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skasion posted:Comparison between the Greuthungi/Tervingi incursion over the Danube and modern European refugee crisis is absolutely colossally misplaced, whether the political point you're trying to make is "migrants are filthy subhuman scum, shut your ears to their piteous cries" or "truly Rome would still exist today if only they had realized the inestimable value of multicultural peace love and understanding" or whatever other dumb poo poo. There are desperate people trying to cross borders and that's where the resemblance terminates. You might as well say Trump is comparable to Julius Caesar because they're both self-obsessed rich debtors with a nice head of hair. And they both stiffed their creditors, both narrowly escaped prosecution by seizing supreme power, and neither of them actually killed a million gauls 
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Dec 23, 2016 06:22
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I demand to see Pompey Magnus' senatorial certificate!
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Dec 23, 2016 07:40
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Trajan can't be emperor, he wasn't even born in Rome.
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Dec 23, 2016 07:46
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fuckin' Hispanians, stealing good Roman jobs
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Dec 23, 2016 08:03
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Elyv posted:fuckin' Hispanians, stealing good Roman jobs Bring the silver mines back!
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Dec 23, 2016 08:05
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Im gonna build a big wall and make the Picts pay for it!
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Dec 23, 2016 08:06
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The ban on Christians worked out pretty well back then.
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Dec 23, 2016 08:22
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Agean90 posted:Im gonna build a big wall and make the Picts pay for it! But then we will just be trapped on the side with the gay agenda! Someone reprogram the emperor.
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Dec 23, 2016 08:40
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:and neither of them actually killed a million gauls Can't make this comparison yet! Maybe he'll want Trump wines to take over Bordeaux. And what did cause the shift in (western) Roman xenophobia? I assume the crisis of the third century, worsening economy, weaker government, etc, but I'm just guessing and would appreciate somebody who actually knows.
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Dec 23, 2016 11:52
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Pontius Pilate posted:Can't make this comparison yet! Maybe he'll want Trump wines to take over Bordeaux. I lay the blame entirely on mainstream praeco's.
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Dec 23, 2016 12:43
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Pontius Pilate posted:Can't make this comparison yet! Maybe he'll want Trump wines to take over Bordeaux. It's not clear that there was any but the usual xenophobia at fault caused the Gothic crisis. Guy Halsall's "Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West" has an excellent section on Roman attitudes to barbarians. The short way of putting it is that Romans did not like barbarians and looked down on them, but sometimes could be induced to think of them as what we would call "noble savages", contrasting their natural, uncivilized living with a dishonest, citified society like Rome. In time this led to some military units identifying themselves with the barbarians more than earlier Roman military leaders or soldiers would have felt was appropriate. At first this identification was in concert with its Roman identity, so that a Roman cohort in the Notitia Dignitatum could be referred to as the "Celtiberi" though all the Celtiberian peoples had been under Roman rule for centuries and were as Roman as anyone in the empire; but eventually it was taken to the extent that some parts of Roman military retained their identity as "barbarians" while increasingly discarding their identity as Romans. Or anyway that's Halsall's theory, as I understand it. His book is definitely worth a read. But I don't think that this sort of shift in opinion on the barbarians was at fault for the Gothic crisis. The sheer scale of the Gothic crossing was more important than any change in Roman attitudes. The Roman authorities didn't have, or did not devote, enough resources to manage the receptio of the Tervingi and Greuthungi. They were starving and desperate and people took advantage of them. Such Roman authorities as were present tried to handle the situation by killing the barbarian ringleaders, which was a pretty standard tactic. Whoops they didn't like that and now there's a whole poo poo ton of angry starving people, some of them armed and perhaps with Roman military experience, wandering up and down the Balkans year on year trying to find some means of survival. And they're called Goths so if, as a Balkan Roman, you didn't have any strong opinions on Goths before, you sure don't like them now. There wasn't any especial malice towards the Greuthungi and Tervingi for being Goths or whatever, they were only barbarians from outside the empire and that meant there was nothing wrong with screwing them over (and plenty of Roman administrators saw nothing wrong with screwing over people in their charge regardless of whether they were Romans or not). It's just that in this case the scale of the problem wasn't appreciated until it turned into a proper catastrophe.
