all illegals, just keep the ones that have committed serious crimes in jail or deport them instead of releasing them to another country where they stand no chance at asylum and carry a grudge..
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Dec 23, 2016 22:28
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Geriatric Pirate posted:It's crazy how you still don't understand the concept of a deterrent (you don't need to blow boats up, just tow them back, you're probably saving lives that way if the Australian experience is anything to go by) All these armchair ideas (no offence) sound perfectly doable until you realise that we're talking about loving millions of people and the logistics involved are nightmarish. Sometimes the most effective way to solve a problem is not to solve it. There's no way to stop illegal immigration. At best, you can kinda help it become productive.
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Dec 23, 2016 23:09
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Geriatric Pirate posted:I didn't really intend it as a serious solution (I was just saying "people are understandably pissed off"), but maybe instead of arresting all illegals, just keep the ones that have committed serious crimes in jail or deport them instead of releasing them to another country where they stand no chance at asylum and carry a grudge.. None of the people you are thinking about(asylum seeker, refugees, etc.) are illegally in Europe. The number of actually illegal immigrants is probably extremely small and because the government doesn't know who or where they are, it can't just arrest them. If we are talking about people like the Berlin attacker, he was waiting for his deportation to Tunisia and the long delay was due to lacking cooperation from the Tunisian government. Police can hold people pending deportation for a small amount of time(a couple of weeks IRC), but not indefinitely. Holding innocent people who have not committed any crimes in prison would be a massive violation of human rights and the German constitution. You can only do poo poo like that as a government if you have something like Guantanamo Bay or you are running a banana republic like Venezuela. There were some legal instruments that NRW's government could have used though. They could have restricted his free movement to a single city and force him to report daily to police. Violating this restriction is actually a crime and could have landed him in prison. It's not really clear yet why he was not restricted and the it's doubtful that this could have prevent the attack in Berlin or any attack at all. e: I mean, I agree with you that the situation is stupid, but I'm really not sure how you could improve it in a sensible way. The obvious solution is to just prevent people like him from ever coming here, but deterrence like you propose wouldn't work. This year alone over 5000 people died trying to cross the Mediterranean sea, they don't scare that easily. GABA ghoul fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Dec 23, 2016 |
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Dec 23, 2016 23:33
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:None of the people you are thinking about(asylum seeker, refugees, etc.) are illegally in Europe. The number of actually illegal immigrants is probably extremely small and because the government doesn't know who or where they are, it can't just arrest them. No, it's large because people who have had their application refused can just refuse to leave voluntarily and the countries they are from generally don't want them back.
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Dec 24, 2016 00:01
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The guy was in prison for 4 years for a school arson. (I think we're talking about the same guy) Based on the timeline, the arson was probably one of the first things he did upon arrival. If there's no way to get him, of all people, to leave, then everything is hosed beyond repair
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Dec 24, 2016 00:06
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throw to first drat IT posted:No, it's large because people who have had their application refused can just refuse to leave voluntarily and the countries they are from generally don't want them back. You gonna have to back that up with a source. As far as I know German law, people awaiting a deportation get a "Duldung" during the waiting time. A Duldung explicitly prevents you from falling under the illegal aliens laws. Nissin Cup Nudist posted:The guy was in prison for 4 years for a school arson. (I think we're talking about the same guy) Based on the timeline, the arson was probably one of the first things he did upon arrival. If there's no way to get him, of all people, to leave, then everything is hosed beyond repair Don't worry, his travel documents from the Tunisian government finally arrived last wednesday, two days after the attack. He/his corpse can be deported now. 
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Dec 24, 2016 00:34
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:The guy was in prison for 4 years for a school arson. (I think we're talking about the same guy) Based on the timeline, the arson was probably one of the first things he did upon arrival. If there's no way to get him, of all people, to leave, then everything is hosed beyond repair While everything that GP has (ever) said is both vile and disgusting; and also incidentally against international law and basic human rights, there is a point in this. I don't think anyone has argued that he of all people should've been permitted to run around free in Germany after what he'd done, though. So it's a bit of a strawman. Somebody pretty clearly hosed up royally, and the failure of the authorities to cop up to that mistake is ironically enough the reason why this thing is feeding racism thus.
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Dec 24, 2016 00:45
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Pochoclo posted:All these armchair ideas (no offence) sound perfectly doable until you realise that we're talking about loving millions of people and the logistics involved are nightmarish. Sometimes the most effective way to solve a problem is not to solve it. There's no way to stop illegal immigration. At best, you can kinda help it become productive. Centrist politicians doing the above for the past decade is why far right populism is on the upswing across Europe.
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Dec 24, 2016 05:20
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shrike82 posted:Centrist politicians doing the above for the past decade is why far right populism is on the upswing across Europe. Errrr, is it? I think it's more about neoliberalism and free trade leaving a lot of non-rich people behind, then far rightists scapegoating non-whites for all their problems.
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Dec 24, 2016 05:49
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Majorian posted:Errrr, is it? I think it's more about neoliberalism and free trade leaving a lot of non-rich people behind, then far rightists scapegoating non-whites for all their problems. No it's really both.
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Dec 24, 2016 09:44
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Majorian posted:Errrr, is it? I think it's more about neoliberalism and free trade leaving a lot of non-rich people behind, then far rightists scapegoating non-whites for all their problems. I mean, the economic part is more important, but the combination of the two is probably far more potent than either on their own.
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Dec 24, 2016 09:46
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Namarrgon posted:No it's really both. I agree, just shrugging your shoulders and saying "we don't know what to do , just vote for us and let's hope things get better" leaves the door wide open for the far right who might be full of poo poo but they actually say they will do some thing.
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Dec 24, 2016 09:49
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shrike82 posted:Centrist politicians doing the above for the past decade is why far right populism is on the upswing across Europe. Actually, as the saying goes "it's the economy, stupid".
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Dec 24, 2016 10:01
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