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Dec 23, 2016 16:09
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Were there any natural causes for this mass starvation? Couldn't they farm the land?
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Dec 24, 2016 09:37
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Giving them land seemed to have been the plan but it was going to take a while, during which the Romans pledged to give them relief food. But then they didn't follow through (mixture of logistic issues and corrupt officials selling the food for their own gain) and the Visigoths rose up.
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Dec 24, 2016 09:59
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But what made Visigoths leave their own land? Why did they need Rome to feed them?
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Dec 24, 2016 10:22
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They were fleeing from the Huns, I think.
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Dec 24, 2016 10:34
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Doctor Malaver posted:But what made Visigoths leave their own land? Why did they need Rome to feed them? quote:Yet when the report spread widely among the other Gothic peoples, that a race of men hitherto unknown had now arisen from a hidden nook of the earth, like a tempest of snows from the high mountains, and was seizing or destroying everything in its way, the greater part of the people, who, worn out by lack of the necessities of life, had deserted Athanaricus, looked for a home removed from all knowledge of the savages; and after long deliberation what abode to choose they thought that Thrace offered them a convenient refuge, for two reasons: both because it has a very fertile soil, and because it is separated by the mighty flood of the Hister from the fields that were already exposed to the thunderbolts of a foreign war; and the rest of the nation as if with one mind agreed to this plan. Some Huns made trouble for the Tervingi and their leader Athanaric, so they basically abandoned him and attempted to cross into the Empire to get away from the Huns under the leadership of Alavivus and Fritigern. If there was more to the situation than that, we don't know it. Marcellinus gives us zero insight into why the Huns were fighting the Goths, he describes the Huns as these super-barbarians who don't have buildings or farms and are basically unreasoning beasts in human form who gently caress people over for the hell of it. So they just were fighting the Goths and beat them quite hard. So the Tervingi basically begged to be let into the empire. Marcellinus tells us that the Emperor Valens' court told him he should be pleased when he heard of the Tervingi massing on the Danube, because he could invite them in and enlist them in the army for his war against Persia. I can post more about how Marcellinus says the situation developed from there and why it turned into such a clusterfuck if anyone cares.
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Dec 24, 2016 13:45
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skasion posted:Some Huns made trouble for the Tervingi and their leader Athanaric, so they basically abandoned him and attempted to cross into the Empire to get away from the Huns under the leadership of Alavivus and Fritigern. If there was more to the situation than that, we don't know it. Marcellinus gives us zero insight into why the Huns were fighting the Goths, he describes the Huns as these super-barbarians who don't have buildings or farms and are basically unreasoning beasts in human form who gently caress people over for the hell of it. So they just were fighting the Goths and beat them quite hard. So the Tervingi basically begged to be let into the empire. Marcellinus tells us that the Emperor Valens' court told him he should be pleased when he heard of the Tervingi massing on the Danube, because he could invite them in and enlist them in the army for his war against Persia. I can post more about how Marcellinus says the situation developed from there and why it turned into such a clusterfuck if anyone cares. 
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Dec 24, 2016 15:04
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This post is really long So okay, there's a bunch of desperate refugees massed on the northern side of the Danube and the emperor decides they should be let in. Roman officials on site ferried the Tervingi across the river, but the effort wasn't well-coordinated. Many drowned and no serious attempt was made to assess how many people were crossing. The Roman general Lupicinus, who had the command of Thrace, went to take charge, but Marcellinus says he were more concerned with making money off the situation than actually making sure that everything worked, and drove the Tervingi to starvation and desperation by selling them food in exchange for their children as slaves. The situation was exacerbated by the fact that there were an absolute poo poo ton of people. We don't really know how many because the Romans couldn't be bothered to count them all. Peter Heather estimates about 60000 people with maybe 10000 fighters, but ultimately we have no basis for even guessing a number other than that it was really large. The general attempted to relocate the Tervingi so as to find some land for them to farm, but while their forces were occupied with that, the Greuthungi under Alatheus and Saphrax, another Gothic group beyond the Danube who were also having trouble with Huns, decided to take advantage of this opportunity to cross the border and seek Roman protection, even though their request that Valens shelter them had specifically been refused (probably because the Tervingi were so numerous that the Romans knew they couldn't deal with both groups at once). So they crossed the Danube and camped out on the Roman side of it. Possibly because he heard about this and was worried things were going to get out of hand, Lupicinus invited Alavivus and Fritigern to a party at Marcianople with the intention of murdering them. The Tervingi remained outside the town, but began to riot against the soldiers escorting them because there was a town right there and they wanted to go in and get food. Lupicinus ordered the execution of the Tervingi leaders at the party, but Fritigern convinced him that he had to go out to calm the rioters and talked his way right out of the city. Once there he promptly formed up his fighting men and began to pillage the surroundings of Marcianople. When Lupicinus mustered his own army to put a stop to that, the Tervingi fighters killed them and equipped themselves with their weapons and armor. Lupicinus ran away to hide in the city, and a bunch of pissed off but now heavily armed Tervingi were moving around Thrace plundering without any opposition. The basic problem facing the Tervingi hadn't changed. They did not have any sustainable means of support. They didn't have any lands to farm or any subjects to tax. They couldn't take fortified towns because they lacked the logistical capacity to stay in one place. So they essentially took to wandering around the Balkans killing and looting whatever they could just to survive. Some people in the region decided to join them -- Marcellinus tells of two Gothic leaders who were already loyal Roman commanders stationed at Adrianople, but received such abuse from the local Romans in the wake of the Tervingi revolt that they fought their way out of the city and went to ally their forces to Fritigern. Gothic slaves and the poor and desperate from Roman society flocked to the rebels, who continued to pillage the countryside, probably by splitting up into smaller bands since they were now more numerous than ever. And the Greuthungi seem to have joined in this raiding too. So the situation was a huge mess. The people that Rome had originally admitted into the empire were in open revolt, Roman subjects were throwing in with them, uninvited foreigners had crossed the borders on their own initiative, and the Roman army assigned to defend the region had been butchered. Emperor Valens finally heard of this and realized how serious the situation had become. He immediately began to negotiate with the Persians, relocated his court from Antioch to Constantinople, and contacted the Western Roman Emperor, his nephew Gratian, to ask him to help out. A joint western and eastern Roman army fought a bloody battle against a large Gothic group without any major change to the status quo: the Goths continued to raid throughout Thrace and the eastern Romans continued to struggle to defend their territory. They got limited support from the west because the western armies and Gratian himself were distracted by an invasion of the Alamanni on the Rhine which, however, he successfully quelled. He then began to move east to take on the Goths in person. Valens had only just arrived at Constantinople, where he struggled to get his army into fighting shape, and Marcellinus alleges that he was very jealous of this success. When Valens heard that one of his own generals had won a skirmish against a Gothic raiding party, he was still more jealous (although there was plenty of reason for a militarily unsuccessful emperor to worry about a more successful subordinate) and made up his mind to fight against the Goths and win on his own. Valens and his army marched to Adrianople, where they had heard around ten thousand Goths were headed. Fritigern himself was present with these Goths, and sent a Christian elder to negotiate with Valens (himself a Christian, as all emperors were by this time), saying that if Valens made an appropriate show of force he could convince his Goths to surrender and be received into the empire properly. Valens didn't believe Fritigern was sincere, though it's at least possible that he was -- he had nothing to gain by continuing to fight, since he could not seize permanent control of territory -- and he sent the elder away without agreeing. Fritigern then sent a message to Alatheus, Saphrax, and the Greuthungi, asking them to join forces with him right away. Fritigern still didn't want to fight, and made further overtures to Valens, but both armies seem to have been more aggressive. A Roman detachment charged in, were repulsed, and as they retreated were struck by Alatheus and Saphrax with a large body of cavalry. From there the battle developed into a total debacle. There were a lot more Goths than Valens had anticipated, even before the Greuthungi arrived, and he seems to have had a hard time controlling his army. The left wing got drawn into a charge and collapsed, then pretty much the whole army got encircled and slaughtered. Valens' body was never found and probably the majority of the entire military of the eastern empire was destroyed. This was a huge disaster for the eastern empire, but ironically it did nothing at all to improve the Goths' position because what they ultimately needed was land to settle on, and only a living emperor could give them that. The Goths attempted to besiege Adrianople, and then Constantinople, but failed to do either. Marcellinus chose to end his history here so we actually know very little about how the war concluded. Gratian arrived on the scene not long after, and gave the Spanish general Theodosius command of the armies in the region, which de facto elevated him to the position of eastern emperor. Theodosius also suffered a couple of defeats at Gothic hands before finally coming to a settlement with the Goths' leaders: something to the effect that they'd remain in the empire and supply troops for the imperial armies, but by and large would live as a united, semi-autonomous community rather than being divided up in the existing provinces of the empire. The details of this agreement are not clear, some historians figure there was never a formal treaty and the war just kind of petered out due to lack of anything to actually be gained by fighting. So that's the Gothic War right there. Six years of fighting, a Roman emperor killed in battle, three Roman armies wiped out, the entirety of the Balkans plundered repeatedly, cities besieged without ever being actually sacked, poor Romans and slaves gladly abandoning their society to join a mob of the angry and dispossessed in ravaging the countryside, and in the end nothing positive accomplished beyond what the Romans had originally planned to do, had their officials not been too greedy to properly carry it out.
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Dec 24, 2016 16:14
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Thanks, that was interesting.
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Dec 24, 2016 18:35
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skasion posted:So that's the Gothic War right there. That was great, cheers.
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Dec 24, 2016 21:53
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Whenever you read about Romans choosing to throw in with the Goths and join the pillaging, I imagine them all putting on trousers and growing moustaches - like post-apocalyptic bandits suddenly all choosing to get mohawks and wear armour covered in spikes and made out of motorcycle tyres.
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Dec 24, 2016 22:03
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Its incredible to think their version of Lord Humongous looked like my dad.
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Dec 24, 2016 22:08
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mossyfisk posted:Whenever you read about Romans choosing to throw in with the Goths and join the pillaging, I imagine them all putting on trousers and growing moustaches - like post-apocalyptic bandits suddenly all choosing to get mohawks and wear armour covered in spikes and made out of motorcycle tyres. Post-Gothic Wars Roman teenagers dressed in trousers and grew mustaches as symbols of punk rebellion, so this checks out.
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Dec 24, 2016 22:27
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fwiw I'm really enjoying your podcast Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Dec 25, 2016 |
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Dec 25, 2016 04:32
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Who has a podcast now?
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Dec 25, 2016 08:49
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skasion posted:So that's the Gothic War right there. Six years of fighting, a Roman emperor killed in battle, three Roman armies wiped out, the entirety of the Balkans plundered repeatedly, cities besieged without ever being actually sacked, poor Romans and slaves gladly abandoning their society to join a mob of the angry and dispossessed in ravaging the countryside, and in the end nothing positive accomplished beyond what the Romans had originally planned to do, had their officials not been too greedy to properly carry it out. I don't know about anyone else, the complete ineptitude and idiocy of the Romans in dealing with the Gothic migrants and its hugely destructive outcome is not helping me stop drawing comparisons with the current refugee crisis; quite the opposite, in fact.
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Dec 26, 2016 00:32
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Germany in the 21st century has this looming problem: an ageing, shrinking population, a dark future where they literally won't have enough people wiping the butts of pensioners, powering their industrial economy, or paying taxes into their social welfare systems to keep everything going. But a magic solution has arrived! The Syrian crisis has provided hundreds of thousands of people who are willing to work and ready to earn a place in German society, therefore abnegating the German problems. However, the Germans seem to be hell bent on ruining this opportunity with xenophobia. Definitely reminds me of how prosperous and strong 4th century Thrace could have been, if it had been filled with hardy Germanic soldier-farmers ready to defend their new land against outsiders.
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Dec 26, 2016 11:55
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I think the scales of migration in proportion to the host population are very differently proportioned. Also the Goths and co were looking for a new homeland, while (at least in theory) today's refugees might be expected/forced to return home once it's 'safe'. Unlike Rome, NATO has absolutely no trouble keeping up enough military power to protect itself. Which could change rapidly, but yeah. It still demonstrates that alienating people and failing to integrate them is one of the most stupid things you can do.
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Dec 26, 2016 12:59
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skasion posted:This post is really good. Thanks for posting that!
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Dec 26, 2016 13:21
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Could you D&D retards go back to D&D.
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Dec 26, 2016 13:27
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The presence of Gothic peoples within the Empire is also part of what gave Attila his casus belli, so there were reasons for the Romans to try to avoid entangling themselves in nomad politics. Of course, it's true that they probably couldn't really have stopped them in the first place.
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Dec 26, 2016 19:34
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Fuligin posted:The presence of Gothic peoples within the Empire is also part of what gave Attila his casus belli, so there were reasons for the Romans to try to avoid entangling themselves in nomad politics. Of course, it's true that they probably couldn't really have stopped them in the first place. Hmm yes, it was actually the Romans' fault that Attila invaded Rome. Go back to watching Hun Today, troll.
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Dec 26, 2016 19:56
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IM RETARDED IDIOT 'DARE' FROM TRIBALWARS
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Dec 26, 2016 20:25
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cool
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Dec 26, 2016 20:33
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Nice dog. Anyway, I've got some time to read, please recommend some books. I've got SPQR, so no need to put that on the list. Maybe something about the eastern part of the empire.
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Dec 26, 2016 20:40
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KateKonitzer posted:Here"s a photo of me: The first thing I thought of when I saw the picture was this. 
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Dec 26, 2016 20:49
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JaucheCharly posted:Nice dog. I received Tim Whitmarsh's Battling the Gods: Atheism in the Ancient World for Christmas, which has turned out to be precisely the book I never knew I wanted. Its focus is on Greece but it extends to about the fourth or fifth century AD, so plenty of interaction with Rome if that's more your cup of tea.
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Dec 26, 2016 21:50
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Arglebargle III posted:Hmm yes, it was actually the Romans' fault that Attila invaded Rome. Go back to watching Hun Today, troll. I think he said "causus belli", not "fault."
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Dec 26, 2016 21:54
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Fuligin posted:The presence of Gothic peoples within the Empire is also part of what gave Attila his casus belli, so there were reasons for the Romans to try to avoid entangling themselves in nomad politics. Of course, it's true that they probably couldn't really have stopped them in the first place. Romans didn't try to avoid entangling themselves in barbarian politics at all, just to dominate them by empowering some (hopefully friendly) leaders to obtain power over others. The tradition of barbarian detachments in the Roman army was older than the principate. If anything the Gothic war increased the prominence of such groups since it simultaneously depleted Roman manpower and showed the potential that decently equipped and led "barbarians" had as a military and political force. This couldn't have happened if Romans didn't have a long history of bringing in foreigners to fight with the promise of money, power, and security within the empire. There was very little unusual about Valens' choice to bring in the Tervingi, apart from the sheer number of people involved.
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Dec 26, 2016 22:21
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skasion posted:Romans didn't try to avoid entangling themselves in barbarian politics at all, just to dominate them by empowering some (hopefully friendly) leaders to obtain power over others. The tradition of barbarian detachments in the Roman army was older than the principate. If anything the Gothic war increased the prominence of such groups since it simultaneously depleted Roman manpower and showed the potential that decently equipped and led "barbarians" had as a military and political force. This couldn't have happened if Romans didn't have a long history of bringing in foreigners to fight with the promise of money, power, and security within the empire. There was very little unusual about Valens' choice to bring in the Tervingi, apart from the sheer number of people involved. Oh, I know, just pointing out that the disastrous consequences stretched beyond the immediate devastation of Thrace and the Balkans. In general I find the interplay between the two cultures really fascinating, especially since even prior to becoming foederati barbarians along the frontier were often highly Romanized, particularly in the noble class. This is a great account of the Gothic wars in general, for anyone interested.
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Dec 26, 2016 22:44
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